I think Thors could actually be a good lead for this. But it depends on which difficulty is canon.
My head says that canon ending is Brutal with most achievements possible.
You’re right. I guess because Covert 3b: Ghost of a Chance isn’t canon anyway, we can neglect the events of that mission. I’ve reverted to your order before with changes bolded.
Corrected:
- Mar Sara 1: Liberation Day
Old Times (cinematic) - Mar Sara 2: The Outlaws
- Mar Sara 3: Zero Hour
Escape from Mar Sara (cinematic) - Colonist 1: The Evacuation
- Colonist 2: Outbreak
- Artifact 1: Smash and Grab
Queen of Blades (cinematic) - Covert 1: The Devil’s Playground
- Colonist 3a. Safe Haven (canon)
Good Man (cinematic) - Covert 2: Welcome to the Jungle
- Artifact 2: The Dig
Zeratul’s Warning (cinematic)
The Prophecy (cinematic) - Prophecy 1: Whispers of Doom
- Covert 3a. Breakout
A Better Tomorrow (cinematic) - Prophecy 2: A Sinister Turn
- Artifact 3: The Moebius Factor
The Betrayal (cinematic)
…Who We Choose to Be (cinematic) - Rebellion 1: The Great Train Robbery
- Rebellion 2: Cutthroat
- Rebellion 3: Engine of Destruction
- Rebellion 4: Media Blitz
Hearts and Minds (cinematic) - Rebellion 5: Piercing the Shroud
- Prophecy 3: Echoes of the Future
- Artifact 4: Supernova
Heir Apparent (cinematic) - Prophecy 4: In Utter Darkness
- Artifact 5: Maw of the Void
Bar Fight (cinematic)
Dangerous Game (cinematic) - Final 1: Gates of Hell
Card to Play (cinematic) - Final 2a: Belly of the Beast (canon)
Fire and Fury (cinematic) - All In
Showdown (cinematic)
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Basically yu are occupying a false dilemma implying that visiting Korhal means the risk of shakuras, despite you the unknown travel times of Artanis and Amon in front Artanis ye have information obtained by the sacrifice of many protos by an honorable protoss that he warned about danger of invasion(also guided Tassadar, Artanis’s mentor), Zeratul is not talking about a trip of Acid, Artanis has shared what he saw, the object is easy to steal, it measures only 1 m(shakuras won’t move), it is not so vague this promises the Xelnaga and its technology as allies (Zeratul says that it will allow the Xelnagas to be found), we also add some us position that Artanis is conceited that Kerrigan destroyed the defense of the planet, they are in a period of political transition
you forget that thing that you killed zerg on a planetary level, that tolerated an invasion years ago, is implied by the dialogues that part of the failure at least in such a short time was the product of being invaded by surprise by means of the wargates besides that it is something not foreseen by Artanis that allowed Amon to arrive before the
This dialogue expresses need, not a travel logistics does not tell us if there is time to go to Korhal or not, only explains that arriving before AMon is a priority, not a scheme that aMon can overcome SoA if Artanis goes Korhal or that Amon will prioritize effort to arrive to Shakuras) who needs to arrive is Artanis because they are part of his people and still free(about the campaign it is stated that Amon can tolerate delays and is sweeping many other worlds simultaneously and he’s pretty sure he can’t be stopped the nerazim at that point don’t differ from any other tech faction)
Unless the power of the ship is weakened, difficulties can be foreseen, even Zeratul contemplates a small possibility of conflict if Jim for any reason refused, if he told what happened in the mission, which is a Terran faction, the robbery and they had That getting involved in a battle as a small ship would have dealt with these scenarios, the question of what you consider is illogical with the simple fact that Artanis never contemplated this possibility in any of the branch he decided to have the backing of his only army at this time, and If we talk about the purpose of the ark with “End in Fire” the purpose of the ark was to flee, not to think as a warship, Artanis used the ark according to its purpose because there was hope in the artifact and the purified project and finally with the Taldarim alliance
check the later cutescena Artnais does not doubt Zeratul and basically participated in his experiences via telepathy, you want to erase that Zeratul has been an important character during all wars and not only did he find this on an acid trip or a forgotten parchment he has gone to all The points of the galaxy gathering information with portoss sacrificing lives for him
That will not happen because whatever option you take Artanis decides to support the recovery of the artifact in person and with the support of his new army .just your “most” rational plan cannot happen according to any canon
Follow the White Rabbit to: The Good Son (film) climax scene
You continue to ignore that Shakuras is a fortified planet, with a superweapon that kills zerg, which we later know was taken by the back door that doesn’t exactly leave civilians out in the open as a sacrifice. Sun Tzu also says that you are as strong as your weakest link, your weakest link is the artifact since its protectors are weaker and as history has shown several times it is an easy target to get lost in addition to counting as an object. vital info from a reliable source(zeratul
My favorite shor story
not only shows collective suffering but also collective stoicism control of emotions to control before stressful situations and not succumb
