Ya'll already got your tank nerf

[Natorian-1907]

The key to making tanks not replace dps is to not let supports enable them that far.

Did you take into account the symbiosis that exist between tanks and supports though?

If you nerf either too much it will make the other neigh unplayable. Damage dealers do not have a true supportive companant. If supports as a role become too weak they cannot support tanks so tanks stop being used. If tanks become too weak supports cannot protect themselves enough and people stop playing supports.

No matter how you change tanks and healers, damage dealers will continue to have the benefit of not needing tanks or supports to at bare minimum be playable.

It seems to me the “opinions” that exist in the forums are tank and support players wanting damage dealers to have a place in each level of the game. While Damage players want tanks and healers to go play another game.

[HyenaHeart-1307]

In my opinion it is a triangle and every role needs the other two to help. Or at least it should be… but again, tanks take the role of damage dealer.

[Vex-12250]

D: D.Va os so fun smh.

[SlayerAdam-21497]

Why should a singular Damage Dealer Ultimate be a threat to tanks?

Because damage dealers should be good at killing?

Lastly, I repeat if I eat a full Pulse Bomb it more than likely I am dead anyway, even though it does less damage now.

I don’t share that experience of yours. There is a lot of burst healing in the game.

Damage Dealers want to be the star of the show. They want the least amount of responsibility and feel that their gameplay should be paramount in how the match plays out.

They definitely should be a lot more important than they are now.
Supports and tanks may not be flashy, but they are much more powerful.

Tanks only compete in damage if your DPS are incompetent, or you are watching pro players.

Overbuff. There are a few damage heroes above Zarya Dva and Roadhog, all of them are spammers, save for Bastion, who is conveniently also hard countered by Roadhog.

Ok yeah but that’s only because they literally aren’t tanks.

But tanks are in fact damage heroes.

The meta right now is all about brawling. Dps are designed to assissinate are target through the enemies’ defenseses with precision, range, mobility, and fast killing times.

There are also a bunch of front line close range dps heroes, who are significantly weaker than tanks.
Dps heroes are very versatile, yet none of them are viable.

No matter how you change tanks and healers, damage dealers will continue to have the benefit of not needing tanks or supports to at bare minimum be playable.

What? Dps heroes really do need both of those.
I mean sure, you can shoot people and have fun with no tanks and supports, but if one of the teams would pick a tank and a support they have a big advantage, even with balanced tanks and supports.

Which is fine, really, team comp mattering a bit is okayish, but that advantage gain should stop at 2 tanks and 2 supports at most.
They you should have a serious lack of damage.

[Deku-21986]

I got a 4k outside of a combo in high plat using a D.Va bomb only.

[Deykar-2772]

Which tank gets a damage nerf?

[Mitrovarr-1405]

I think the problem isn’t what supports can enable the tanks to do, and more what tanks can do when enabled.

Like, using Lucio to drive Reinhardt into the enemy team shouldn’t be a win where he hammers everyone to death, it should be a stupid way to get the main tank killed. Most of the main tanks are just too good at fighting. Also, they have other perks they don’t need that make them better at killing; Earthshatter has nothing to do with Rein’s tanking ability yet it’s probably the biggest problem about him.

In fact most of the tanks have better offensive ults than DPS do. Even a weaker tank ult like self destruct is better than any DPS ult except EMP and blade.

[Rocktopus-11683]

Did you take into account the symbiosis that exist between tanks and supports though?

That’s why you nerf something like armor so healing hp as its being damaged isn’t so strong. Nerf utilities so they don’t break what keeps tanks in check.

In my opinion it is a triangle and every role needs the other two to help. Or at least it should be… but again, tanks take the role of damage dealer

Dps get to have independence, they could easily end up replacing tanks in a meta where supports are bad.

There are also a bunch of front line close range dps heroes, who are significantly weaker than tanks.

Who besides Reaper and Mei? My point was more that none of the brawler dps are that great at brawling (across ranks, at least).

But tanks are in fact damage heroes.

So is Zen.

I mean sure, you can shoot people and have fun with no tanks and supports, but if one of the teams would pick a tank and a support they have a big advantage, even with balanced tanks and supports.

Which is fine, really, team comp mattering a bit is okayish, but that advantage gain should stop at 2 tanks and 2 supports at most.
They you should have a serious lack of damage

GOATS does lack dps elements though. It has no range and no mobility besides Lucio’s aura, which is about to get nerfed.

The problem is that even without dps its better at brawling than a brawl oriented dps comp, and thats partially because of utilities, and partially because dps brawlers aren’t very good. The best one, Mei, is the only one that is getting any traction.

Which tank gets a damage nerf?

Hopefully none of them.

Like, using Lucio to drive Reinhardt into the enemy team shouldn’t be a win where he hammers everyone to death, it should be a stupid way to get the main tank killed.

