you took the actual average increase across all elo’s, tried to apply that increase alone to only the less than 1 percent of the playerbase, while also rounding them up to be 1% of the player base, and you somehow believe that is sound?
K.
I was right. This discussion was over before it started.
And this shows that you didn’t read or didn’t understand.
I never rounded anything since I directly applied the increase to that 1% of the playerbase.
1 = 1
If 1% of the playerbase is responsible for an increase of 200 healing in average, it means this 1% of the playerbase has had their healing increased by 200 000.
If you don’t want to apply it to 1% of the playerbase but less, feel free.
The formula to get the increase is 200/x
x being the percentage of the playerbase that you consider to be responsible for an increase of 200 in average.
Yes, you were right. I didn’t know I would ever had to explain that 1=1.
Now excuse me but I have better things to do.
I kinda like this. But I’ll miss Valk.
Just read this over to yourself a few times. I’m sure you’ll figure it out.
Edit: In fact, I’ll even help. Remember why you were attempting to do the math in the first place. You were doing it trying to prove that the average increase of the top less than one percent of the player base is insignificant. So, in order to do that, you applied the average increase across all elo’s directly to the less than 1 percent of the playerbase, which is already faulty considering that alone is improving the average increase of the less than 1 percent of the player base. Then you actually try to break it down even further by saying they’re the sole reason the average increase across all elo’s has improved by 200, which would mean they’re doing an insane amount of healing that by all accounts is actually impossible.
And as faulty as all of that already is, you have just assumed that the average of every other elo has stayed exactly the same, even though there is people in this same thread that fully admit to wasting valk, the potential increase in a healing average with the addition of chain beams, strictly just to fly back to spawn after their team dies without ever healing anyone.
come on.
Hey. Hey kaz.
It’s me, one of the 70 people from Titanium’s discord. And I have something that I wanted you to know: the only part any of us helped write in Titanium’s theisis was the rework suggestion. The rest is all Titanium. Give him some credit, man!
Once Titanium put the thread up, we all left a like and watched the like count go up (it make the #1 spot within its first week! Neat!). If we had the kind of power it takes to “orchestrate” a success as big as Titanium’s thread like count, we would have used that power to get Mercy fixed months ago. You give us too much credit for how much power we have over other people.
Titanium wrote a lot, and that includes explanations that clear up common minconceptions about how Mercy 1.0 played. Personal anecdote: When I come across a post in another part of the forums that holds one of those misconceptions (e.g. “hide n rez was the only way to play Mercy 1.0”), it’s much easier to just provide a link to Titanium’s thread (or post a quote) than spend an hour re-typing an explanation that I’ve typed countless times before. I know several others who do the same.
Yes, there’s a discord with a bunch of Mercy lovers in it. We chat and joke and commiserate over what Mercy’s been through. We complain about how the game’s been managed, and share memes. Please stop portraying it like it’s some kind of Illuminati conspiracy. We’re just a bunch of people who like the same hero, and have similar complaints about the game.
Anything but.
Honestly, i had thought I did. I mentioned my criticism with a good amount of the arguments made, while also agreeing with the overall result. I guess wasn’t the part he made though. Funny that.
That’s cool, but others have done more.
I’ve had a conversation with someone stating this before, and it doesn’t actually address what I mean, which I think comes from ambiguity in what I said.
I want to emphasize that I’m not discussing scenarios in which Mercy players said, “Hey, let’s push onto point, I have Rez in case we wipe.” I’m emphasizing those scenarios in which Mercy players quite aggressively and intentionally instructed the team to die on the point so that they could get the Rez. Yes, it did happen. I’m aware that this wasn’t every Mercy–I explicitly said so in my post you responded to–but it was indeed a problem that needed address.
I think it was misunderstood when Mercy players said something to the effect of “Let’s push, I have Rez.”
It’s hard to misunderstand when the statement is “just go die on point, I can Rez.”
One is non-strategy confining and reinforces the idea that the Mercy is prepared to play reactively. That’s fine. What’s not fine is the Mercy trying to force a proactive strategy involving the team dying specifically so they could do the Rez. That’s my point. And it’s why I like Titanium’s idea for Mass Rez, because between the added value for living teammates and the removal of the SR exploit months ago, I think that behavior would be almost entirely de-incentivized
Mercy is not terrible
B E T
xD
In future comments, could you please just call it “titanium’s thread” instead of “titanium and 70 other people’s thread”? Titanium is the one who wrote nearly the entire thing (save for the rework suggestion), he’s the one who deserves the overall credit.
