Baneling + other protoss proposals

So recent patch notes have nerfed centrifugal hooks to no longer give banelings +5 health, and instead costs 50/50 less. I dislike this change because I am a zerg player, but ALSO because I think it will impact ZvT far greater than ZvP, as bio can now kill banelings noticeably easier, but banelings can still roll through storm with 1 hit left.

Alternatively, I suggest nerfing baneling upgrade damage from +2 (+2 vs light) to +1(+1 vs light).

The intention of this change is to stop banelings with +2 melee from one shotting probes. Previously a baneling would do 43 damage to a probe with +2 melee, but with this change it would do 39. Of course, this means that +3 melee banelings would still one shot 0 armour probes, but this comes so late in the game that it can be circumvented by armor upgrades (+3 banelings would deal 41 vs 0/0 probes).

This change impacts midgame harassment in ZvP where zerg would often rush +2 melee just to run banelings into protoss mineral lines throughout the game, which is a form of harassment that’s inexpensive and easy to execute, but very unforgiving for the protoss if miscontrolled. On the other hand, this change will affect ZvT, a “balanced” matchup, far less than -5 health on banelings would and actually creates noticeable gameplay differences for protoss while keeping a net damage nerf on the baneling, a unit many felt was generally too strong.

Furthermore, I would like to pitch some buffs to underused protoss units: the tempest and the voidray. I was actually pretty surprised when I saw that neither of these units were being changed to be more viable with the recent patch, especially given the current state of protoss.

First, I would suggest to either lower the gas cost or supply of the tempest. Currently it is basically non existent in ZvP, idk about other matchups, but like if a protoss is ever building tempests I just feel like he’s bm’ing me or giving me a free win. Both corruptors and hydralisks hard counter it, and abduct and neural are also great against it. It’s great against broods, but broods have been falling out of favour, not really due to tempests but just the threat of double prism backstabds and it being such a slow unit. Reducing gas cost or supply is a meaningful buff for a unit that imo just sucks and is not really competitively viable.

Although the voidray is seen sometimes in ZvP, it’s usually just 1 to clear overlords/try to deny a base. My suggestion is really just to revert it to the WoL version that gained damage the longer it attacked. I know it’s generally remembered as a low league rage inducing cheese unit, but hear me out:

The direction they seem to be taking for the current voidray is to be that of a threat which armoured units like corruptors and stalkers just can’t fight as long as prismatic alignment is active. I believe this is bad design because:

  1. Prismatic alignment discourages kiting, since it slows the voidray, therefore there is less to gain by kiting with it.
  2. It makes voidray interaction linear. Basically gameplay involving it devolves into trying to bait prismatic alignment, waiting till it wears off, and reengaging before it’s off cooldown. It comes off as a mundane interaction because there’s really not a lot to do on the protoss’ side.

However the old voidray was better designed because:

  1. Once you had full charge, you could kite with them kind of like mutas, but with way faster attack speed, which could be cool to watch similar to how mutas can look like they don’t stop moving if kiting perfectly. If say the protoss charges their voids on some rocks and then catches the zerg army unaware, they can actively kite voids toward enemy roaches/corruptors rather than being like “alright, since I used the ability I’m supposed to use, you get a free escape”.
  2. Gameplay involving the voidray is no longer linear, both sides now have reason to micro vs/with voidrays. Protoss is encouraged to kite to maximize dps with their flux vane voidrays, lest their charge wears off and more units have to tank for them next fight while they charge back up. On the other hand, zerg still has the incentive of retreating and waiting till the voidrays calmdown, but they are further encouraged to fight voidrays in skirmishes and with abducts, which seems to be the way Blizzard wants zerg to fight current voidrays anyway. Instead of a 25 second window where voidrays get destroyed by the unit they’re supposed to counter, change that window to “whenever they’re not fighting”.
  3. The gameplay issues of the WoL voidrays are largely gone. Corruptors and hydralisks have both been buffed, and abduct and parasitic bomb would also be phenomenal vs voidrays. Furthermore, thor anti air has been buffed, vikings have been buffed, and the introduction of the widow mine and cyclone both serve as answers to WoL voidrays. Sure the stats would need to be tweaked, perhaps remove the bonus vs massive as it conflicts with tempests, but is, imo, the better designed unit.