How come tanks can’t be allowed to do anything besides shield? Speed boosting a Rein into the enemy should be difficult and have counterplay, hence nerfs to the utility and buffs to damage.

What shouldn’t happen is that its impossible to do things solo as tanks because they’re balanced around other heroes’ being OP, balanced around being focused by three healers and boosted by two tanks 24/7 as if thats normal.

[Mitrovarr-1405]

How come tanks can’t be allowed to do anything besides shield?

Because they have sooooo many huge buffs to be shields. if you give tanks even a little bit of damage capability, their HUGE HUGE HUGE survivability advantages make them immediately better at it than DPS.

Or to put it another way - if you get a decent gun I want Ashe to have 500 hp. Or is it only ok when your role gets to share in another role’s advantages?

[HyenaHeart-1307]

It is weird because if you did ask for the reverse and have 200 hp dps buffed to 400 hp, 250 dps buffed to 500 and… Bastion, buffed to 600. All of a sudden they would be screaming broken even though their argument is that apparently having a bigger health pool just enables them to feed more. Rofl. I would take slight damage nerfs for double the HP. Hands down.

[Rocktopus-11683]

if you give tanks even a little bit of damage capability, their HUGE HUGE HUGE survivability advantages make them immediately better at it than DPS.

Than how come Roadhog, the epitome of being a dps tank, is the worst one right now? Has been for a long time, actually.

Or to put it another way - if you get a decent gun I want Ashe to have 500 hp.

None of the tanks have dps weaponry. Tanks are designed to hold space defensively, dps weapons break through with range and precision like Ashe has or mobility and burst like Genji.

As an example:

Hog can hook you into a kill combo but because thats his main source of value its to precious to waste offensive. You try to bait out enemy cooldowns when they’re attacking into you and your whole 20 meters of hook range so you can eliminate someone encroaching on your space. His weapon has inconsistent damage, bad range, and the alt fire has a delayed pin-point detonation so its easy to run away. Oh, and he feeds like a banquet. This restricts Roadhog to tank playstyle.

Damage doesn’t equal dps hero.

It is weird because if you did ask for the reverse and have 200 hp dps buffed to 400 hp, 250 dps buffed to 500 and… Bastion, buffed to 600. All of a sudden they would be screaming broken even though their argument is that apparently having a bigger health pool just enables them to feed more.

Because usually tank hp comes with a tank hitbox and tank range, as well as tank mobility; as well as whatever other exploitable weaknesses the devs add. Orisa is certainly a victim of this, designed to get outplayed and overwhelmed, but I guess thats the cost of range on a tank.

[Mitrovarr-1405]

None of the tanks have dps weaponry.

Zarya literally has a better version of Symmetra’s gun. I would say that Roadhog’s is arguably better than Reaper’s, too.

[HyenaHeart-1307]

My beef is with Zarya and she does not really have those limitations. Her hitbox is relatively small, more on par with a 250 HP hero or Bapstion, she has a lot of range on her beam and an alternative fire for more distance if she needs it. The only real issue is mobility. She just had her mini-rocket jump which is still better than Soldier’s in terms of practical use. She is literally just a better DPS. There is really no disputing it.

[Rocktopus-11683]

You need to play defensively to charge it up, where as Sym charges up by attacking, and Sym’s alt fire and turrets give her better range than Zarya, plus her teleporter gives her whole team better mobility than Zarya.

But yeah, if you only compare their beams than Zarya’s is way better than Sym but i think that proves Sym is underpowered before it proves that Zarya is overpowered anyway.

I would say that Roadhog’s is arguably better than Reaper’s, too

Reaper’s is better at point blank, but because Reaper isn’t designed to accomplish that, Hog’s gun is better.

My beef is with Zarya and she does not really have those limitations.

I also think Zarya is the least restricted of the tanks, she can perform the job of a dps better than any of them. Her damage is supposed to be reliant on playing her like a tank, but this meta is so brawly that she might as well be a dps. Still, that has a lot to do with the meta we’re in and the state of brawler dps.

Her hitbox is relatively small, more on par with a 250 HP hero or Bapstion,

Lol, Bastion 100% has a tank hitbox, poor guy. [quote=“MoonShock-1957, post:73, topic:318811”]
she has a lot of range on her beam and an alternative fire for more distance if she needs it
[/quote]

Still really close range, and her alt fire only lets her fight in mid range, but she’s not good at it, she just can reach it.

The only real issue is mobility. She just had her mini-rocket jump which is still better than Soldier’s in terms of practical use.

I think 76’s is better because it can be used in conjuction with his sprint for big air, it just does too much self damage to be really practical.

Zarya’s range is too short to make very effective use of high ground, you’re just going to be spamming orbs like a worse Junkrat up there. Besides, she doesn’t really benifit from jumping away from her team like that either, and its only a bit of mobility. You could remove it and nothing would change.

