auto injects are a terribly bad idea, youll have queens over injecting hatch’s with no energy for transfuse or creep tumor spread. Just plain bad idea.
… So you want to make Protoss harder to play and reward that by buffing Storm. That makes sense, honestly speaking.
The problem is that the reason why High Templars were given an auto attack is specifically because low level players couldn’t adequately micro manage the High Templar, and therefore would never build them, and then get absolutely rolled because Psionic Storm is actually pretty good as a button.
I’m happy to agree that buffing skilled HT use would be welcome but I don’t think this is the right approach because generically speaking a huge hurdle for players trying to get better is becoming able to use spellcasters, and the auto attack method assists hugely in allowing players to actually feel good about having the most important units in their army, because they don’t walk forward and die.
The Ghost has a good basic attack.
The Sentry has a sometimes-okay attack, the High Templar has the worst attack in the game.
The Infestor can be permanently burrowed, requiring detection to hit.
In my opinion, this doesn’t go far enough, and the Raven, Oracle, Infestor, and Viper should have an actual attack on them. I have met dozens of players who are extremely recalcitrant to use these units - despite knowing that they’re extremely powerful - because they struggle to not just send them to their death. Instead of subjecting themselves to this, they just … don’t build the unit, and know they only have the brain space to use one spellcaster in their army compositions.
Basically, if the High Templar didn’t have an attack, the players I am talking about would never use it. However, the High Templar does not actually go to an optimal position with its attack - it’s too short-ranged considering the range on their spells - so it’s still better for the player to not let the HT be in that range anyway, at which point the attack is of no influence.
While I agree that Liberators are good units, they’re not particularly overwhelming as they are except in an edge case against Stalkers - Namely, +2 Libs two-shot them and can be pulled out decently quickly, a Liberator or two easily just kills Stalkers sent at it which is kind of a problem with certain maps’ dead spaces and how using Cannons to counter Liberators doesn’t really work.
Lowering their damage from 75 to 71 covers that; but it hurts their Roach match significantly (148 → 140, no longer 2-shotting without an attack upgrade).
Yes and yes.
Properly splitting units allows you to defend them better. This is maximally important for the Ghost, which generates huge value over time because that’s how casters work.
That said, yes, splitting Ghosts in particular is a bit awkward for a dozen other reasons, but it still does get done when there’s enough Ghosts built.
This is incorrect. Players have built themselves around making each and every inject happen.
They also do miss injects, like, not infrequently, as the game’s multitasking and splitting keeps going. This is the same reason that the Creep Tumor nerf was so significant despite looking pretty negligible at a glance.
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I don’t think that is a real problem.
There are a lot of units that should be pre-split before fighting, when/if the player is capable of it. Ghosts are just one such unit.
Storm already deals significant damage, considering how compact and squishy many units happen to be. I don’t think there is much room to buff its overall damage or its DPS without causing problems somewhere.
Making Disruptors less all-or-nothing might be a good change though.
The only place where Mines really need a nerf is in worker harassment, and that can easily be fixed by changing the Mine’s splash damage against workers to 35, and leaving it the same against everything else. Maybe you could throw Oberservers into that list as well, because they are the only detector that can get one-shot by the Widow Mine’s splash damage if they just happen to be close to another unit.
Assuming the goal is to prevent Liberators from 2-shotting Stalkers, the better solution would be to nerf their upgrade bonus. I don’t know if Liberators need their “full” damage against other targets though.
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Their main use these days tends to be A) Harassment (reduce ranged lib upgrade to make it easier to deal with with ground units?), B) Ultras and against protoss in general, but particularly when colossus come out at that +2 upgrade currently. Having the +2 upgrade do less will absolutely make ultras tankier since they survive with more HP for bio units to kill, but it won’t make them take any less shots than libs already need to kill ultras at +2 or +3 - that of course depends on how much you reduce the upgrade benefit for libs though.
