So far I have only swapped Echo for Reaper if the enemy tank lineup was Hog/Winston/WB while their supports were bulky and hard to insta kill (Like Moira/Mercy - who both are so mobile that it’s hard for me to quickly finish them with Echo without compromising my positioning too much).
But otherwise I pretty much feel like she’s Great in any possible scenario. Diving Widows isn’t hard (might get harder above mid diamond - I wouldn’t know). If the enemy has hitscans I stick with my tanks and just help them gain space and don’t flank without great cover opportunities…
There is almost always a useful ult to copy in my exp…
I have lost games with Echo but I usually blamed my skill vs being countered, unless I’m missing something?
P.S. Sombra and Soldier are my worst enemies on Echo so far. But even in that scenario there’s something else to focus and destroy, she’s just feels super viable through and through.
I think with Echo being so new and the shiny toy everyone wants to try you need to be able to gauge when you’re getting value with her vs just doing random damage. Basically, it’s possible to go from one game where you absolutely do amazingly on Echo to another where, although you may not get directly countered, you just can’t make it work as well. Maybe it’s because some targets were harder to hit/kill or they just played in cover better, either way you just weren’t getting value.
For a different perspective. I can play Junkrat one match and get golds everywhere, potg, even a card at the end of the game, and have my team absolutely steamroll the opponent (idk why a card just wanted a fourth thing). But that confidence can lead to me having a problem in the next game where, although no one is exactly countering me, there may be another hero I’m comfortable on that would get better value (both individually and for my team), but because I’m not clearly struggling to me I don’t notice that I can and probably should swap to help my team more.
I guess it’s not necessarily an answer of “do they have hitscans?” or “do you have a Mercy?”. But what you really should do is keep your entire hero pool in mind. When you get the chance to take a second and examine what your opponent is running just ask yourself, “Am I struggling?” and even if the answer to that is no then ask, “Is there another hero I play that can either help my team play better together or counter what they are running specifically better?” Because even if they may not be countering you directly, they could also be forcing you to change your playstyle (like how you said if they have good hitscans) that lowers your value on Echo compared to a different option. Just because her ult has good targets on almost every team comp, doesn’t mean that it’s worth running at all times. But you know that last part.
When Junkrat is in question that really comes down to the map you’re fighting on, is there a choke to control or isn’t? He’s really map dependent.
But how do you know though? I’m telling you there’s so far only one scenario where I’m not quickly killing anything and that’s a comp of: Winston, Wb, Sombra, Soldier, Moira, Mercy (also this comp I listed wins a lot when I see it, might be new meta? Oh wait, I just swap to Reaper nvm X))
That’s it, lately it’s been Echo or go Reaper.
Yes and no. Yes Junkrat is vastly better on some maps, but on other maps? All it takes is my opponent running a more brawly comp or something that we need burst damage for to make Junkrat at least a decent pick.
My point is not that you should only swap if you are not killing anything quickly. The point I’m trying to make is more along the lines of, “just because you have one or two targets on the enemy team doesn’t mean that someone other than Echo isn’t a better option.” You can have a good target in the enemy’s support or tank line but if your team is struggling in dealing with one or both of their damage players, you’re better off switching to help there in order to help win.
Rephrased, I can dominate the enemy tankline as one character but if my team for whatever reason is struggling to beat a specific hero, I’m not going to win no
matter how hard I carry if for every 1v5 I win the rest of my team loses a 5v1.
Extreme example I know, but basically what I’m saying is it’s like any other hero. Of course swap if you’re getting hard countered/just are struggling, but also always keep in your mind, “can I provide even more value on someone else?” Just because you’re doing well doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t a better option. Honestly there’s no other way to really put it, you know when you’re obviously struggling and getting countered, that I don’t need to explain to you, but it’s the situations outside of that that you just kinda have to get a feel for depending on the specific matchups.
Okay good point, but who? I can’t think of a dps that’s that much better for getting a job done than Echo.
Genji/Tracer? Meh, Echo is just as good as them (unless I’m missing something)
Snipers? Meh, Contesting squishes with Echo if it doesn’t kill them makes them busy ie useless for a few minutes to their team - so again I see more value in Echo.