Me and the other discorders have no problem sharing credit for the rework suggestion, but it just feels wrong to take credit for Titanium’s overall theisis-long post.
Lol i don’t believe i ever said that exactly, but I have said something along those lines. so yes, that’s more than fair, i can do that.
I still don’t personally believe this thread has got to where it was on merit alone, but that’s neither here nore there and honestly not something I care about. I’m here to discuss the arguments made, and wasn’t actually going to discuss the arguments made until i was tagged here.
It is anything but relaxed, as the healer in low ranks you are literally tasked with saving stupidity as much as you can. Just because I can get away with more, doesn’t mean it is relaxing to do so. In fact, it is more relaxing and easier on Moira for me to save stupidity than it ever was on Mercy.
And 60hps Mercy never stopped fights from being winnable but it helped win fights. She never negated damage indefinitely. And just because someone has the skills to make a character feel strong because they use them effectively by playing them in a way that reflects well on their team, they get punished for it. We started at 50hps and it didn’t work for her, at the very least we should have gone to 55 and then see if the effects were the same. However 60hps was when she didn’t have Valkyrie which people clearly overestimate it’s power.
Not in gold they aren’t. I see Ana’s that I outheal with Zen and decide I have to switch because they are so unreliable and I am sick of watching my team suffer because of it. They can barely get 2k. So if it was Ana stealing my healing numbers then it would be mostly around a 2k loss in heals, not 8-12. Besides, I can do more than many Moira’s at my level but that is attributed to the time I have spent playing Mercy. But the difference is, many of them don’t have the same game sense I have, because when I play Moira I can double the healing numbers of many Moira’s I come across and I save lives way more frequently.
I hope you realize that I said the game went into over time multiple times. The game was like past 6-6 on payload. So, you know it was a long game but I put in as much work as I always did and it was good fun. Everyone at the end of that game was happy and truly felt like it was a good and challenging game. I was commended for my Mercy because everyone felt I did a fabulous job and I saved many team fights just by understanding who to try to help and when, because prioritization was really important.
She has 80hp/s with a 50 over 3 second after heal, you just tap people twice and you can heal squishes to full. When played right, she can be as sustainable as Mercy. I literally played her like a more offensive Mercy and came out with bronze damage and 20k healing. We didn’t lose a single team fight and I was the only support. Do you know how good you have be performing on Mercy to get toward 20k? And in my first game as Moira I did that same thing and it was the damn well easiest healing that much has ever been.
Yeah, but you said healing shouldn’t out heal damage. I mean it has counters to prevent that, but by the logic that healing shouldn’t out heal or make a team fight unwinnable. In most situations below the top ranks, Zen will get away with using his ultimate and save people and generally that gets the ulting Genji killed because the enemy doesn’t die and then the team fight turns in the Zen’s teams favour that wouldn’t have normally been there.
Like, it’s an ult so that excuses it sure. But apparently performing well is not something that should be allowed to extend lives to turn a team fight in your teams favour.
I play other things but I usually always played support because I wanted to give my team (even in QP) the best chance of success I could give them. Generally, that meant playing Mercy but I can no longer say that anymore. I could play other supports, but they aren’t fun to me. I enjoyed a support that didn’t have to fight and sacrificed a good weapon and fighting most of the game to do what they could to save the team and I would love to have another support that I could play that does something like that or just something fresh that feels more defensive but also one that it isn’t going to take half the game it heal up a tank standing behind a wall as the enemy team rushes further in and we have to give up ground and no level of my prioritizing and beam juggling is good enough anymore to change the outcome of the fight. It’s demoralizing.
“Die on point” meant that your teammates shouldn’t have been afraid to fight on the point because rez was up. The people who defended and died could be rezzed as the rest of he team spawned or ran back to the point. That is what that meant. Not “please die so I can get a big rez.” Big rezzes were extremely risky and generally avoided unless you were desperate. And that’s where the misunderstanding came in.