here two deviations ago, does he fight for something vital? first the artifact is vital, it is not like zeratul is a fortune teller, he has been a vital advisor before in broodwar, he obtained information for years and not only did he talk about it, he shared it psychically with Artanis (and second insists on implying that rescue of the artifact would mean the collapse of Shakuras from the perspective of Artanis without knowing the planetary routes and assuming that Artanis’ fear means towards something immediate or inevitable if he does not part of the trip now or only something predictable including His reasonable assumption that it is a quick stop, because he knows that the artifact is with allies. And you are assuming that the rescue of the artifact that is supposed to be at the moment we have the zeratul information of the mission, is only to collect the artifact, It would mean an impermissible delay, while previous history, as common sense has shown that the artifact has not remained in the same place for long, to be delayed by the unexpected events of the Hybrid force in the terran capital would coincide with being late after AMon when he wanted to arrive he wanted to arrive earlier, although the idea of the xelnaga portals as a superior journey still revolves around
I am well versed in protoss and SC in general I have read the manual several times, although my memory is not photographic, I continually wander on the wiki for new fun, but it has nothing to do with what I am saying: you are forcing the narrative of the Protoss lives are too valuable, when they are continually sacrificed for the common good or traditions, we really have an interesting conflict in the Carrier story.
this is basically my point
!end in fire! and legacy of void makes it clear that Artanis is not using the ark for the purpose for which it was conceived, the ark was designed to escape and protect its passengers not for
sustain a war, which was the reason why only 3 were built, as it was clearly an appropriate point given the nature of the threat since the navy had its own super ships
And my argument was based on the existence of this ignorance, because when we ignore we cannot suppose that reaching a quick mission means an obstacle (before you find out that you have to fight for the artifact or to save the terrans) remember the protoss empire is the minus 1/16 and at best 1/8 (manual) of the universe part of the universe and travel technology is superior, as every terran faction is in the shadow of the protoss empire if they are aware and the meaning of the distance differs for the protoss
knows that the force Amon knows that they will attack everything and all species
Zeratul : I have witnessed the [end of all things]… Horrific legion of Hybrid razing world upon world. In the darkness, lording over them, shadowy form… Amon.
Artanis expresses his trust in him and that it was the social pressure that made him put the invasion of Aiur in the first place_
Zeratul not only talks about a specific one that the artifact will get allies of the same level of AMOn and this is vital
Artanis : I have always trusted you, Zeratul. But the burdens of leadership demanded much of me. There are times when I am uncertain whether I was truly ready for such weight.
Blockquote Zeratul : * This vision was a [benevolent one], as if an ancient voice called out from beyond. “The [Keystone] shall usher you unto hope…”
- Artanis : Keystone?
- Zeratul : I saw a burst of light, revealing the Xel’Naga Artifact on the [terran]world of [Korhal].
Zeratul telepathically shows Artanis an image of the Keystone.- Zeratul : It is the Keystone of this vision. The Prophecies speak of Xel’Naga standing against Amon in the end times. I believe this Keystone will guide us to them.
Last word zeratul
Zeratul : The Keystone… will guide you… to the xel’naga…
We are not talking about despicable allies the xel’naga have a mythical air but they are something real for the protoss and they are superior to them, and AMon is living evidence
decaying in deteriorated condition
exactly the argument rests on we do not know this because of the spatial temporal sense that they pose to determine that arriving Shakuras and visiting Korhal is viable does not exist equally, we only know that the artifact is an object that can be stolen, as spectators we have seen it get lost 2 times so having it at this time in the hands of an ally when its recovery does not represent a waste of resources and time is the ideal moment since it is for a few hours apart could mean permanent loss
The question is with this idea of a plan for a special mission is that it contradicts the game, since in no option Artanis chooses to relegate the work of collecting the artifact, which is not a delayed wrong decision but addresses the possibility that the things is complicated by a conflict such as Moebius’s assault or Dominio’s refusal to hand over the artifact
In a battle equalizing Terran and Protoss forces will always carry this logic that one Protoss soldier equals tens of humans.So the numerical difference does not play against Shakuras in comparison to the terran capital, and also forget that Kerrigan was in charge of disabling the planetary defenses, and reduced the military forces of the planet, so we speak of a proportion of civilians, if anti-orbital systems or other defensive structures
It is not head cano that for the case both options are headcanon at this point, I am pointing out the relevance of the artifact (as well as the weakness of its guardians, such as the ease of getting lost) and the existence of a false dilemma since it implies that choosing krohal is to leave Shakuras when you have already pointed out that you do not know the travel times and dispositions of the planets in the galactic plane, such as the obvious lack of knowledge that Amon would occupy the Wargate to arrive before
So? It wasn’t like his data is any better than anyone else. The only difference is how he/she reference them (We don’t use that method because over the year, it’s clear that we’re all crazy; just saying that in ‘this obscure comic’ and everybody is on the same page). The problem here is that he/she might run away again.
