It didn’t affected the initial result, which was a heavy role imbalance.
Fair, maybe “nothing” was a bad hyperbole. It’s part of the decision, but I still stand it’s not the most important factor.
And I like to point Hanzo being played in OWL 2018 Stage 4 as proof of that. Because people simply learned that a damage boosted dragon was able to nullify Zen’s Transcendence, and then Dragon Ball was created. They learned that because Hanzo received a rework on live during Stage 3, so every team started training their players into Hanzo for stage 4 expecting his reworked version to show up, only for some unexpected bug happen and Stage 4 being played in the game version that still had old Hanzo. The teams had trained strats around Hanzo, and it was too late to train something else, which led to many teams still using Hanzo and destroying with him.
Ie, Hanzo was not an issue. The pro teams just never gave him a chance to prove his valor, and when they did, he wasn’t all that bad.
Perception, not balance.
Depends.
What are the specific picks on my team? Which map are we playing? Are we on attack or defense? After the first teamfight, what the enemy team was playing?
Just going “oh, be sure to pick 222” don’t answer those questions, and IMO, they are more important to decide if I should use my support in the pool or something else.
It still exists. The question just got more narrow. Instead of asking if you should stay on Mei instead of a tank, you are asking if you should stay on Mei instead of Junkrat.
What don’t help is when your teammates try to answer that question for you, demanding you to swap. That will not change with role queue. That may had changed if LFG worked or got fixed (ie, giving people incentives to not quit on first loss).
We don’t need to eat feces to guess that we’ll dislike it.
The biggest anti-2/2/2 arguments are that it prohibits flex players and makes it impossible to swap to help each other (like a team does). It also makes it impossible to pick a role based on a map.
I like protecting my team & payload - so I shield-tank, heal, or play 2-4 close-range DPS who can support the tank.
With 2/2/2, I will never tank again, because there’s no way to know in advance if we need a shield-tank or not. I’m not going to waste everyone’s time queueing as a “tank” when there’s such a high chance that we need a dive-tank.
With 2/2/2, I also can’t trade roles with my friend (where maybe my DPS-picks aren’t working; but his favorites would do great; so I happily swap to shields & cover him so he can make his move). I don’t love tanks, but I’d play them - but now I don’t even have the option to swap when someone wants me to shield.
Most of us have played plenty of 2/2/2 fights - and they’re not inherently better than anything else. I had a great 2/2/2 on Anubis where our DPS (dual-snipers) annihilated the enemy on the first point… second point, the enemy built a bunker the snipers couldn’t pop.
I waited until the last 40 seconds to get off Mercy… switched to a DPS (that I play often & felt could break them)… leapt in, and we took the point at the end.
This doesn’t mean I want to play DPS.
This doesn’t mean I want to learn the #Edgewatch roster.
It just means our very good DPS… were too similar for this one strat… so for 40 seconds, I broke the 2/2/2 to try a close-range stunt our hitscans were uncomfortable with. And then I went back to healing.
Switching heroes with completely different uses and playstyles.
TANKS
For starters, I’ll never queue as tank under 2/2/2 because I only tank to shield my team. I like shield-tanks (who provide stability), not dive-tanks (off chasing snipers or whatever).
If I don’t know what map, whether we attack/defend, and what our team is… why would I queue to tank when 5/7 tanks don’t offer that kind of defense? It’s a dead role to me now (despite that without 2/2/2, I often swap when my friends need a shield to set up).
Now, tanks are a guaranteed walking buffet for Reaper - and they can’t do anything to counter him (they have to hope the DPS do so) - unless maybe they switch to dive-tanks so they can roll/jump/fly away from combat as quickly as possible…
HEALERS
I like most of the healers - woo!
And yet (as above), I’ve had matches where we stalled after the first point - but I swap off heals to play one of my niche DPS for a few seconds - and we took the point. Our comp was a 2/2/2… so under forced 2/2/2, instead of swapping in the last 40 seconds to help our team with a new manuever… I’d just be healing until the clock ticks off. Woooo more losses.
PLUS
DPS have more than Tank/Healers combined. There are tank-buster DPS and healer-killer DPS, defensive/control DPS, hitscan DPS, flankers, whatever.
Most players learn to counter-play whatever harasses them most. It’s actually how we LEARN. Now Tanks/Healers are mostly going to be pincushions, praying our DPS save us all.
I love Mei - she used to screw me up constantly when I was healing or tanking. BUT she forced me to learn her counters & learn her kit & despite being a “DPS”, she’s one of my strongest defensive picks now. If I was role-locked to healer, I’d be hiding the entire match. When I play Mei, and people complain that she’s OP, I now smirk because it’s usually the cliche #Edgewatch fans who never swap to her counters.
People learn from being able to swap - either to counterplay something harassing us - or to let a more experienced “main” show us how to play that toon. 2/2/2 deletes ALL of that.
The reason I essentially one tricked so was because I needed to always play a character that benefitted the team the most. As much as I love Mercy, I would like to play other heroes. But Mercy just always fits with the FFA mentality the best out of any of the healers, so it remained that way.
In 2-2-2, I’ve already had to switch between the healers due to maps and comps, because the team aspect is pushed WAY more than in chaos pick what you want at any time comp.
