You’re literally never going to be salvaging sensor towers anyway though, outside of extremely niche situations (basically, you’re out of money altogether), so that’s basically irrelevant. It’s arguably going to be more to cover the same area since you need to make more, so the cost decrease slightly evens that out somewhat.
Blue-flame does upgrade hellbats. But the benefit hellbats and helions get are two different things. The buff to blue-flame specifically effects helions, while the hellbat blue-flame upgrade remains unchanged.
It’s a reasonable take, I think; though I personally disagree. I’d be happy for it to not benefit from neosteel plating though (or partially effect it by only having the increased SCV load capacity), and have only the base building armour be there.
They’re very strong, true, but they also cost a lot more than shield batteries. Not to mention, battery overcharge and PFs almost always operate at very different times in the game (plus also require 2 upgrades to reach max strength). By the time PF is generally used, you’re looking at a 4th base minimum, while shield batteries are relevant from the start of the game up to 3rds generally, and really only used vs harassment after that (if it’s used at all). It’s kinda like comparing apples and oranges. Both are good, but it’s hard to compare them when they’re two completely different things.
I don’t think I ever see TA built for archons in PvT; that seems like such a waste to not use storm when it’s so good.
I think the attack prio is still a little buggy? Not sure.
Just watched a PvP between Heaven and a 4.7k Protoss in the live game. Heaven saw a nexus expand and responded with a proxy robo. The opponent had 5 shield batteries by the time he pushed and a few seconds later matched the immortal count. PvP getting fixed boys. XD
Again, if you are regularly harassing the opponent, you are not turtling. Turtling is when you focus on securing your territory to the exclusion of creating and sending forces to attack the enemy.
If you spend multiple minutes on end building defenses without trying to attack the opponent, that is turtling, If you are poking, prodding, or sending out some suicide waves every minute or so, that is not turtling. It also doesn’t matter whether the harassment takes the form of a Hellion/Cyclone runby, Banshees, a Bio drop, Liberator harassment, Thor drops Battlecruisers strafe, Viking drop, Oracles, Zergling/Baneling runby, Mutalisks, etc. The fact that you are attacking the opponent regularly means that you are not turtling.
This is about turtling, not simply nerfing a large branch of a faction’s tech tree. For this comparison to work, you have to consider how those Void Rays are used.
Are they simply kept on the defensive at all times, or is the player trying to take out structures, workers, or possibly the enemy army (things like Roaches) out on the map. If the buff mostly benefits aggressive play, then it falls in line with the first goal that the balance council laid out.
The Hellion buff mostly affects hellion harassment. It fits both goal #1 and goal #3 as laid out by the balance council.
According to liquipedia:
"Turtling is a term commonly used to describe very defensive play, in which the turtling player hides within your opponent’s base building up heavy defenses. The term originates from the way turtles use their shell to defend against predators.
Turtling is most often employed by the Terran race, as the Siege Tank splash and range, Missile Turret anti-air capabilities, and the Bunker durability in addition to the ability to be repaired make the Terran defensive incredibly resistant against enemy attacks and ideal for this style of play."
Meaning your excusion of creating and sending forces to attack the enemy is simply not valid.
Again: Blue flame hellion is used in mech. A turtle style. A buff to blue flame hellion would not buff the camping per se, but the camping style.
A turtle strategy is commonly used in real-time strategyvideo games. When turtling, the player protects their territory, to the exclusion of creating forces for attacking the enemy.
Turtling is a term commonly used to describe very defensive play, in which the turtling player hides within your opponent’s base building up heavy defenses. The term originates from the way turtles use their shell to defend against predators.
The common thread in both definitions is that the player is playing almost exclusively on the defensive. Harassment does not fit the definition of turtling. If you are harassing the opponent, then you are not turtling, at least not in that moment.
Or do you consider it turtling if a player doesn’t send ALL of their units out together in one or two blobs, leaving their base undefended. That’s just stupid if your army isn’t mobile, or if it hasn’t reached the mass it needs to trade effectively without a wall.
The Blue Flame Hellion change mostly affects worker harassment, battle-mech, and a few edge cases. Turtle mech is much more reliant on the Hellbat mode which was not buffed.
That does not mean you dont build ANY. It means rather than building an army right away you build defense. So you can amass your army in peace.
It does very well and fits in the terran mech playstyle since you will float a bunch of minerals.