Protosses have always dreamed of the golden armada, these changes to the voidray and tempest would make that style more viable without touching protoss ground units, thereby keeping the midgame vulnerability of that style largely intact. It is also the intention of these changes to minimally affect, PvT, but I am not as familiar with that matchup so feel free to let me know if I missed something there.

Feedback is appreciated, whether you agree or think my ideas are terrible :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Baneling harassment is not cheap and is often less rewarding than it’s worth.

Consider that a baneling costs 50/25 (25 for the zergling, then 25/25 for the upgrade).

To do baneling drops or runbys, you normally bring groups of like 6-8 banelings, often more. So let’s assume that you only bring 6. That would be 300/150.

Now how many probes do you have to kill for this to break even. If we assume that gas is 2x the value of minerals, then the resource value of this is 600. You need to kill 12 probes for this to break even.

Now this is POSSIBLE, but note: you’ve JUST broken even in resources. At that stage in the game, breaking even in resources doesn’t even mean it’s paid for itself, because you have an opportunity cost in army value or expansions or upgrades. Or just basically larva - you have to justify the loss of 3 drones on your side. Let’s say that to make it worth it, you need just 20% more value than the breakeven to justify delaying an expansion or an upgrade. This is very generous because an expansion or upgrade is a very powerful thing as a zerg.

Then that means you need to kill about 14 workers to make a runby worth it.

That’s almost the entire mineral line. For edge bases, it’s often less, since these aren’t always fully saturated when the banelings get there.

Do zerg players CONSISTENTLY get the entire mineral line in a runby? No. Even literally the best zergs on the planet, when they run banelings into the line, don’t often get 14 workers in one go. Often they miss a few, if it’s not entirely shutdown. With numbers pulled from my butt, I would say it’s about 50/50 that they get value from it.

All you need is a block, a worker pull, or a couple of splits and you can make the baneling bust not worth it at all.

Now compare this to say, a Hellion runby. About 4 hellions costs 400 resources as compared to the 600 effective resources in 6 banes. 4 hellions need to kill about 8 workers to break even.

Does this happen CONSISTENTLY at the pro level? Well hell yeah. Even against literally the best zergs on the planet, we see 4 hellions get to roast about 8 drones before dying. Queens can’t stop it. Oh queens can kill the hellions, but not before they roast the drones. Spines can’t stop it. Oh spines may kill the hellions in their range, but only if they stay there long enough. And not fast enough to stop them from roasting drones. Not even cannons can stop YOLO hellions from killing a mineral line.

And unlike banes, hellions don’t tie up your scv production. They don’t have a cascading effect where building hellions kills your worker saturation which slows your expansions. They also add scouting value - banes don’t.

Leave the baneling anti-light damage alone.

1 Like

That’s not how economic harass works at all. You’re supposed to kill workers/bases to get an income advantage. The idea that you have to kill the exact same monetary value of workers is dumb.

If we followed this logic, then all those resonating glaives openers at katowitce are thoeretically useless since by your standards since an adept requires 3 drones by your standard. Usually, there are about 8-12 adepts meaning you need 24 drones to break even (If adepts complete a shade, it’s more likley than not that they won’t be making it out alive). 10 drone kills on a glaives opening is justified as very good, and it doesnt take much more (13-16 drones) to outright cripple a zerg. Is that 24 drones? No. Is it still effective? Yes.

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You’re talking about harasses at different points in the game though.

Early game? You’re right, you can’t quantify directly based on minerals. ESPECIALLY if you’re harassing zerg BECAUSE zerg needs an economy advantage to win.

Mid / Late game? Dude, if you keep throwing away 12 adepts and you’re only getting a dozen drones each time? Throw them away as many times as you can. I have enough hatcheries and larva to get those back for days.

