A last Fenix update?

Co-op Missions Discussion
21

Seems like you’re not getting the point to me here.

Nobody’s doubting your own experience with Fenix. That’s still just your experience. So which particular mutator did you have trouble with? And which mutation did you have issue using Fenix? You mentioned here…

|Blasting Off Again|Void Launch|Going Nuclear|Lava Burst|
|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|
|Enter the Nexus|Cradle of Death|Blizzard|Heroes from the Storm|
|Death is Fleeting|Dead of Night|Just Die!|Void Reanimators|
|Mass Manufacturing|Part & Parcel|Propagators|Void Rifts|
|Fire in the Hole|Miner Evacuation|Boom Bots|Missile Command|

That’s a list of the last few weekly mutations. The only Void Rift that appears is on P&P, there’s absolutely no reason for any adequate Fenix player to not be able to deal with it.

If you’re referring to even farther back, “Multitasking Trainer” - Malwarfare: Microtransaction + Void Rift. Again, not an issue that prevented Fenix from doing it.

This is what I keep trying to tell you. I agree, if a commander literally has 0 tool to deal with a mutation, then either that commander needs a look or the mutator. That simply isn’t the case here at all. Lest we forget, your OP is talking about your P2 and working with a teammate. So in these circumstances, I find it hard to believe, nay impossibly to believe that you can’t deal with these mutators (with an ally). And as such, your choice is to turn to question if Fenix needs…

Fenix is amongst one of the most versatile commanders in all of coop. You main Fenix, so presumably he must be fun for you. So the real question versatility in mutations, which he isn’t lacking.

As an addon, thinking back, I can hardly remember a single mutation or topic even that someone even mentioned “Fenix can’t do x mutation”. There will always be variance in difficulty, but that’s not because Fenix lacked any tools, just that mutator interactions were harder for some than others.

  • I also looked up Commander of the Week. While it isn’t an exact metric, but Fenix appears all of 1 time out of all the mutations CtG ever listed.
  • I think that alone shows exactly why perhaps you feel Fenix doesn’t outshine any mutations, and at the same time why he is a very versatile commander.

I think the two and two goes hand in hand.

22

Mutations depend on the type of mutators, so it’s hard to say what kind of updates he needs.

P2 makes some of his heroes super overpowered but his army suffers. P3 is kind of redundant being focused on heroes again. My hopes were to change P3 to focus on his army rather than his heroes again, but that won’t happen.

Fenix CO is well designed. It has it all, good offense and good defense, but doesn’t excel in anything. He doesn’t need any special macro or micro like some other COs, he is easy to play. I don’t think he needs any changes or tweets to his P0. His P0 is very well rounded and good for many mutators.

23

Yes it was “Multitasking Trainer”, outside of the first rifts I quickly felt powerless against the following ones. So my question still stands is there a smart way to deal with them? I don’t say it was unwinnable with the right partner. So if there is not we are just arguing about design and personal preferences, because I’m not saying it was not winnable with the right partner.

24

Well Fenix is just good at everything without exceling at anything, hence there is almost always a commander that outperforms him any mutation.

25

Abathur often refered like the most versatile commander for mutations, so there is room for improvement for many commanders

26

If you look at Abathur in a design sense though, he has very distinct advantages and weaknesses. They just happen to align well for many but not all mutators, and speed running.

A well played Abathur can snowball into an easy win, a poorly played Abathur can get to the point where there’s little chance of a win.

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27

The difference between Abathur (and Dehaka) and Fenix is the snowballing factor. The snowballing on the former is that is dependant on aggresive playstyle, is not economic-based (biomass/essence), while Fenix needs to have his economy going and macro up and while it’s not particularly slow, he is somewhat slow against very early aggresion.

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28

So here’s some information regarding Void Rifts from https://starcraft2coop.com/resources/mutators#row_voidrifts

Before 8:00, the Void Rifts will only spawn between 30 and 80 range away from the players’ starting location. After that, they can spawn anywhere on the map. There are also other limitations as to where they will spawn:

  • They cannon spawn within 10 range of a resource patch.
  • They cannot spawn within 20 range of another Void Rift.
  • There can only be a maximum of 3 enemy units within 10 range of the intended Void Rift Spawn point.