Ofc you are. Or do you unsiege and unbuild all your tanks and planetaries? This is the literal goal of turtle. If you use 6 hellions, you dont use a crucial amount of force. You still have all your defenses set up.
If you have a defensive playstyle and camp behind tanks, turrets, bunkers and sims city you are pretty much a turtle They do it, so they can safely amass a huge army.
Or what do you think the fuss is all about when they buff liberator? A unit that CAN be used to turtle AND to harass. People have literally meltdowns because they buffed the liberator which promotes turtle play.
And regular mech. Therefore the change promotes turtle style.
One massive push after the opponent loses a large chunk of army. The goal is to kill the opponent before they can rebuild.
One massive push after you finish your build.
Secure expansions as needed and trade so efficiently that the opponent runs out of resources trying to kill you.
No, it means that you don’t attack with the units you are building, because the goal is to win with one of the three methods listed above, rather than harassing or potentially trading out units in skirmishes.
No. Harassment is literally not turtling. If you are harassing the opponent, you are not turtling. A turtling player can still use those Minerals for walls, defensive units, turrets, Orbital Commands, Planetaries, Spines, Spores, Cannons, etc instead of attacking.
Where does it say that in your listed up definitions? Because they havent spoken about the game winning conditions at all.
So you really unsiege and unbuild all your tanks and planetaries?
Again an 600 mineral investment that you will have either way will not negate your camping playstyle of having 20 siege tanks. One definetly outweighs the other.
Again: so i could claim im not turtleing when i amass carriers behind my 40 cannons and shield bats only because i used zealot harass 1 or 2 times. Because guess what is the suggested playstyle vs turtle? Greed. What punishes greed? If you start to harass your opponent that is spread out on 6 bases. There is plenty of room to harass. This is logically the correct thing to do. A niche variant of turtleing is when you are planning to hit the enemy with a certain harass, cheese or all in. This is obviously not completly turtle, but its possible to wall in as zerg in zvz with spines and go mutas, nearly same with protoss and dts. Or going to camp in your base to build swarm hosts nydus. You abuse the defense of a structure and of terrain so you cannot be attack effectively allowing you for a certain key win condition. Be it because you amassed a late game army or be it because you used a tech route to victory. But again, that can be niche.
Again, I literally played against bunch and bunch and bunch of turtle players who exactly did that. Why? Because you build hellions anyway, you build liberators anyway. So you gonna harass with them to stop your opponent from completly roaming free. I literally did this also. Was i insulted as a turtle player? yes ofc. rightfully so.
Again spending 600 mins doesnt compare to spending 7000/7000 spent in siege tanks, turrets, planetaries etc.
Is it really your hill to die on? You wont agree that you can still be a camper even if you did a hellion runby twice?
There is another one. Frustration. Ive Seen many Guys, Most of them zerg, who Just dont have the Patience or nerves to Play that Game. Sometimes they think they can bust through and to lose their Army and getting counter Attacked. Some Just dont want to Play against that at all since its so boring and you need to do so much more than the Turtle. (This reads a Bit Like His Number 1 but i wanted to get to the psychological aspect).
And the other one i have mentioned too. You can Turtle into going for a Kind of Tech as a win condition. Hoping to win or doing enough damage so you have the Advantage in a Low Eco Game.
but yeah mostly its about massing a huge Army. But if someone reads: plays defensely with defending mechanics rather than building an Army and attacking the opponent into: never does anything Else except sitting Back and defending, then ill ask Them where the win condition is because in their source there is Not Stated a win condition. It Just vaguely explains the Playstyle.
Why do you harass as a Turtle ? Because your opponent cant Attack into you. You are Safe. You build the harass Units anyway. Hellions and liberators can be used and are used in lategame mech armies. So you could Just harass with Them right away. Your opponent will quickly as possible expand and tries to swarm you. You can prolong the Moment where He has the means to do so. Especially zerg is Sometimes so easy to harass. Just Shift Set Up a bunch of liberators and while the zerg tries to kill the libs with Queens you Hit Them with a hellion Squad.
If i would use His Definition strictly then there are Like No turtles above 3k mmr because they all will do at least Something Else to harass. A Banshee. A liberator. Hellion runby, hell, even a BC. But it doesnt Change the fact that their Playstyle is Camping with a Lot of Sensor towers, turrets, siege Tanks and planetaries so you have No Hope in attacking into Them early but also that there is Not threat coming from them early.