Since I still don’t know what you and Gradius were talking about except prematurely terminate the discussion I will drive him/her away again. I will keep rejecting his/her idea. I will keep dismissing his speculation. I will not change the way I reference my information. Seeing as his/her argument isn’t any better, the outcome is probably the same. Do you want that?
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It does. That’s why we’re debating this in the first place.
So even if you find it, you still have to launch a separate mission to go find the Xel’Naga? Way too big of an investment for some piece of cr@p alien technology that may or may not lead you to Xel’Naga who may or may not be alive and who may or may not choose to help you and who may or may not actually win.
All while innocent civilians could potentially be put to the torch for this delay.
Needs citation. My headcanon is that the Uraj wasn’t able to be used because the khala was corrupted and the protoss couldn’t channel khala energy directly anymore.
Tbh I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.
The bottom line is that the urgency exists with Shakuras, but there is none with the artifact if we go by Artanis’s dialog.
Where? No he doesn’t. He believes Jim will just hand the artifact over.
Zeratul was still wrong in the end (all the Xel’Naga were dead), and Artanis has no reason to assume Zeratul is infallible. Can you imagine Zeratul asking Artanis to go rescue an object instead of his own people? 
Yes it can. It’s completely possible he sent a ship after picking Shakuras first, and the ship got shot down over Korhal, forcing him to go with the Spear personally.
And we know that he would prefer to send one ship instead of his whole army because he already tried it by asking Zeratul to go with his ship.
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Can we admit that at the end of the day the artifact is just an object at worst and valuable military target at best? Assaulting a military target does not guarantee any outcome and should never supersede safeguarding your civilians. That’s putting the cart before the horse.
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Sure, after we know what it is, though.
Yes, but that’s known afterward.
In that case, it doesn’t make sense to let go of the innocent son who hasn’t done anything wrong and can still help you later down the road (i.e., Mark).
You continue to ignore that Shakuras is a fortified planet, with a superweapon that kills zerg, which we later know was taken by the back door that doesn’t exactly leave civilians out in the open as a sacrifice.
Not as fortified before because Artanis took a part of their Shadow Guard. For the Xel’Naga temple superweapon, I’m not sure if Artanis knew at the time the specifics of reactivating it again and whether it’d have the same effect. That part is unknown.
Sun Tzu also says that you are as strong as your weakest link, your weakest link is the artifact since its protectors are weaker and as history has shown several times it is an easy target to get lost in addition to counting as an object. vital info from a reliable source(zeratul
The weakest link is the Daelaam on the SOA, not Shakuras. Have you forgotten about bolstering numbers? There’s < 100k zealots in stasis on SOA and 6 billion people on Korhal with the Dominion having rebuilt itself in the last 8 months. On the other hand, Artanis knows how much troops Vorazun spared for Aiur’s reclamation.
not only shows collective suffering but also collective stoicism control of emotions to control before stressful situations and not succumb
Because it was their job to record their knowledge for each one who died. Did you forget how those 8463 crew members felt when they died?
Anger. Rage. It exploded among the crews. Many onboard had dreamed of a glorious death on the battlefield, not this. Not a meaningless end due to an accident.
here two deviations ago, does he fight for something vital? first the artifact is vital, it is not like zeratul is a fortune teller, he has been a vital advisor before in broodwar, he obtained information for years and not only did he talk about it, he shared it psychically with Artanis (and second insists on implying that rescue of the artifact would mean the collapse of Shakuras from the perspective of Artanis without knowing the planetary routes and assuming that Artanis’ fear means towards something immediate or inevitable if he does not part of the trip now or only something predictable including
Sorry, hard to read this paragraph.
If Artanis cared about his history with Zeratul together in Brood War and gave weight to the new info that Zeratul, he would’ve listened to him before the reclamation of Aiur. He didn’t.
His reasonable assumption that it is a quick stop, because he knows that the artifact is with allies.
