Why should people feel that perfectly executing ultimates, with coordinated teamplay should be canceled out because someone pressed a do-over button?
Seems like a “you shouldn’t get attached to the idea that your ultimate will have a lot of impact, except for Mercy. Feel pitty for Mercy because her ultimate isn’t impactful. Even though she’d played a ton at high levels.”.
A “do-over” button is no different than pressing Q to wipe an enemy team. If you “perfectly execute” an ultimate and have so much team coordination then you should be ready to do-over the “do-over” button. You shouldn’t have this idea in your head that pressing Q is gonna CHANGE THE GAME no matter how much thought you put in it, mercy’s included. It was easy to wipe a rez, just as easy as it was for mercy to rez them. Making their rez not so impactful, thats counterplay. I dont play mercy so if you’re assuming im asking for pity as a mercy player, you’re mistaken. I truly feel that she was never a problem
I disagree with your final point quite a bit. I do think teams should be allowed (or more aptly, given a fair chance) to win if they execute more ults than the enemy does, especially if they invest all of their ultimates into that fight wisely. The keyword here is “invest” because the profits of using all your ults is high risk, moderate reward. You might be able to clear an objective with six ults, but then you’re easy pickings for the next encounter. With Mercy involved, not only would all the ultimates still be dumped, but they don’t even get anything out of it, even if it was otherwise the right play to make.
No hero should be able to counter that, much less with an ultimate that has fantastic power in lesser situations anyway. That is NOT a balanced ultimate and it does not lead to a balanced hero or fun games.
Something funny here too is the assumption that every fight is a 6v6 ult fight. As in, every ultimate is available, and there were just soooooooo many stupid players, so many dumb individuals that just couldn’t get a handle on their trigger finger, that poor Blizzard had to accommodate these troglodytes by nerfing Mercy. The punchline to this joke is that the reason so many fights would have teams holding onto six ults… was because of Mercy’s Resurrect. People held onto their ultimates because they knew they would just get washed away if used carelessly. And when a team builds up six ultimates, it’s only natural that a LOT get used all at once – that’s literally the advantage in their hand of cards, it’s meant to be played like that – but again, we don’t call Mercy the problem for that, the problem is apparently these chimpanzees with keyboards we call “DPS players.”
How many times does your team even get wiped by one ultimate like you’re implying here? The implication that one or two ultimates always guarantees a team wipe, and that one or two more after that would just solidify the same team wipe? Not every ultimate has the potential to team wipe, many ultimates won’t even contribute a single kill because that’s now what they do. This idea that everyone was just foolishly using ultimates like they were candy and then complained when Mama Mercy put them on a diet is just ridiculous.
You know that’s wrong.
Any offensive ultimate can be defeated by shooting at a highly visible target, throwing up a shield, or popping a Lucio/Zen Ult.
There is strong, well defined counterplay.
The counterplay to preventing a Rez though is not anywhere near the same as that.
Especially now that Roadhog can’t always confirm a kill on a hooked target, and D.va has a resource meter to easily block incoming fire on a Mercy.
I literally need you to explain this circumstance because I cannot for the life of me imagines a single ultimate that is “press Q and everyone around you instantly dies while you are invulnerable.” I need to know which ultimate this is so I know what hero to start playing every game. The closest I can think of is Junkrat, and even he has a prep-time to launch Rip-Tire, can’t have it be destroyed while it’s prepped, he himself is a sitting duck, and the explosive radius not only gets weaker the further you get, but it’s significantly shorter than the range of Mercy’s old Resurrect.
Heck, Junkrat even needs to trigger his bomb, so that’s a Q press and a left-click, right away that’s double the work Mercy had to do.
PLEASE tell me which hero can just as easily wipe a team as Mercy could revive them.
You overestimate a majority of the playerbase greatly. Why does a team deserve to be rewarded for using all their ults when they’re still going to be punished for it with or without this ult? If a team is gonna be easily taken down in the next team fight after using all ults, why does it matter if a team gets rezzed if the same outcome will occur?
Holding ults to counter another isn’t uncommon. Having all 6 ults doesn’t mean you should use them all to gain an advantage. Thats not the idea that players should have when playing at all. If this was the case why would ult economy matter.