[SlayerAdam-21497]

Who besides Reaper and Mei? My point was more that none of the brawler dps are that great at brawling (across ranks, at least).

Symmetra.

GOATS does lack dps elements though. It has no range and no mobility besides Lucio’s aura, which is about to get nerfed.

The tanks do actually have a high damage output.

Hopefully none of them.

They need to lose something from their power though.

How come tanks can’t be allowed to do anything besides shield?

Can dps heroes main heal, or tank?

What shouldn’t happen is that its impossible to do things solo as tanks because they’re balanced around other heroes’ being OP, balanced around being focused by three healers and boosted by two tanks 24/7 as if thats normal.

Tanks are quite probably the strongest class in the game. Maybe supports, idk, I keep changing my mind about that…

But if you ever want solo tank to be meta, tanks (and supports) need to be weaker, not stronger. You pick fewer from the weak heroes, not the strong ones.

[Rocktopus-11683]

Symmetra

I think she’s more of a midrange hero.

The tanks do actually have a high damage output.

They have damage but it only works right in front of them. Its enough when the meta is mirror matches mashing into each other but it makes GOATS bad at a lot of dps things, like picking off supports.

Can dps heroes main heal, or tank?

Can a tank snipe? Til then, ya’ll have things like biotic field and ice wall.

if you ever want solo tank to be meta, tanks (and supports) need to be weaker, not stronger. You pick fewer from the weak heroes, not the strong ones.

What i meant was that i hate the idea of nerfing tanks when the only reason we’re in a tank meta is because they’re being hard enabled by other heroes. Instead of nerfing synergizes so tanks aren’t so strong, people want to nerf tanks without touching what actually got us to this point so tanks are on an even tighter leash.

[Eclipse-1391]

Bah. Dva’s not even a good enough DPS to be considered a DPS.

Even if you have 100% accuracy, if you hit with all twelve missiles, they still only do like 6 more damage than a single soldier rocket.

Like, what the crap is that??

[B0tMelon-1504]

Agree with the healing point but tanks really dont have enough decent counters. Dva is not countered by any decent dps (sym and mei are trash everywhere else)

[SlayerAdam-21497]

Than how come Roadhog, the epitome of being a dps tank, is the worst one right now? Has been for a long time, actually.

And he is immediately better than dps heroes.
That’s exactly what I said about cross class balance not long ago…

I’m talking about tanks, supports and dps heroes being directly compared.

If anybody were to call Moira OP, people would start pointing out that she is actually one of the lesser picked supports at higher ELO, when the issue is that she can run over dps heroes too easily, while being a main healer.

There is also the issue of people starting to ramble something about apples and oranges… But they are all heroes in the same game, they NEED to be compared.

None of the tanks have dps weaponry. Tanks are designed to hold space defensively, dps weapons break through with range and precision like Ashe has or mobility and burst like Genji.

Yeah, they do, sometimes even better. Like Roadhog vs Reaper again. Symmetra vs Zarya.
And like defensive? Dive tanks exist. How is that defensive.

This restricts Roadhog to tank playstyle.

Roadhog’s hook is one of the best pick abilities in the game. Some where near Rinhardt’s charge.

Because usually tank hp comes with a tank hitbox and tank range, as well as tank mobility; as well as whatever other exploitable weaknesses the devs add. Orisa is certainly a victim of this, designed to get outplayed and overwhelmed, but I guess thats the cost of range on a tank.

Even the hitbox isn’t universally true.
Tank mobility is amazing, and only a few dps heroes out range tanks…
And as far as Orisa goes, her design is that she puts down barriers, and presents the enemy team with an almost impenetrable dps check.
The way you pass that check is generally by picking a bunch of tanks! Switching dps heroes for tanks is a very good strategy when it comes to playing against Orisa, because damage heroes are bad at damage.

I think she’s more of a midrange hero.

Her right click is or spamming only, her primary fire is 12m, significantly shorter than Zarya’s beam.

Can a tank snipe?

Not yet.
Roadhog’s hook is pretty close though.

What i meant was that i hate the idea of nerfing tanks when the only reason we’re in a tank meta is because they’re being hard enabled by other heroes. Instead of nerfing synergizes so tanks aren’t so strong, people want to nerf tanks without touching what actually got us to this point so tanks are on an even tighter leash.

So what are you suggesting?
Because I suggest a blanket damage and healing nerf.

Bah. Dva’s not even a good enough DPS to be considered a DPS.

She is on par with Zarya and Roadhog.

[HyenaHeart-1307]

A Soldier rocket is 120 damage which is basically sniper/explosive range. The highest damage value in the game to the body… pretty good for a tank that is already going to be close. It just helps her burst someone down. It is not supposed to be an instakill button. Rofl.