Yes, which comes back to why he should’ve sent a ship to pick it up instead of having the entire SOA go there.
And you are assuming that the rescue of the artifact that is supposed to be at the moment we have the zeratul information of the mission, is only to collect the artifact, It would mean an impermissible delay, while previous history, as common sense has shown that the artifact has not remained in the same place for long, to be delayed by the unexpected events of the Hybrid force in the terran capital would coincide with being late after AMon when he wanted to arrive he wanted to arrive earlier, although the idea of the xelnaga portals as a superior journey still revolves around
Neither Artanis and Zeratul knew of how often the Keystone changed hands during WOL and HOTS, so this is irrelevant.
you are forcing the narrative of the Protoss lives are too valuable, when they are continually sacrificed for the common good or traditions, we really have an interesting conflict in the Carrier story.
Can you please tell me what good it will do for the Daelaam if Shakuras civilians sacrifice themselves without doing anything when they can live another day to fight for the Daelaam in a better capacity on the SOA?
Of course, you’re right that the Protoss are willing to sacrifice themselves for glory in battle or whatever, but there needs to be some kind of value in their sacrifice. Like I’ve said before, Protoss aren’t going to mindlessly suicide themselves if it’s not going to benefit the collective at all.
this is basically my point
Yes, so you agree that Artanis would follow his teachings to save every Protoss life? Protoss cannot achieve honour if they don’t die taking down an enemy, protecting a key objective, or destroying a key objective. If they can’t do so, then it’s acceptable to run away so your actions can be more effective. This is why Protoss evacuation ships existed in SC, BW, and recently in HOTS: Shoot the Messenger and Enemy Within.
!end in fire! and legacy of void makes it clear that Artanis is not using the ark for the purpose for which it was conceived, the ark was designed to escape and protect its passengers not for
sustain a war,
The ark wasn’t designed for war? Why are < 100k zealots onboard, why does there a Star Forge exist for making exoskeletons / ships, and why can it use Orbital Strikes / Solar Lances / Purifier Beams onto planets?
And my argument was based on the existence of this ignorance, because when we ignore we cannot suppose that reaching a quick mission means an obstacle (before you find out that you have to fight for the artifact or to save the terrans) remember the protoss empire is the minus 1/16 and at best 1/8 (manual) of the universe part of the universe and travel technology is superior, as every terran faction is in the shadow of the protoss empire if they are aware and the meaning of the distance differs for the protoss
Arguments are weak to me if your main point is based on what-ifs and lacks data. It’s all conjecture. I don’t know where you got those 1/8 and 1/16 numbers from.
knows that the force Amon knows that they will attack everything and all species
No, because then there’d be more urgency in his dialogue to Korhal if he thought Amon would attack it quickly. Again, population numbers wins the decision. There are more meat shields on Korhal to defend a key objective than saving the rest of your own people.
I can’t think of any successful military example where it was more beneficial to double down on continuing your offensive campaign when your all-in attack was a catastrophic failure. The best course of action for all military groups is to retreat back to the homeworld to regroup, resupply, and replan.
I never said Xel’naga could be a risky military force. Also, keywords here are “end times”. It makes no sense to secure the Keystone first if your army can’t even make it during the “now” times.
decaying in deteriorated condition
Thanks, but my intended point is that there’s no need to speak like a novel since it makes communication more difficult.
exactly the argument rests on we do not know this because of the spatial temporal sense that they pose to determine that arriving Shakuras and visiting Korhal is viable does not exist equally, we only know that the artifact is an object that can be stolen, as spectators we have seen it get lost 2 times so having it at this time in the hands of an ally when its recovery does not represent a waste of resources and time is the ideal moment since it is for a few hours apart could mean permanent loss
Again, taking a risk on what-ifs and making a decision on data we don’t know is too risky for me if I was Artanis.
The question is with this idea of a plan for a special mission is that it contradicts the game, since in no option Artanis chooses to relegate the work of collecting the artifact, which is not a delayed wrong decision but addresses the possibility that the things is complicated by a conflict such as Moebius’s assault or Dominio’s refusal to hand over the artifact
Why wouldn’t the Dominion hand over the Keystone? Raynor is a good friend to Artanis and both have had a strong history together. Terran knowledge is so infantile that they barely knew what to do with it in their possession. Even if the Daelaam were gathering knowledge on the Keystone, they only know it was useful for stopping Kerrigan. They know Kerrigan is deinfested now and is actively hunting down hybrid labs and haven’t bothered either the Dominion and the Daelaam since the end of HOTS, which is why they planned the opportune reclamation of Aiur.