Besides, it was waaaay easier to rez multiple people if they didn’t die on different planets. Being grouped was kind of necessary. Dying together on point only made sense.
I even did the same thing with Valk and the two instant rezzes. I wanted to give my team hope and say they could be bold and that I could pick them up if things got ugly.
Winston. During dive. Ironically was also the reason dive hero’s were meta for so long since she had the extra mobility to be in the fight and keep the fight going if the dive failed through her healing. As well as peel for them in lower elos.
wait what? Sorry I didn’t understand this.
when put up against Ana, and her incredibly broken 100% healing nade. That changed, which put Ana and mercy relatively close to each other. Then mercy got reworked and got chain beams. Those who actually take advantage of valk, to it’s fullest potential, were able to increase their healing average per game. This totally eclipsed Ana in high elo where mercy and her were similar.
Personally I agree, mercy’s hps shouldn’t have been touched. But unless they rework her again completely, there was nothing else that could be touched that wouldn’t leave her worse off. She needs mobility and sustain, it’s her only survivability. She needs her utility, it’s the reason she synergises with different team comps. The only other thing that could have been touched was her healing, which by all accounts, was pretty insane when she was healing more than the healer that could only heal.
well, this says otherwise.
though, i honestly don’t doubt this either. When you do get bad Ana players… they’re undeniably bad.
No i did. I still say an amount like that is actually ridiculous. Both for how long that game would have had to be to how much healing you managed to do during it.
This is true in low ranks. In high elo that changes. Moira’s more or less one of those hero’s you run on first point attacks. Because you get your resource back if you die. Otherwise building your resource can actually be hard denied.
Took the words out of my mouth.
No. You are extending peoples lives. In a game like overwatch where fractions of a second can make a huge difference, you giving somebody the ability to take another hit is huge.
Sounds like you just really like the idea of playing a pure healer. Honestly, I sympathize. The rework to Mercy completely changed her playstyle and honestly it sucks for people who enjoyed that. With any kind of luck now that mercy’s finally out of must pick status, they’ll look into ways to bring her back up in some form or another. I’m just wondering why you have such a hard time having fun with Moira, since she by all accounts is a pure healer with no utility. Is it having to do damage to build resource that throws you off?
Hey Kaz, do you mind if I ask what keeps bringing you back? According to your own reasoning, you’re arguing against an echo chamber with people all just parroting what Titanium says.
If that’s the case, why stay and argue when you’ve basically said that the odds are stacked against you like that?
I assume it’s because people keep responding to them. It’s only natural that someone would want to defend themselves or their opinions. And folks are only responding to Kaz because the same is true for each of them. So we have the constant back and forth, a vicious cycle.
Y’all shoulda gotten ice cream like I did.
I never said that at all though? I did say to step out of the echo chamber when people speak an opinion as absolute, but not everyone is like that.
Something like that too, yeah. I’ve opted out of a few discussions with select people though, as they were exactly that, a vicious cycle.
You’re giving off that kind of vibe though, the whole “me vs everyone else” mentality you’ve taken to this topic is pretty evident with how you mentioned dogpiling constantly.
I just want to know why you keep coming back when its clear both sides are just slamming their head against a brick wall?
I mentioned dogpiling as it was the result of other threads involving a few of the same people, not that it’s taken place in this thread. If it has well, something went terrible wrong then.
Thats the thing though, only like, 3? people have been like that. 2 of which i’ve muted because again, vicious cycle going nowhere. If people choose to continue to engage with me, I really don’t mind. Assuming the discussion is genuine
Actually, Zen and Lucio were dive first. Once they nerfed Lucio, they needed a replacement and she was the next best option they had because Ana was nerfed then as well.
So because I can juggle to targets that need the healing most at the time and I give them enough time to win their engagement and move on to the next target and juggle myself around to make sure my team stands their best chance when I only have a single target beam, that warrants a nerf to 50hps which wasn’t strong enough.
Okay, but Ana is now in a “good spot” again and people are calling for nerfs and Mercy is now in a bad spot, back to where her healing was before Ana was in the game and Zen and Lucio were still picked over Mercy way back when.
And they had less healing combined back then.
Now they have enough to do 46hps on one target together and 16 on the rest. And when Lucio can amp, it’s about 70 on one and 40ish on the rest.