Mei? again, Meh, only for stalling purposes
Hitscan? I can take Pharah’s out with echo with little to no problem…
Shotguns/short-mid range - now that’s where I have trouble cuz taking down dive tanks is hard on echo where I go Reaper.
So in short I’m asking for scenarios where I truly need to swap echo for something Other than Reaper/Torb.
I’m telling you it feels like no if it aint a tank buster (given that the tanks aren’t immobile)
I also have seen them swap echo for Mei in OWL (Which I don’t fully understand and it feels like a player preference)
And my answer is to you then, that’s the reality right now then. If you think Echo is your best option for specific scenarios that your opponent throws at you, then great, keep doing it. But as changes happen that won’t be true.
I’d argue though that maybe also take your own team’s composition into account. If you don’t have a support player on your team that can reliably back you up and they can’t sacrifice a support slot to have a Mercy at your hip, then maybe someone else is a better option for playing with your team.
I was actually about to go to this. If your team is very brawly, then characters like Mei especially can have so much synergy with what your team is doing that it stops being about individual output but instead Mei also enables your team to have a greater output as a whole. Kinda like Sombra in a dive meta. Walling off an enemy or two for your team’s brawl comp to beat up is not that different from hacking someone for your dive teammates to jump on.
Don’t just think about that individual output but also about what heroes can you play that can open up opportunities for your team as a whole to get more value. I know utility isn’t exactly synonymous with the damage role, but much like a support swapping to Ana with the mindset of a nano combo or specific use of anti-nade, or a Zarya swap for bubble synergy with a Rein and a grav combo with a dps, swapping to Mei to create extra space for your team or isolate targets to be focused can be the difference, even if it means less individual output/value.
So far it’s not an issue, I play differently with/without Mercy but worst case you just glide to your supports and it’s fine - Echo mobility cuts the slack.
eh, like I said, imho Mei’s better for stalling vs any kind of other value compared to Echo (And point control wins the game in the end vs any kind of damage/kills so…). Control points I can see why some would go Mei vs Echo -I guess I learned that.
The big takeaway is, in an environment where teamplay and coordination is at its peak, Mei is almost always in the meta because her kit manipulates the battlefield more than any other damage pick. She’s functionally a third tank.
The only thing that comes to mind is Junkertown, but even there you’d be surprised how easy it is to flank + get cover.
Yes, even first point - echo is so mobile that by the time I’ve used low flight shift to get close to snipers I already have it off cd for when i engage.
Second junkertown part of the map is echo heaven
Third part only suck of they pushed payload over 70% of it.
It’s how Echo’s mobility works - it’s not strictly vertical. Echo is literally closer to Genji than Pharah - so the rules that apply to Pharah don’t apply to Echo but when Pharah dominates a map or map part Echo just dominates it better than Pharah.
The only difference between playing Pharah or Echo on (example) Lijang gardens is that Pharah is easier to play (but only with Mercy, without Mercy Echo takes the cake in terms of easenest of staying alive)
Although, not gonna lie, I find Paris a very diffuclt map to play as Echo
That’s part of why I honestly think Echo is not necessarily OP, but more just too versatile/good in too many situations. Yes the gut reaction when looking at her kit is to play like a better Pharah and play in the air as much as possible, but instead if that doesn’t work, you can stay alive while just playing with your frontline or flank in cover and in both cases just save the flight as an escape when you need it.
You can’t really counter echo completely unless you like focus her with a sombra or something. You can only really just counter a specific playstyle Echo can have or make it harder for her to kill you. The argument of “hitscans counter her” only really applies if she plays like Pharah lite.
At a certain sr it def becomes about team comp. But I’m not masters, highest I’ve been is diamond and my dps is mostly plat (which basically means I can just main Echo X))
Did you just steal that from my essays sir? Plagiarism is not nice.
True, I mean more that Sombra can functionally shut down Echo’s ability to get value and she’s really the only one that can do it no matter what playstyle Echo is playing.
I wouldn’t call Widow a hard counter to Echo in the slightest - just read the full discussion. Unless that Widow is Pine and can hs from 2 cm away - It’s totally my fault for dying to Widow
The community loves to call widow a counter to any squishy character mostly because she can one shot them. Even though by that logic Widow then counters more than half the cast just by existing.