In a battle equalizing Terran and Protoss forces will always carry this logic that one Protoss soldier equals tens of humans.So the numerical difference does not play against Shakuras in comparison to the terran capital,
I don’t know the K:D ratio of Protoss to Terran, so I can’t really say. And even in this case, since we know the bulk of Amon’s forces are Zerg, we should be comparing K:D ratio of Terrans to Zerg.
and also forget that Kerrigan was in charge of disabling the planetary defenses, and reduced the military forces of the planet, so we speak of a proportion of civilians, if anti-orbital systems or other defensive structures
Eight months of war-free rebuilding takes care of this. They didn’t lose the blueprints, the engineers, modular industrial plants, SCVs, etc. - they just have to focus on harvesting raw resources, manufacturing, and reconstruction.
The argument for Shakuras is based on what Artanis knows at the time. This is the fallacy you and Spirit are arguing against, which is incredibly difficult. Your arguments are regarding info that Artanis knows that we don’t have access to. This makes it difficult for us to see eye-to-eye because there’s a lot of conjecture we have to accept for him to choose Korhal over Shakuras.
I have yet to finish catching on this thread, but I want to point out something.
The Field Guide contains information about the Arkship. So unless the Terran has some uncanny intelligent unit. The manual is printed sometime after the decision is made.
They do have an uncanny intelligence unit. Nothing in the description says the SOA was reactivated; they studied it when it was underground in Aiur.
If you want an age of the field manual, go to the Koprulu Sector Timeline in Appendix A on pg134. The last recorded event in 2505 is Valerian becoming the new Dominion emperor.
Oh, come on! That’s most blatant of all the Blatant Speculation! Even the Protoss have trouble getting information on the surface of Aiur. As we both know, there is a survivor there. If the Protoss can’t study it, then there is no way the Terran can resuce them. I don’t want to make ad hominem argument, but this is your biggest problem.
I know about that timeline. It just means that the book was printed after 2505.
I mean we both know why this manual was written and how it’s 100% factually correct from a Dominion perspective - with bits of propaganda here and there. The question is how Blizzard explains the lore of how the Dominion got a hold of the data.
I don’t make the rules, lore, or source material. I just quote it. Maybe we can request Leviathan for their thoughts?
Levi is not a Blizz employee.
Subsourian though might not be one either, but he’s a big name at the SC wiki.
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He at least sources his stuff, so it’s definitely better than yours. You are pulling lot of stuff out of… nowhere.
Frick. Frick. Seven Scourges on your buttocks modmins.
Sometime, you’re pretty confusing. I’m not going to deny that he/she source his stuff in a clearer manner, but that doesn’t mean I don’t any. Yes, some is my personal analysis, but those I either give a reason to or base on well known information.
Anyway, would you mind telling me which of my idea is baseless? I’ll try and provide a better source.
Yes, I’m glad you bring this up. The manual is based a lot on propaganda. The owner’s comment should also be taken into consideration. It gives a much needed context to the information.
Here is a thing. You need to understand that while this quote and material is, indeed, lore and canon. Your interpretation of it, however, is not. I do admit that some of your interpretation is good and interesting. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s your understanding and fallible.
You can. I don’t care about his/her thought, though. If Leviathan decided to join, I’ll give his/her thought the same weight that I give you (which is the same amount I gave to almost everyone). Now, Subsourian, on the other hand, I’ll listen to (he carries quite a weight around here).
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If we define baseless as having no backing of data but by citing past events and interpreting them to be more severe than in actuality:
- Korhal is not in a proper military shape to defend the Keystone in those 8 months
- The SOA has a huge enough army to complete military tasks (without citing an actual # or estimate)
- The Nerazim are all willing to sit around and become slaughter for the zerg without accomplishing anything for the collective (more towards derceinlycan)
- ETA estimates of warp space FTL travel, approximate locations of Aiur / Korhal / Shakuras to each other
- Quoting how protoss take “hundreds of years” to mature despite a 268 year old protoss leading the Daelaam at the start of LOTV
- Rejecting why DTs don’t become stalkers on “lack of info” despite some clues that hint it
- Rejecting Dominion < UED < Daelaam < SOA FTL travel on “lack of info” despite some clues that hint it
- Saying my estimates are incorrect despite not citing a # in our arguments
We need to consider each page on a case-by-case basis then because the presented info is a mix of both propaganda and facts. With respect to the times I reference it, the owner of the manual doesn’t point out any contradictions from the facts I cite.