The Void Rift spawn timings and number of rifts are shown below:

Mission Time Number Spawned
2:20 2
3:50 2
5:20 2
6:50 2
8:20 4

At this point, 4 Void Rifts will spawn every 1:30.

There are no distinctive “smarter” strategy to beat Void Rifts (unless you have a P3 Karax ally). The “smart way” of approaching all things is to push aggressively. With P2 Fenix, this is extremely possible, as Kaldalis alone can clear the entirety of Terminal 1 & 2 long before Aurana moves to Terminal 2. Given this period, Void Rifts do not spawn so far away that you can’t reach, you can choose to do 1 of 2 things:

  1. Kill them as they spawn (recommended). I would find it hard to believe that you cannot do this, especially with a partner. To say the least, your partner can defend Terminal 1 while Kaldalis go to town on these.
  2. Defend them as they come (poor-man’s strategy). This is really only needed when you can clearly see your ally is a completely inexperienced player who can barely handle Malwarfare’s timing on Brutal (but here you are stuck with him on a Brutation).

Between these 2 main strategies, you should have no issue at all. If you’re finding it tough, then perhaps it is a build order issue. Max out those shells to gain your TDW bonus on Kaldalis (that’s only 6 shells or so). And remember, that’s just Kaldalis, one of 6 Champions you can use. Hotkey him on a separate team if he’s your Void Rift killer. Place another to defend Aurana, use another to clear the map, use Fenix suits to clear the map, etc. Really, a ton of options… versatility.

If you found you lacked resources, make sure not to move your F2 (if this is an issue) but then again that’s literally what the mutator punishes. P2 Fenix is quite A-move capable (with champion(s)) in this case, which is actually a plus.

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29

You can do a decent amount early with just Fenix and 2 champions.

I feel like that what sometimes hinders my early aggression play with Fenix is the macro multitasking because he is actually very strong earlier game . With standard Fenix the best build tends to be 6 champion + maybe a spare or two for each unit type + conservators / observers + filling out your army based on enemy comp (mass adepts usually works when in doubt) . Each champion as there own research, own data web, and then you have unit upgrades.

Cheaper units and operational efficiency allows fast macro / tech. But with that comes increased multi-tasking with macro and balancing that with early game micro. Once you got 2 saturated bases, like 6 gates, 2 robos, 2 stargates, 6 champion research, data web abilities researched, unit abilities researched, then Fenix becomes a breeze.

Not complaining I love the commander. But it’s just a fair reality of the commander that he has not harder but busier macro.

It’s not like Artanis where I’m like okay I’m going Dragoons, dragoon / Robo, zealot archon, tempest etc . Managing multiple tech paths, multiple unit upgrades, makes for a busier macro.

30

OP, I’m thinking it’s not versatility you’re looking for, rather I believe it’s that you are looking for a definitive strength to use with him. Something to lean on to bust through issue areas with him.

Imo, this is the area where Fenix suffers the most, generally speaking. Fenix’s greatest strength is being able to do a little of pretty much anything, but at the cost of a lack of an area he excels at.

Have you tried using his P2? It gives him that strength at the cost of his flexibility.

31

I don’t do mutations but interestingly been looking at my SC2 overlays after each game for my brutal games. Fenix P2 seems to be my best performing Fenix prestige in terms of kill counts (I tend to have higher APM too).

32

Thanks for the detailed information. I think I was doing fine for the first 8 minutes, sometimes handling most of the rifts by myself

33

No worries, it sounds like you probably had a bad partner.

You do have to rely on ally to be able to handle some of it, especially during 3rd terminal. Otherwise, pushing base and void rift killing becomes a bit hectic.

34

After experimenting on malwarfare with void rifts on maguro maps and playing both Fenix and Karax, my problem was actually defense, putting towers everywhere to clear the rifts and the flow of units was enough. Leaving far away rifts alive was actually not the problem