Going from +5 per upgrade to +4 is negligible, and won’t change how many shots it takes to kill stalkers either (+5 - 75, 80, 85, 90 - +4 75, 79, 83, 87 - +3 75, 78, 81, 84). +3 will change the amount of shots needed to kill stalkers at +2 weapons.
I believe the math is the same for ultralisks - 500/((75+u)-a) - assuming that ultras have max upgrades and chitinous plating, ultras take marginally less damage but shouldn’t require any extra shots from +1 onwards for libs - roughly 7 shots.
Edit: Realised my math was wrong on my previous post so fixed that now.
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My thought was the bonus would have to drop to +2 per upgrade, assuming we removed the ability to two-shot fully-upgraded Stalkers altogether. That is 7 hits on Ultralisks at +3 compared to the current 6 though, unless an anti-massive bonus was added to compensate.
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I dunno how feasible that is though considering that would also effect Colossus and thors, both of which it already does well against.
Also see the updated math; I realised it was somewhat wrong since I wasn’t taking into account ultra armour.
Notably, +3 instead of +2 changes the 2 shotting of stalkers to +3 ship weapons, which I would think would be acceptable since you’re almost always going to have stargate units out by then.
Currently you don’t generally want liberators until +2 as it is because of the constant need to siege and resiege; you’re generally better off with vikings vs Colossus until you get that +2 ship weapons. Changing that to need +3 drastically increases the time stalkers are effective, and also increases the length of time that Protoss players have to get out a proper counter to them in Tempests/Carriers since you’re going to have a lot less than you would by starting lib production at +2 - it’s a difference of almost a full two and a half minutes (157 seconds).
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I am not suggesting a buff to the Liberator’s total damage against any unit. More like the upgrade changes from a flat +5 per level to +2 & +3 v. massive per level. This is again assuming that the Liberator’s ability to two-shot Stalkers at some point is overkill.
That is also decent if you think of this as a timing issue, rather than an outright problem.
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That is my opinion
making HTs used in high level more often
I think in low level protoss players are just fine without storm
they can just 4 gate blink all in or stargate in to collosus
I thought people tend to whine balance problems just looking at the esports scene
Not playing for themselves
So i buffed storm and not let low level players abuse it
That’s great idea for inject
I am not saying that’s problem
I am saying not letting HT auto attack will help balancing out storm buff
You turn it on only for 3 of your queens. The others you put onto hotkeys and use for creep spread and defense. This eliminates two failure conditions for zerg. One is pulling the queens to defend and missing injects, either because the queens are distracted or because they die. The other is falling behind in creep spread because your queens are busy chasing around drops or oracles, and then having a push arrive practically on top of your third or fourth.
Zerg is the only race in the game with a third resource. The larvae is a resource that is produced at a constant rate from hatcheries and, unlike other resources, there are a variety of ways to kill it or interrupt it. Liberators for example one shot larva. Each shot is can be equivalent to a dead ultralisk, which means 1 liberator can cause cataclysmic damage to a zerg’s army. The same is true for a queen that is distracted and misses an inject. That can be equivalent to 4 dead ultras.
An equivalent scenario would be if a zerg could hit a stargate with a single ling and the stargate warp-in process resets.
yeah but how many low level - medium level players do you think will actually remember they have it on or will hotkey others
It changes the default outcome. You bank energy for transfuse vs you bank larvae. I think low level zergs will benefit a lot more from banked larva than banked transfuse. As a P/T you can queue multiple units up into a barracks or stargate, so the probability you miss a production cycle is pretty low. It’s hard to force an interrupt because you’d have to kill a stargate and those are well protected. Zerg’s larvae are all over the map, liberators can easily kill them, void rays, oracles, etc. It’s easy to miss an inject because you’re distracted, which is a commonality with P/T production, except that queens are required for defense so it’s possible for the opponent to force you into missed injects. That doesn’t happen with t/p because the only way the production is interrupted is if they forget to make a unit. Another asymmetry is that zerg has to remember to make units twice, aka once to inject and once to turn the larva into a unit, while T/P only have to remember once.