If there was one, the owner would make a message about it (e.g., “RIP” comment on General Warfield’s quote about the zerg on pg49). I don’t recall seeing any other parts of the manual that suggests this manual came out during LOTV or before the epilogue. And if the info wasn’t found on Aiur underground, why would the info of how it was obtained be redacted? At no point during LOTV do we see the Dominion gathering intel on the SOA while it’s active. You’d think if it was written after LOTV began that there’d be an excerpt about the Daelaam’s failed reclamation of Aiur because it’s a key event in the “Koprulu Sector Timeline”. And lastly, remember that the passage cites “many lives were lost”. How would Raynor be able to explain himself to Artanis, an allied partner, about the many terran lives that were lost trying to steal protoss secrets? My logic to arrive at this conclusion is based on simple deduction - nothing more.
This is especially important for specifically:
- The Dominion military is at its strongest ever deployed after HOTS
- The ceasefire with the Daelaam after HOTS
- The Daelaam values each and every single protoss life
- Stalkers taking direct inspiration from Aiur dragoons and immortals
- Timeline history
The validity of these objective facts helps us understand whether going to Shakuras is tactfully better than going to Korhal if we disregard Artanis’s behaviour, which is subjective. You can argue about Artanis’s upbringing, character development, and inner struggles all you want, but I believe the truth lies in analyzing hard facts because he’s leading an army during war.
Yeah, you’re right about this - I am fallible and when I know that I am, I’ll admit it. Nowhere did I say that what I was saying is canon, but I would argue that my analyses are better because there’s more cited data that backs it my interpretation. If there are any giant leaps of faith in my assumptions, please let me know so I can better my arguments and/or improve my understanding of the game.
I understand why you and derceinlycan are focused mostly on theoreticals because the protoss can see and understand the synchronicity of events. If you give more credibility to this fact, then not only would you two be right, but arguing about any protoss lore is moot because we humans are unable to rationalize the decisions of a fictional alien being with senses that we don’t fully understand that were written by a team of human beings who gave themselves enough writing ambiguity to create lore debates.
Wonder if I can get his/her attention on here. Their inputs would certainly be helpful for providing insights / resolving this debate.
I got poked:
So I’ll preface this with the biggest part: unlike a lot of the timeline orders, there isn’t much in the way of canon to back up what order is the LotV one. WoL has Kyla Velassi, HotS has Shadow Wars and the zerg breeds showing up on Zerus (albeit both contradicting one another), there isn’t much solid aside from the general “I feel the characters would act this way” and the knowledge they have at the time.
Now, PERSONALLY (and I stress this is not canon), I think Shakuras is first based off the knowledge Artanis has. The Keystone is the key to salvation, but as far as he knows it’s “safe” on Korhal, he has no knowledge of Moebius Corps’s existance or their attack. Meanwhile, it makes sense to run back to Shakuras to rally the last of the Daelaam in a crisis situation to then get ready to grab the Keystone, it can be approached from the angle of “it’s the most obvious place to get reinforcements when he’s woefully undermanned” or “he feels like Amon’s going to shift his focus to his people’s old capital to mess up his race, so he should swing by and pick them up.” But you can make arguments for Korhal too, which depends on how much you personally think Artanis thinks the Keystone is under threat. When it comes to motivations and tactical decisions, there’s too much wiggle room to really go past a general “I think x,” especially when the game validates both paths of Artanis, and no outside source has yet to give any weight to the order as of yet.
As for the Spear being propaganda, the manual takes place prior to LotV, either 2505 or very early 2506. The only sticking point being the disruptor article, but that tiptoes around mentioning Purifiers (aside from high level AI), but everything else acts as if the End War had not started yet, Khalai all still have the nerve cords and all mentions of the Khala imply it’s fine. But keep in mind the terrans going to Aiur happens a good bit, Alpha Squadron went to Aiur in Enslavers 1, and in the Dark Templar Saga we see that the criminals of Dead Man’s Port were able to take sammuro fruit from Aiur and sell them on the black market for a massive profit given the dangers of getting them. This shows that terrans at the time of Aiur’s zerg occupation COULD make trips to Aiur, but that it was rare due to how high the risk was.
As for the Dominion’s team getting the info, occam’s razor applies: the Dominion’s information on the loadout and capabilities of the Spear were accurate (though it has the artistic error of showing the Solar Forge making a stalker before those schematics were loaded up; what I assume is an out-of-universe artistic mistake to mirror the in-game scene that shows the Solar Forge, or an in-universe a Dominion embellishment of the forge), while the other ones show a variety of different protoss that mirror the campaign characters but none are actually like them. Judging from this, and the book taking place before its activation, it seems more likely a Dominion team was sent to Khor-shakal to study the gigantic 74km ship partially jutting from the ground, got some scans of it, but then started getting devoured by nearby zerg and had to leave. That’s how I interpreted it anyway, especially since the Spear itself isn’t exactly hidden given both the art and way it’s laid out in the mission “Spear of Adun.” It’s never outright said, and the redactions were certainly meant to leave it to the imagination, but the fact is they did get the data somehow.