That is the result of simple analysis of the win conditions. Assuming that the opponent doesn’t just give up when the game lasts longer than 20 minutes, in which case they probably don’t have the temperament to play RTS games in the first place.
Do you destroy all of your Photon Cannons and bum rush everything out of your bases whenever you decide to poke at something?
No defensive Stalkers, no Warp Gates to warp in defenders, no High Templar to Feedback or Storm units from Medivacs, no units left on your side of the map at all, etc?
Bio often leaves Tanks or other units on defense, so does Zerg with Queens & Crawlers, and so does Protoss. Is that turtling to you?
Harassing with Hellions, Thor drops, Banshees, etc isn’t much different from Zealot Warp ins or Storm drops; which often are used while the main Protoss army is still on their side of the map. Is that turtling to you?
Try every minute or so, without spending nearly so many minerals on Cannons.
Building and using Carriers will take time. You need a lot of Stargates and at least 2 production cycles of units to produce enough to be effective. The same is that case with almost any Tech-Lab Factory or Starport unit that you aren’t simply planning to sack. By your definition of turtling, those units really can’t be used without the player being accused of turtling; or without the player repeatedly sacking the units in low numbers.
Like I said, every minute or so, not just twice in a 30 minute game.
I said its still turtle style when you amass like 14 tanks and some pfs with turrets to simply sit back and macro.
And while your heavy hitters will take time, you can amass a harassment troops of hellions way quicker. Meaning with turtle style mech you have your occasional harassment, which is getting buffed. You now change the topic to: if you harass every minute with a bunch of hellions, then its not turtle. While that statement might also not be 100% correct, its still a vastly different topic.
Again: In your definitions the playstyle is vaguely described. You have huge amount of static d and defense. But that doesnt mean you dont harass. It means your goal in the first 10 minutes is not to win by bruteforce and building army where you attack the enemy army. But you obviously can still build units that are harassment units.
Never said i did. But your statement is false that you are not turtleing when you are in the moment of harassment. Because all your static d and tanks are still there. You are still safe and protected and the enemy cant attack you. You. still. turtle. Your key buildings and units are still protected behind layers and layers of thick walls.
The simple result of analysis is that harassment fits every style. If you want to win with turtle, you gotta harass at some point, otherwise your opponent will just swarm you before your army is big enough.
You are changing the story and my premises. I said if you hide behind over 10 siegetanks with turrets and pf then you are turtleing. If you go for a hellion harass, you dont suddenly arent a turtle anymore. Your “shell” is still there.
And if you are constantly attacking the opponent, and move out when you have enough Tanks, Thors, Battlecruisers, Carriers, whatever? Is that still turtling then?
Do you consider it turtling when a player waits for the Medivac before doing a Widow Mine drop too?
I have two issues with your comments so far:
You are characterizing a direct buff to aggressive plays as a buff to turtling. That is simply wrong.
Your definition of turtling is so damn broad that pretty much anything aside from an all in qualifies as turtling.
Believe it or not, that’s a totally valid way to win. Some turtle players only play to prolong the game and exhaust their opponent. A normal turtle player will still take advantage of weaknesses by doing counter attacks and things of that nature. But a turtler who is aiming at wearing out their opponent will take no action that is capable of reducing the game duration. This is particularly smart in a tournament because you can wear them out in a long series if you conserve your own energy and drag the game out as much as possible at the start of the series. You go into future games fresher and that’s a huge advantage. But if you are playing to prolong, you also maximize the probability of a random disconnect.
There were only 2 people on the NA gm that played this kind of turtle style and neither one plays SC2 anymore. One was Avilo and the other was Playa, who was kinda Protoss flavored version of Avilo. Avilo went down in flames from stalking a chick, and Playa went down in flames by accusing Blizzard of being in a racist conspiracy to replace him, Playa, with a version of him with the “proper” skin color aka MaxPax which was obviously absurd. SC2 esports is highly ethnically diverse and if you can’t win it’s because you’re not as good as MaxPax and it’s that simple. His theory receives bonus points for absurdity because nobody knows what MaxPax’s ethnicity is. He could be anyone. He also talked about the Illuminati. He legit believed the Illuminati were real.
It’s an interesting coincidence that the two people who played to maximize the suffering of other players ironically ended up with similar outcomes. That’s an interesting pattern.
