Why blizzard is wrong about genji

General Discussion
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first off, im not arguing against stats or about genjis state, i just want to disprove the devs notion of “genji is fine because of pickrate and winrate yada yada” and why that is not a good metric when their own stats say otherwise to THEIR claims, genji’s pickrate is high, yes, but it is not because he is strong or viable, and to go in depth of what is strong and viable, it is something that will help a hero get to the TOP levels of play alot easier than other heroes, for example, if you get good at tracer, you will have a much easier time reaching GM/T500 than Reaper who is less reliable and less viable in the higher elos, you following me?

because blizzard does not share their stats and keeps a tight mouth on what they release and what they do, we dont know what genjis winrate and pickrate ACTUALLY is, however we could use a third party source which is unreliable but still the only thing we have that is close to any info we can gather.

according to overbuff
Genji had a whopping 11.63% pickrate in season 3 for Grandmaster meaning he was the second most picked dps in GM. checking the top 500 leaderboard, genji, who was the second most picked hero in GM, only appeared 26 times in the front row of heroes, this means, that the success rate of GM genji players getting into top 500 in season 3 was 3%… this is one of the worst if not THE WORST pickrate to placement ratio’s in the entire GAME, to compare and contrast to a similar character to genji whos in an alot of a better state than him, tracer.

Tracer in season 3 had a pickrate of 11.62% and her top 500 placements were 129, mind you, this was a peak poke comp season where supports were crazy and sigma widow ashe/cass all dominated the sniper pool map which was 90% of them at the time, meaning tracer was pretty bad into that meta but she still outplaced genji by a whopping 12% more, which leads to 15% overall success rate for tracer to get into top 500, this gets even worse as we look into heroes that were in the meta pool like widow and cassidy who just stomped on genjis success rate.

this goes without saying but we also have to compare heroes who havent been meta once in overwatch 2 and see their success rate.

Torb is an excellent example of a sleeper pick who has always been good but never meta or popular, he had a pickrate of 3.67% and 15 placements in top 500, this means that torbjorns success rate was 55%, but since the pickrate on him is really low its hard to judge whether this is survivorship bias or him being actually strong WHICH IS ANOTHER REASON of why balancing solely on stats is a horrible decision

[Moderator Edit: Removing direct references to Blizzard Team members in the post. Please review the Overwatch Posting Guidelines.]

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No genji buffs. Not allowed.

Genji deserves nerfs. Let’s start by removing the crutch of dash reset :blush:

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He’s not wrong. You just don’t agree.

Both statements can be true. One is just truer than the other.

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It has been so much fun watching genjis in meltdown mode because he’s no longer S tier pick, just good.

They should make some kinda study of this. “OP hero blindness” or something.

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They have shared their stats on Genji, he has a over 50% win rate across the board.

It is hard to argue that a highly picked hero with over a 50% win rate across the board is a bad hero.

There is a NUMBER of studies on exactly this, usually it is of the form of “from a position of historic privilege, equality looks like oppression”

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No, its not a matter of i agree or not, alec is just blatantly wrong

is that why he has the worst pickrate to placement ratio for top 500?

yes because when torb has a higher success rate than genji it definitely means that genji is strong and doing well.

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I would be fine if they buffed his ammo up to 30 but I don’t want to see his break points back giving him an easy combo. Speaking as a soldier “main” when genji is on you there’s very little you can do now. Back when he had his damage buff he was a terror.

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As has been shown “according to Overbuff” has the same value as saying “according to numbers I made up” because the Overbuff numbers are not a fair representation of the actual numbers.

Basically your post amounts to you not understanding the stats and then complaining that we should not balance based on numbers (then you try and use your own numbers and say those should matter). I guarantee though that if the numbers showed Genji was weak you would championing the idea of balancing around the numbers.

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Genji is fine in this current position. Your hero does not need to be meta for him to be viable. Play like most of us play the game: as a normal hero/ non meta pick.