Okay so you were over here talking about how someone can get an AMAZING play and wipe the team so I was using the same argument. You can use 2 ults to wipe a team or non at all if the plays are just right. The point is it was never difficult to wipe the team again if you CLEARLY had an advantage before the whole team got rezzed or maybe a few people. If you had an advantage you usually kept that advantage after the rez
Because complains of these who love to throw all ultimates at once, plus the SR exploit which encouraged you to do huge reses only.
Moira has faster heals than Mercy AND she brings a fair bit of DPS and a decently impactful, fast-charging ult to the tables so if she’s allegedly also more survivable, then why is she so much less picked?
Oh.
Because it turns out one short-distance, non-vertical escape every 6 seconds (far less, actually, since she’s also obligated to use fade for keeping up with mobile teammates) and a bit of self-healing won’t make a difference when you’re getting dove. Biotic Grasp’s healing is a drop in dry sand against somebody who can aim, and relying on your orb for self-healing is about as viable as relying on your Biotic Grenade for self healing.
Ana and Moira can also heal somebody fast. Both can heal faster than Mercy actually. So that’s probably not the thing that sets Mercy apart. Ana and Moira do have some hangups in their throughput that Mercy does not have, but they also have backups (nade for Ana, orb for Moira) and second healers are a thing, so it’s very manageable, and hardly a bad price to pay for the utility you get out of Ana and the DPS you get out of Moira.
Pharmercy is hella niche these days, but yeah. You got me there. Mercy’s uniquely useful for that one strategy that shows up in the minority of matches and isn’t all that strong against players who can aim. Pharmercy has such an impact that Pharah has never been good and Mercy has been all the way down to F-Tier even with Pharmercy as an option. lol.
Moira and Ana can both be killed if you want them dead. Moira is not exactly a free kill but she’s not hard to focus down, either. Mercy on the other hand? If you go after, she’ll just move to wherever you’re not, and if her teammates have any sort of awarness at all, you’ll die trying to follow her.
You’re putting words into my mouth… or taking words out of it? You’ll notice that when I talked about countering Mercy, I mentioned several things other than just switching. There are several ways to deal with another hero. But you still have yet to tell me even one of those ways that you ‘outplay’ a Mercy other than just carrying on as usual, but doing a bit more damage to the enemy team than the enemy team does to you. And I don’t know what elo you play at where nobody ever counters Soldier 76. Shield, duh? Positioning, duh? Some guy on his micophone saying “we really need to focus that Soldier, he’s kicking our butts.” When, since her latest nerfs, has a Mercy even been a significant issue that made you think, “wow we really gotta deal with that Mercy, she’s wrecking us.”
You don’t.
At most, you just think your DPS must suck because, really, you kind of expect a decent DPS player to be able to secure kills even if the enemy Mercy is alive and healing.
And that was my entire point, before you decided to move the goalposts all over the place. Mercy is viable right now. But her strategic impact is nonexistant. In a game that should be about weighing and balancing what each hero brings to the table, about recognizing each enemy’s contribution and working to disrupt it, Mercy brings nothing but a passive health buff to her teammates.
So now, in her current state, people can feel free to ignore her existence, just like they’ve always wanted to. You don’t have to worry about her ult messing up your big push because, don’t worry, Valk isn’t going to stop anything. Sure, securing kills would be a bit easier without a Mercy on the other team but killing the Mercy is harder than killing her heal target, or re-killing her rez target, so you’ve got a legitimate excuse to never worry about focusing the support unless she’s presented herself as a free kill.
Anyway, I’m not just basing this off of Mercy. Moira, like Mercy 1.5, is balanced and can be played around, but if you ignore her she’ll kill you, so people complain. Brigitte may or may not be balanced, but if you ignore her she’ll stun/kill you, and people complain. Used to be you couldn’t ignore Mercy or she’d rez your kills, and people complained. Now you can ignore Mercy, and the complaining has stopped. Fancy that.
I can’t think of any DPS class that you can really ignore. Nobody seems to mind having to change up their strategy or focus on a DPS that’s doing well to win a game. But if you have to lift a finger to deal with a support, even if that support player is very good at their job, wwhooaaa better tell Jeph
I’m not overestimating anything, I’m just having a conversation with the assumption that in the games we’re talking about, both teams are operating at even levels of play. And at even levels of play, Mercy’s Resurrect is extremely powerful, regardless of the circumstance, because it can undo anything the enemy has done, and at Mercy’s whim. That’s way, way too strong of a singular ability, especially one where all you need to do is watch a number go up and press Q when it’s the number you like.