I actually like inject a lot because it’s a lot like stim. It’s a powerful ability but it comes with trade offs. Stim is a powerful ability that can either deal 1,000 hp damage to your army or it can make your units shoot & move faster at a critical moment when they need to shoot & move faster. Those abilities have trade offs, which is great. Inject can make 10 ultras or 20 mutas and whether that’s a good call or a bad call depends on how you use it.
The problem is that the mechanical complexity is needlessly high. There are a bunch of extra steps just for the sake of having extra steps. Really the way it should work is that if a queen is within 1 range of a hatchery she will auto-inject it if it needs one. Then zergs only have to remember to make units 1 time, rather than twice. The problem is that this would definitely upset balance because forcing missed injects is part of how high level T/P garner their wins, and they would definitely lose more games. It would be a good QOL feature for Masters and lower, but GM+ it would be busted.
No it wouldn’t. The purpose of the High Templar’s attack is to prevent it from walking straight into the enemy army. It is not actually powerful enough to limit the strength of Storm. That particular detail is mostly restricted by Storm’s effects against Bio, Hydralisks, Zerglings, Banelings, workers, and a number of other particularly squishy units.
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With all due respect to you as a fellow terran player but that was the most ridiculous response and in that regard you have no idea what you’re talking about. He is right. Infestor should not be allowed to cast fungal while burrowed. One fungal (ONE !) wins zerg the game. And you cannot “spread your units out and keep detection”. This is only viable when you’re actually expecting zerg to have infestors. If you are completely unprepared then one spell can literally drastically alter the fight - like you have 50 supply of bio and you want to trade efficiently vs ling-bane - then all of a sudden infestors shows up and your entire bio army is dead. Zerg can have multiple infestors coming at you from various angles. Not even Maru and Clem could stop it. Just because you don’t see it in your league ( be glad you don’t ! ) doesn’t mean it’s balanced. Frankly when i saw Serral doing it i realized how broken it is in his hands.
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Infestors can’t cast fungal while burrowed. You have to unburrow them first before you can cast them. They tried it for a patch ages back and then everyone realised how broken it was and it was patched out.
Patch 4.0 made undetected burrowed infestors more visible on low graphics quality settings. Fungal Growth now slows the target’s movement speed by 75% instead of immobilizing, and its radius is increased from 2.0 to 2.5. The patch 4.0.2 Balance Update removed the ability to cast Fungal Growth while burrowed, and its radius was reduced from 2.5 to 2.25.
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Patch_4.0.0
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Patch_4.0.2
What I will say though is that burrow move infestors do need to be more visible, much the same way that ghosts and observers are (and should be visible!) while moving since you can see the blur of movement on screen.
Burrow move Roaches had a patch a while back that made them more visible, and apparently that applied to Infestors as well, but where burrow move Roaches became a lot more visible, it doesn’t seem to be as much with burrow move Infestors.
Roach Undetected burrow move visual effects are now more visible. Infestor Undetected burrow move visual effects are now more visible
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Patch_3.14.0
It’s just silly to make Infestors require energy stay underground the same way literally every other zerg unit in the game does, and it’s equally silly to require them to use energy to move the same way roaches do.
If it’s so problematic (it’s not, given that literally only the best of the best can do it) that players can’t deal with it, then you could always make burrow move an upgrade for infestors as well, or have a separate burrow move upgrade for infestors on the infestation pit.
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Can ultra, Zergling, hydra, lurker move while burrow? I am saying we should make infestor do the same
I have no idea what you are talking about
I am telling you that we ‘buff’ storm and take away the chance that storm getting abused by low level players
Then learn to read. It is not my fault that you cannot follow a conversation.
Like I previously stated, the limiting factor on Storm’s damage is its effectiveness against squishy units, such as Bio, Hydralisks, Zerglings, Banelings, workers, etc. Removing the High Templar’s auto-attack does not give you any leeway to buff Storm.
When did i say limiting storm
buffing storm is not same with limiting storm
That why i said i don’t understand what u r saying
personal attacking is not the response you need to make
it is you that misread my post and acting dumb