You may not like it, but its the most reliable form of samples we have, and much more accurate as the “feelings” of people here. The only stats that are more correct than Overbuffs, are stats directly from Blizz. So it is the most realiable data we have and in that Genji is fine. Blizz also said that Genji is fine. People need to accept that he is FINE!

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Torb is playing into heroes he counters pretty much every game because of the pick rate of heroes like Genji.

You expect him to have a high win rate, and yes, it would be hard to argue that Torb is in a bad place, like the Genji players are trying to argue about Genji.

When the hero you counter is super highly played, it is natural for them to have a high win rate - there is nothing surprising about that.

Yep, and Blizz has already published their stats on Genji :slight_smile:

Yep.

Personally, I think the issue with Genji is, how you have to play him shifts highly as you go up ranks.

So people who have done well with him in low ranks, by jump spamming, find it doesn’t work any more, and they find the hero super hard. But really what it is that the style of play as shifted, and they have not shifted to move with it.

They hit a wall, where the hero which WAS easy is now hard, and they see that as unfair.

I would be pretty happy with a rework which made his progression smoother, which would remove most of the complaints.

When people call a hero a “gatekeeper” you know that they are super easy below where the skill to counter them is. It is kinda baked into the what a gatekeeping hero is.

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he’s wrong about everything because he balances with Winrate instead of Pickrate. that’s literally it.

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But Genji has both, so it is hard to argue that he is bad from the stats. In Genji’s case, either stat makes him look pretty good, and using both shows he is very good.

I can see why the Genji players are annoyed though, because they have to basically relearn the hero at some point, and that is unusual.

Most heroes have a pretty smooth learning curve.

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If the “most reliable” is shown to be just as reliable as taking a guess then it is a useless metric. Basically you can cite Overbuff winrate that they accurate within about ±4% which basically means that for all but 4 heroes you can tell nothing about them. Similar conclusions can be drawn about pickrate. You can draw no real conclusions from Overbuff that in any capacity beyond the very extreme cases which you did not need Overbuff to know.

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True, but Blizzard has weighted in on it, and given stats. So, we actually have source stats here.

Reasonably highly picked across the board, above 50% win rate across the board, good showing in T500.

Given this, it is crazy to argue that he is under powered.

Do a lot of players hit a wall with him? sure. But that is a different problem.

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Its not tho. Its data that is accurate. Not as accurate as blizz but not even close to the BS feelings of some random people on the internet.

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Calls Dash reset a crutch whilst having a long dm paired with mobility rocket boosters burst damage and loads of armour/hp
Ironic.

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And a huge critbox, smack bang in the middle of the player model that you have to try to not hit. And reduced mobility when shooting.

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Which is negated by dm, insane armour and health ratio and mobility lol.
You need help if you think genji is a crutch hero whilst saying dva is fine…

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i have listed that overbuff is not a reliable source so i dont know what point your trying to make, BECAUSE overwatch keeps a tight case on their actual numbers we HAVE TO use these sources to get some sort of number, regardless, genji is extremely weak and the top 500 placements show it.

No, because numbers showing whether a hero is strong or weak is never a good representation to nerf or buff a hero, why? because sojourn was a prime example of why, they REFUSED to nerf this hero for THREE seasons straight purely because of her low elo numbers, so your point is COMPLETELY debunked.

No, because torb hard counters tracer even more so than genji, however, tracer with a lower pickrate than genji still manages to consistently have a higher success rate than genji

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It doesn’t mean he isn’t a Genji counter, because he absolutely is. Between Genji, Tracer, Moira, you can be pretty sure no matter which rank you are in, you will end up with at least one flanker on the other team.

So you would expect Torb to do well.

I ALSO note you are not seeing Torb mains constantly complaining that Torb is weak.

So trying to compare Genji to Torb, and then trying to say “This shows Genji is weak” is a pretty strange argument to make.

Torb players are not saying their hero is weak. You EXPECT Torb to have a good win rate because of the mix of heroes played, and Genji is doing well based on the stats which Blizzard has given us directly.

Yes, Torb is ALSO doing well, but that doesn’t mean Genji is doing badly.

1 Like