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Yeah but worker kills are often a secondary in the lategame. The main aim is to kill bases.

Well then you’re changing the parameters of what I’m commenting against.

I’m commenting against the topic poster saying baneling runbys are inexpensive midgame harassment. They’re not.

Yes they are.

A worker isn’t just 50 minerals, its income as well. If you kill a worker, you directly kill the opponent’s income.

Again, that depends on what point of the game we’re talking about.

12 SCVs lost in early game? that’s crippling.

12 SCVs lost in midgame? the number of times casters have said “yeah well terran has mules” is already at meme status.

12 probes lost in early game? that’s crippling.

12 probes lost when it’s 3 base against 3 mining bases? The supply had better count, toss is likely gonna be out on the map by now.

12 drones lost in early game? Zerg will gg out immediately.

12 drones lost on the zerg’s new fourth? The drones will be back in like 12 seconds.

Topic poster specfically talked about inexpensive midgame harassment. It’s not.

2 Likes

I agree 100% with this post. I appreciate Blizzard trying but a good summary of this patch is basically trying to fix PvZ but instead just breaking TvZ. These changes will not change much of anything in PvZ.

On the same topic, Queen nerf will also impact ZvT more than ZvP…

It feels like those changes were put up by a Gold League Terran playing intern. There’s no other explanation. They openly admit that TvZ is in a very healthy spot, and then nerf Zerg’s two most important ZvT core units, while ZvP remains questionable.

I have a hard time seeing those changes go live in their current form.

1 Like

Agree. And I have some faith because the last proposed changes were arguably more ridiculous (lol double cost double dps IT) but mostly was reasonable after testing (except the Observer speed nerf that even made T and Z go wtf?)

Just my personal proposal for Protoss for this patch
Protoss Carrier
Passive: Turret Firing
Ability: Multitargeting (durational) (not an Upgrade)
Allows the Carrier to target multiple targets up to 3 targets via the Interceptors. During the duration of the ability, the Carrier would automatically target 2 other targets accordingly to its priority targeting. The rate of fire of Interceptors during this duration increases. This would allow Carriers be a viable build path from the mid-to-late game in defending against enemy waves during engagement, simply due to the increased durational damage output per second, though this may be debatable.
Note: For Carriers, its failure to transition into is due to the fact that its inherent inability to defend itself on its own is a major flaw, unlike the Terran Battlecruiser which have the Tactical Jump ability. Multitargeting and increased rate of fire may address this issue.

Protoss Nexus
Change Battery Overcharge to Shield Overcharge
Ability: Shield Overcharge (durational) (Upgrade)
Allows the Nexus to reduce incoming damage by a certain amount to all friendly units and buildings within a certain radius from it during the duration of the ability. Certain enemy spells may be ineffective to friendly units and buildings during the duration. This would allow defending the third and consequent bases less difficult for Protoss, and Terran Ghost may be more counterable.
Note: This may seem that Shield Battery may be redundant but in retrospect, this would make Protoss third and consequent bases be less costly to defend, as Shield Battery may be used more as proxies. This idea was inspired from the Planetary Fortress Upgrade of the Terran Command Center.

Protoss Colossus
Ability: Thermal Lance Overload (durational) (not an Upgrade)
Allows the Collosus to increase its rate of fire during the duration of the ability, similar to Terran Stimpacks. This would significantly make Collosus to be a more viable build instead of Immortals for mid-to-late game engagements, in addition to a better harassment play by quickly melting down the enemy mineral lines and buildings.
Note: Rarely saw a tactical play for Collosus, so this ability may make it more favorable.

Protoss Disruptor
Toggle Ability: Purification Nova / Disruption Web (durational) (not an Upgrade)
All enemy ground units and structures under the Disruption Web cannot attack. Can be set to autocast. This ability would allow a more aggressive play for Protoss in engaging enemy units.
Note: I miss the Protoss Corsair unit, so this is a throwback to that. And the ability matches the name, so why not?