I mean, 50hps only puts her 20 above Zen’s healing but puts her now 30hps below Moira’s.
Good, rework her again completely.
Moira can also deal damage. You can try and argue that it means nothing but it does. Because if she can get 20k healing and then also get a bunch of damage and elims, that means many of the targets she is dealing damage to are dying, which likely means she is helping her team secure those kills because that is more damage that would have been done, killing them faster rather than their potential escape and safety to be healed.
Moira also has mobility, which personally I would like to see lowered by one second just so she can use it more often to assist her team.
All the other supports were buffed when Mercy was nerfed again, after like over 10 other nerfs. If nerfing a character continuously doesn’t work the there are other factors in play. Such as the other supports are too weak or there is part of that characters kit that is not balanced.
Considering that Mass Rez Mercy had healthier pick rates and had better stats that implied she was just fine where she was, then that shows that Mercy was fairly balanced pre-rework and now after the rework she is in a state of unbalance.
Fair point, but I constantly make sure to see where I am at compared to my fellow healer at the end of the game and they are not good.
On top of that, people could heal that much before. I have had Zen’s heal that much in a game and I still hit like 20k. So like, even if an Ana is stealing my healing 10hps shouldn’t mean they are taking that much away from me.
It has nothing to do with someone stealing my healing.
Well you are the first to see this as a problem. The people who I play with thought it was fine and impressive considering it is only 9k above my regular numbers in regular time matches.
Except on 50hps that isn’t working anymore. They melt and it’s like you aren’t even giving them time at all.
I think it is a lot of things really.
I feel Moira is not balanced and I feel the same about Ana.
Moira needs more utility otherwise she will always be outshined. She also should heal through shields, it’s like playing Mercy but with slight more complexity because you sort of have to aim the heals and your mobility is less frequent (it could be lower by a second). I would love to see her orb healing and damage lowered to make room for like a firing speed increase on heal and slowing debuff on damage. It gives her the buff and debuffs that I long to see in this game and makes room for characters dedicated to such things more frequently but also would promote cleanses which AH VARIETY! Also, she would feel like a level up from Mercy at that point.
From a personal perspective though, I like being dedicated more to my healing role than my need to do damage to do healing. But yeah.
Also, Ana will always suffer to the other support if she has nothing to make her reliable. She already suffers from aim, the rest of her kit does nothing to reward good aim. Yeah, she heals 75?? and then gets the grenade to do more, but she doesn’t even combine with her own grenade well. The healing happens so fast that grenade just makes her burst better. I’d like to see an after-heal on her shots because then she could shoot three different people and the grenade could heal them up more, so she doesn’t have to rely on her other support to make he grenade look better (like Lucio combines with her grenade better than she does) and she generally can’t spread her focus around enough for a character who need that sort of time. An after heal would also allow shield weaving to get heals be more safer. IDK, I just feel Ana suffers by not being consistent enough for a character who already relies on aim compared to Moira who gets after heals on a way more reliable ability.
I just feel they will both suffer every time Mercy is “reliable” because
Moira > need utility like the other supports
Ana > literally is punished by her own kit when it comes to reliability
And then, I don’t really mesh with the personalities of these two characters. I play Mercy the most because I love her as a character, not for her abilities. Same reason I like Zen. When I play support, I like a character who is on the side of being peaceful and caring about their team because when I choose a support, that is what I do. I don’t like the evil scientist and I don’t like the mother who spends more time belittling her daughter’s choice to fight and making her feel bad about it when all she wants is her mother to be proud of her.
I’d like a new support with this soft hearted-ness. Or at least shows care for their team. I am a softy at heart when I play support.
Also, I dislike playing Lucio, solely because burst fire. Otherwise, I don’t actually mind Lucio. I like consistentcy/control over my shooting. Much like my healing XD
And like, I do have an FPS background. I have played a bunch, so I have nothing against shooting and stuff. But when I support, that is what I dedicate myself to.
Also, I know this is all from my opinion in most cases. But I can’t ignore what has effected me. I would give up rez in a heart beat for something new that makes her fun and feel impactful that doesn’t let me lose a decent healing beam. Rez feels sluggish anyway and so many people don’t even make use of their second chance.