That wasnt the Point . And you still wouldnt do it with Hellion buff. They Said its Underused in mech. Meaning they know that its Not used that often and want to buff it
Also there is a difference between attacking and harassing.
Then you move from the completly Turtle Playstyle to active Playstyle with a Chance to Turtle again.
Why are you constantly Switching the discussion?
You still dont understand:
Blue Flame hellion in itself is Not a Turtle unit. However Turtle mech is the Most used strat in mech. They Stated they wanted to buff the Underused harass with Hellions. Meaning NO they are Not constantly harassing with Hellions. They want them to have better harass Options. Blue Flame Hellions is only used in mech Play
Therefore they promote mech Play and thus Turtle Style. This is it. This is all
It really isnt. Not even Close. You Just derail the topic. I Said: If you sit behind 14 Tanks and 3 pfs with turrets and you do the occasional hellion harass which is Underused you are still turtleing.
You Switch the topic to: If you harass every Minute or If you wait for medivacs…this is Just Not the topic at all and i have actually denied that this would be turtleing.
I Just dont understand how we can actually have a discussion about if its turtleing If you sit behind 14 Tanks maybe some libs, some Pfs and turrets. Jesus Christ. Ofc its turtleing.
It’s alright. Sentry hasn’t turtled once in his life as Protoss. He refuses to use tempests, he’s probably only played it once, gotten overrun by being overly aggressive and went right back to his carrier lategame. Does the turtle have a claw? Nope. It never goes out of it’s shell. Become the turtle.
I did. When they buffed voids. So i also did the skytoss turtle, since we knew it was a losing game to try to go ground. They specifically said that even in patch notes.
I also did it when i first reached like 4.2k mmr with terran in like 2 months without playing any terran beforehand. I did a mech turtle style with liberator harass vs terran and protoss and hellbat drop harass vs zerg. So im kinda baffled why anyone would call my style not turtleing because thats what i basically did. You cannot attack into me while i harassed the sh!t out of you until my army was big enough to kill you. Same with skytoss turtle. Its a basic principle in sc2 in general to harass, especially in turtle. Because the safety of turtleing actually allows you to harass much better. For example if you know you cannot be attack in like pvp or pvz you could build an oracle to harass. If you fear an attack you might rather build a void. And especially if you want to build the turtle units anyway you might aswell harass with them. Also you need room to expand and obviously you want to be left in peace. Your opponent shouldnt be able to look for holes in your defense, neither should you be outmaneuvered since turtle terran is very slow. Once there is an opening, you gonna get whipped. And as often said before harassment hinders the enemy to get their massive army out quickly and levels the eco between you two. Because if you just turtle, the enemy will outgrow you. If you cant end it all with 1 attack you are 100% dead. If your one push fails but you still have evenish eco and production behind, then you have a chance.
Harassment is fundamental in sc2 and even more fundamental in turtle style. (also bonus topic: you can force your opponent into an all in if you did enough harassment damage; forcing your opponent to all in is pretty dope if you turtle)
For example liberator is a siege or harassment unit. Hellions can be transformed to hellbats which are used for turtle mech, while hellions are good for harassment. Meaning we have good synergy for harassment and turtle.
Its simple 1+1 logic.
Do you know the snapping turtle?
It. Snaps.^^
It snaps all your workers. All of them.
And then it snaps you.
Nah i only watched heromarine vs reynor when they reworked cyclones.
Where heromarines cyclones got caught but he still managed to smoke reynor. Wasnt it like a 2:0 or a 3:0? didnt remeber. But it was hsc.
I like the idea of making the mothership stronger. It makes the races even more different, however, what’s the point of empowering the mothership if it still won’t survive for more than a second? For years, they still haven’t addressed the issue of mothership being abductable. From the game standpoint, that’s the main cause of -400/400. 1-2 spells from a unit that can recharge energy anytime and the hero unit becomes zero. From the lore standpoint, it is ridiculous how a unit can harpoon a flying city/continent.
If you want to keep mothership abductable, fine. At least give it a spell that makes it worthwhile to take the -400/400 risk. What about making time warp slow even more, now that hydras have a.7 sec stim? Or bring back a mini-version of the vortex with super-long cooldown? The “screw you” time warp before death just won’t cut it.
They do it, so they can safely amass a huge army.