Let me know if there are other questions, there’s a bit of back and forth here so I don’t know what specifically needs clarification. I’m also someone who certainly doesn’t have the answers on everything (especially since some of these aren’t outright stated) but I can help levelset what I know.
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Picking Korhal is like picking Glacius. Yeah the artifact can help you win the war, but so can secret weaponry.
Thanks for this.
Here is a thing. I don’t need you to work your butt off citing your source. Take our latest discussion for example. I just told you that there are survivor left on Aiur. We acknowledge that fact and move on. I hate redundancy. I don’t click on any of your link because I don’t need them. You can simply told me that Shakuras is in a striking distance from Aiur and that’s enough for me. If I don’t get it, I’ll ask for more information or source. Otherwise, you’re wasting your energy on irrelevant.
And because I don’t need that, I kind of assume that nobody else needs it, too. Hence, low citation and all. I expect you to know about it. Unless, I asked otherwise. Even then, I expect you to know what we’re talking about simply with a little direction.
This is not about seniority; I respect you to know everything. If I’m starting to give so many citation and source the way that you do, I’m actually doing it snobishly and consider you an idiot the whole time. This is who I am. I won’t change it.
Think of it this way. In the event of Original and Brood War. The Terran was getting kicked around real good, but not to wipe them out. UED did not want to destroy infrastructure of (to them) their colony. Protoss wasn’t interested in that. Kerrigan wants Mengsk to rebuild.
And that still take the Terran about four years to rebuild.
However, during WoL. Most of the fringe world was attacked and ravaged in order to find the Artifact (or something; I’m entirely sure what she was doing invading everybody like that). It wasn’t like she actively trying or anything, but still. A lot of media shows failing systems all over. Mengsk consolidates his force and pretty much abandon them. Raynor also helps with this greatly.
Admittedly, this is quite nuance. On one hand the fringe world is defendless and abandoned. On the other hand, this makes them highly motivates about rebuild and working with the new regime backed by Raynor. Still it should take them awhile to rebuild.
And then there were HotS. Unlike every other previous incident. She surgically take out all military infrastructure. This is the biggest blow ever done on the Dominion. This is the first time Zerg attack them with express purpose on wiping them out. Even in Brood War, they were kind of an after thought. Kerrigan was calculated and didn’t care about revenge. If previous event is like having your army wiped and lose a couple expo, then this is like losing all your probe and expo. Lost many key structures and manufactures.
And then you got just eight month or two third of a year to come back from both WoL and HotS.
Ever heard the concept of knowing enough? I don’t know how many military force is onboard. No meaningful estimation can be given. The Short story does say hundreds of thousand, but this is told from Protoss perspective. They’re weird. There won’t be an estimation because it’s not important; what important is why the Protoss build it. The whole purpose of the Arkship is to single handedly take care of the biggest crisis inconceivable. It was outfit with everything neccessary. The idea is that even if you lost all the fleet in the Empire and have nothing more than a handful of refugee (I’m exaggerating, but not by much), once you activate the Arkship, it’s all fine. The Arkship will taking care of everything. That’s what I understand from reading the short story.
That’s why I claim SoA can complete military tasks. It’s what it’s build for, so it should be able to do that.
Is this relevant to me?
So in the Niadra mission, we know that the Protoss warp away from Kaldir. That’s why there is a need to destroy the Warp Drive and drop out of warpping. Now, the time that they take in Warpping in ambigous. We know that the Warping happens sometime between when we talked to Izsha and when we click on the mission button and stop once the Warp Drive is destroyed. I wager that’s about 10 minutes or so. It might not accurate, but it’s precise enough. We know for certain that it’s not an hour.
We know that technically speaking Kerrigan can Warp on a small shuttle. Canonically, she choses to go to Char, but that doesn’t matter; what matters is that the choice is there. This means that Kaldir is not far from Terran territory. A small shuttle can take you there. You don’t even need a Capital ship for the trip.
Next time, we saw Niadra, she is somewhere at the edge of Terran and Protoss territory. We all knows how slow Protoss’ vessle is out of warp. So even if she travel in it for years, I believe those distance can be discarded.
This means that from one end to the other in about an hour. The example might not be opposite end, but this gives us a sense of distance.