I don’t think it’s unfair for a team to think that if they use all of their ultimates, or most of them, they expect to have some kind of advantage unless those ultimates were nullified by something else. So in a situation where a team uses many resources in the right situation, why should one resource be allowed to reverse all that? Why does this team need the added pressure to not only secure this play, but lockdown the hero that can reverse it, or pull off a SECOND play of equal value immediately after the first?
You can argue Resurrect had some counters and counterplay, but you can’t deny that it’s significantly less than any other ultimate, and much more strict in HOW you had to counter it. And this isn’t even mentioning the fact that because Mercy’s ultimate had such amazing potential, they had to keep her main kit weak and passive to keep her balanced. In the end, Resurrect was holding Mercy back because it could only be viable if it was overpowered, and it can only be overpowered if the rest of Mercy’s kit is vacant. Do you see how this rework completely changed that, so that Mercy now has power distributed much more evenly across her kit instead of a majority of it being wrapped up in a single ultimate?
I’m not going to argue about this “easy team wipe” thing until you can show me the hero you’re talking about that can team wipe, in your own words, “just as easy as it was for mercy to rez them,” which means finding me a hero that can instantly kill up to 5 players with a single button. Because until that’s proven to me, I am convinced we are playing completely different games.
Replace “hide” with “tactical retreat” and we’re good.
Because only bad mercies use hide and seek, and the generalization that all mercies use hide and seek is like splashing mud all over the face of aggresive styled mercies.
I cannot really see how you can look at Guardian Angel and genuinely say “this is a better survival tool than Fade.” Fade is instant, it cleanses Moira, it gives her enhanced mobility that she controls, and the six second cooldown is hardly a problem when she has two methods to self-heal if it really came to it. And if Moira is using Fade just to get to low health teammates, so much to the point that it’s a concern about how Fade is often on cooldown? It makes me think that this Moira we’re talking about doesn’t know how to manage her own skills, and forgot about Biotic Orb.
I consider all that MUCH better than a mobility option that not only requires her team to be present (taking away her independence), but it also requires said team to be in the right positions for her to flee. GA also doesn’t cleanse nor does it make Mercy invulnerable, I mean, you can still shoot her out of the sky in that extremely linear path she’s traveling. I don’t think anyone can reasonably agree with you on this point, Fade outclasses GA by a large margin and Moira’s survivability is so much greater than Mercy, so, clearly this isn’t the only reason Mercy gets picked nowadays.
You’re ignoring like half of Mercy’s kit. If you can only see Mercy’s entire value as “has survivability, provides passive heals,” you are considerably undermining the rest she can do, which is just… I mean it’s too obvious for me to list off, when I’m on a time limit to write. I will point out that while Valkyrie doesn’t have the same level of impact as something like Transcendence or Sound Barrier, it does have impact. Unfortunately, a lot of Mercys straight up do not use Valkyrie to its full potential, or use it in the wrong circumstances and wonder why a square peg won’t fit into a round hole. When used aggressively and to push, Valkyrie is a winning ultimate because this powerful support healer is now essentially unkillable to anything less than another ultimate, while providing even more support to her team at once, and with the ability to quickly jump to other positions to provide support where needed.
Yeah, no impact at all actually, because as we know the best and only way to use Valkyrie is to fly to the sky box and hold left click. My mistake.
The only reason I bring up Pharmercy is because it was easy to use as an example of Mercy not being used for survivability but for a combo. You can play it down all you want but I still countered your argument and your only response was, “well, Pharah sucks, so that doesn’t count.”