From that point, I extrapolate and speculate that it should only take about a day or so to get from Aiur to Korhal. This is from the history between Protoss and Terran. Also, about how they interact. I know this is kind of strechy so let me know if you want me to go in further detail. Or this is enough for you. Mostly, I speculate by using real world sample. You can’t have a full surveillance on a territory that take you longer than days to travel. For a civilization with faster transportation, the monitor area is also bigger. However, there are some correlation between the two. Since, the Protoss knows about the Terran and learn about the Zerg as they enter the Territory, this gives a reasonable estimation.
As for the Shakuras, let us get one thing out. A stirking distance probably means that you can ride a carrier, warp there, destroy it and back. So a protoss capital ship is capable of making a roundtrip. That could means many thing. We might even be able to say that Aiur is in a Striking Distance from Korhal (for Terran). The time it takes can be months. Especially since this is Protoss vessel. We know that their ship is capable of operating autonomously for a long while without any support from the Empire.
Now, according to the lore. The Nerazim was banished and travel for an unspecific amount of time before they find the Planet. Seeing as this is their new Homeworld and the fact that if found, they’re dead. It needs to be very far from Aiur. And also, the fact that a vagabound won’t just stop and pick a new habitant just a few days after being exiled. I used to think that for a long living creature like Protoss it should be a few year before they settle. It’s physiological, if you live for a decade, a week seems long and year might as well be next life. The longer you live the shorter week becomes. And so for the Protoss, it should be decade before they think it’s far enough. However, the Protoss sense of time is ridiculous… So I don’t know, maybe only a couple of months? Regardless, the advance Warp Drive should be faster, but not by much. The Nerazim was warpping away using Xel’naga ship. I feel justify to estimate that the SoA will take weeks to cover a distance once take a couple of month by Xel’naga ship.
This is probably samantic. ‘Hundreds of years’ can be 268 years. Anyway, Artanis is known to be very young. Like fresh out of University young. Zeratul feel like an old man. Tassadar is like a man in his 30s. Rashgal is very old. Using all this as a point of reference, I feel confident to say that the Protoss consider somewhere between 250 and 300 years old to be mature. Hence ‘hundreads of years’ to maturity.
Because after the fall of Aiur, no new Dragoon is made. I can’t remember the source, but it’s well known fact that the technology is lost with Aiur. That’s why there is no Dragoon until they got SoA. They can’t put gravely injuried protoss into an exoskeleton. The Stalker was made from low level Nerazim who want to help with the War effort; not perfectly healthy Dark Templar (Actually, we can try and ask Subsourian for this one. I can’t remember the exact detail).
To be clear, I don’t reject Protoss>UED part. Anyway, I read your reply and it seems you already agree that even if SoA is faster, it’s not by much. This is exactly my point. Daelaam~SoA. I don’t know which is faster, but the different is minor. Seeing as you already agree, I won’t elaborate.
I’m confused here. For one thing, I said it’s inaccurate, not incorrect. The sample kind of skewed. Big different. I’m not going to cite any number because there is not suffice information. Anyway, I’ll explain myself a bit more. Hope this helps.
First thing first, the composition of army matters a lot. As a bad example (as you point out), one Void Ray can have infinite kill ratio to an army of Zergling and Beneling. Or anyother example, I’m sure you can make. Do we know how much is made up on each side? I have no idea what the answer is.
The Zerg are Feral. We have no idea how incompetent Amon is (at the moment) so let us assume that he is good at micro. Feral Zerg is just A-Click army. While the Protoss clearly know how to micro. Case in point, it takes three Benelings to kill a single Zealot. Is this kill ratio of 3:1 seems right to you? Also, the Hydralisk just appear there? Next to Zealot instead of furthur away?
Some ability is just ‘WOW’. By that I mean the Archon. Yes, it’s just one instant, but given the small size of your sample, this matter a lot. If it’s just one Archon in an army of otherwise normal Archon, then sure discard it away. But you have this one Archon and only one Archon. Also, the High Templar; they can one shot Zergling and the Psi-Storm is now instant kill. I’m incline to believe that they’re elite fighter, but alas, they’re not (?)
The sample situation is bad. What about base defend? (Yeah, i know it’s a minor point)
I have no more time for other point. So later.
Also, remember that this is not to prove that I’m right. I’m just giving you the idea behind my statement. Do you still think they’re baseless?
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Yeah, when exaclt do the Protoss cease fire with the Dominion. I was let to believe that Artanis never contact the Terran after between the end of HotS and the reclaimation.
The Field Manual states clearly that the cease fire is official between Valerian and Artanis.
@Eric
Just check the Field Manual. It states that Stalker does not house an injured Protoss.