You’re really gonna say, no one seeks to kill Mercy first? Even though that’s, like, Target Prioritizing 101? Pick off the healer? What dimension is this argument from because I can hardly play a game with comms where someone isn’t telling us that we have to kill the Mercy first. Granted, I don’t hear it as much because Mercy is no longer SUCH a priority target that an entire fight is lost because she lived, but letting Mercy live through an entire combat is always going to be bad. You’re just letting a team get free heals and damage boost, with the potential of your picks getting reversed. If you’re letting Mercy live last intentionally… I dunno. You do your own thing. Maybe I am the bad player after all.
the mercy could just hide and get a big rez when their teammates would die. blizzard didnt like this because you werent healing your team
because “it wasnt fun to play, or fun to play against”
the old rez would promote hiding somewhere and letting your teammates die rather than trying to keep them alive, which completely goes against the point of a healer and wasnt fun to play as.
it wasnt fun to play against because if you coordinated 2 ultimates for a team wipe or got a clutch ultimate off, she could just rez everyone and it didnt matter what your team did, so it was a very defeating feeling.
Edit: God, all these new icons are throwing me for a loop, half of them look the same. Sorry KucingKadut, I accidentally mistook you for another user. Probably a sign I need to log off.
You can’t call these people “bad Mercies” just because they were using the mechanic in a way you didn’t, and also garnered success in their own rights. Sure, it’s not the BEST play to always hide-and-res, but that doesn’t mean a lot of people weren’t using it, nor does it mean that the mechanics weren’t guiding people to be playing this way. There’s a reason why this was an issue, it wasn’t some niche idea that was creepily existing in the underground of Overwatch, it was a very primary strategy for Mercy, and it was one that felt extremely unfun for all parties.
You managed to find fun with old Resurrect by using it in a way others weren’t, and that’s fantastic. In fact I’m really confident that your old style of play has probably transferred over well into Mercy 2.0, because aggressiveness is better awarded with her now. But that doesn’t mean the ability was acceptable, it doesn’t revert the fact that Mercy could always decide to disengage from the video game and then swoop in a minute later to make this huge, game-changing play. Blizzard doesn’t want that encouraged, and for good reason, and as long as old Resurrect existed the way it did, that was always going to be happening.
So, please, let’s drop the DPS main vs. Mercy main scthick. I’m begging. “Bad” or “whiny” DPS players were not the reason Mercy got reworked and the longer we keep that idea alive, the more toxicity we generate blatantly. That’s literally all this thought process does.
Because it countered DPS main’s carefully plotted solo ultimate, and instead of adapting and killing the healer first and play it as a team based shooter, they changed Mercy to accommodate this.
So now Genjis can fly around on a killing spree and be the happy little cyborg ninja, without having to worry about his ultimate being countered.
Called as the ‘‘engaging and fun’’ part of Mercy’s kit, I’m glad it’s gone. Abused by Mercy mains to gain a lot SR and in general made her stale. Not hard to counter at all.
How long does it take your team to kill a Mercy before a teamfight, because an 8 second respawn timer, and the fact she has to walk, because her teammates should all be getting killed means she won’t be back in time to rez more than two or three of them at best. And then that opens up the whole issue of “If you can’t deal with three enemies being rezzed because you have no ults left, you made mistakes.”
Overwatch is a chaotic game where a lot of things can happen suddenly. If your Widowmaker gets a sick kill on the enemy Mercy, but your team isn’t mobilized to move out and make up on it, then what? Does the team push forward anyway? If they do, that battle is not going to be too heavily in their favor, and the enemy can just draw out the fight until Mercy gets back – there’s generally two tanks and another healer after Mercy, you know. Or does your team wait until they’re ready, knowing that every second they delay is one more second for Mercy to come back, and they’re just not taking up on this free push?
And walking to the point is a lot easier for Mercy when she can glide the last 30 meters at high speeds.
Do you see now how Mercy 1.0 made good plays feel so terrible? You can do everything you’re supposed to do and be punished for it just because of an 8 second timer and a short walk.
Because encouraging a player, a healer no less, to actively hide and wait for their team to die is bad game design.
Also, it was miserable to play against, since she could rez through walls, gained invulnerability during rez so it’s not like the enemy would be at least down a man with a full team rez, and frankly, telling a member of your team to break off from the action and hunt down a Mercy lying in wait was just awful. Finally, that little window between when she reveals herself and gets in range for the rez is too small to consider the maneuver a risk, especially when she can panic rez the moment she takes damage and make a full recovery during her invulnerability phase.
Basically, if Mercy’s hadn’t clamored for invulnerability during rez and accepted needing LoS to make it work, they’d probably still have their mass rez back.