And sure, that’s fine, stick to what you like, but then don’t complain when you can’t climb anymore because you’re not flexible. Comp is about the good for the team, and if you’re not up to that, you may as well go into QP, even if it also is 2-2-2. Which sucks.
That’s fine and dandy but the new system encourages you to flex more than before, just within your chosen role rather than across the board. Rather than encourage you to be able to play one or two heroes from each category, you should learn four or five decently in the same role, because the power of switching is WAY more significant in forced 2-2-2.
Frankly, the new system rewards both skill and flexibility, and I can’t say that I don’t like it. So you’re good on Sym and Torb, but this other guy is good at Sym and Torb and McCree. He’ll rise higher than you cause he can cover additional weak spots, even if he’s not as skilled as you on the first two heroes.
By all means though, play what you want and like. But don’t complain when you can’t keep claiming due to a limited hero pool.
I don’t go “I want to tank, let me queue as tank”.
I go “what do we need to defend our objective? what map? what DPS do we have and do you guys want a shield or do you intend to flank and snipe all over?”
So if we need a shield-tank to hold a spot or cover a payload, great - but if we need a dive-tank, I’ll be better healing them.
Wait, my friend is already a shield-tank? Then I’ll go heals, I enjoy most of them.
Wait, we already have 2 healers? Okay, I can go DPS - and I pick defense-oriented “offense” toons (anyone remember when there was that 4th category)? I don’t engage in stupid sniper-battles, I don’t flank and harass… if we’re on defense, even my DPS picks are focused on protecting our tank & objective.
Wrap your head around that.
An Orisa and Hammond are not interchangeable.
A Widow, a Tracer, a Mei, a Bastion are not interchangeable.
A Mercy, a Zen, a Lucio, an Ana are not interchangeable.
This isn’t a PVE game where you can balance half the teams (NPCs) to make this arbitrary “trinity” work.
That’s not a flex player, that’s a fill player. There’s a difference.
Flexing is you able to change mid-game to what is required on the fly. And in the new system, it means being able to play multiple different characters within the same role, preferably with the different styles.
You’re right, those characters aren’t interchangeable. But an actual Flex player won’t be hindered by that.
So I just did my Support placements, and they weren’t nearly as bad; not really any different from live, although maybe a little too much of it was healing 2 off-tanks. I prefer more of the roster though, which helps with flexibility; and for me the biggest issue in Tanking is getting healed, and 2 healers has never, ever, been a guarantee of that. It’s night and day what the difference can be, but at least as Support myself I can be assured healing is going out.
If, and it’s a big if, I continue to play in Season 18, it likely will be Support. Tanks don’t offer enough variety; they’re too tied to other heroes and maps. Support can be a lot more flexible. And of course Tanks still feel nerfed to hell following the litany of changes to try to ease Goats away.
And that’s okay. You can stick to the role that you like the best, or feel is the best for you. And if you decide you want to dps a little here and there and take a break from healing, you have the option to do that now.
Its two thing, most hate 2-2-2 so much outright they don’t educate themselves on the reasons or rationale for it, and second they don’t have any really coherent reason not to like it that isn’t just shot down pretty quick except for certain scenarios where they can’t switch and try to overcome their poor teammates. That’s about it, so we get strawman arguments constantly.
It used to be Tanking. Seems I won’t be playing any D.Va, Orisa, or Wrecking Ball anymore though.
As for DPS, most of my comp DPS time is a consequence of switching to counter; I don’t get to do that anymore. And no one will want my Widowmaker, Ashe or Sombra play. It’s a sure fire way to get myself reported.
You’re still capable of doing that, what you queue as doesn’t change that.
There’s plenty of supports that work on defense, tanks that work best on defense, dps that do the same. You switch within the role depending on what your team wants to run.
Now you focus your best on your role, you act like people can’t change a whole comp based on what point you’re own.
Things are different now, accept change and adapt, you know, like a FLEXIBLE person or find yourself a new game.
The problem is that some of us fill roles in a group that don’t line-up with tank/heal/dps.
I remember when Ana was new - and the Widowmaker/Hanzo fans were doing fantastic with her. Snipers had a reason to flex now (but me, a healer, I had middling interest in touching her).
I have friends who are great flankers/divers. So they make great Hammonds… or Tracers. They can survive as Lucio or Moira (high mobility) but melt as Mercy.
I play heavy defense. When everyone else is flanking or sniping, I almost always have Objective Time because I don’t want the payload to budge (my longest time in Comp was 14 min as Lucio… my highest, non-comp is like 29 min as Orisa/Mei). I play shield-tanks (not dive-tanks), healers (preferably hugging the tanks) and/or close-range DPS (who can keep flankers off our tanks).
My pool isn’t limited - it’s still half the roster - but my “role” on a team is trying to provide stability for us. Judging my ability to defend a point… because I don’t want to run off as Genji/Tracer/etc is obscene.
2/2/2 cuts my defensive picks into shreds and all I’ll be able to queue as is Healer (even when I know we need something else to keep our team alive). Do we have a Hog, Soldier, Mei & others who self-heal? Well tough luck, even if we need a 3rd tank or 3rd dps, we’re going to get a 2nd healer whether we need it or not. (and I say this as a HEALER)
I see the direct opposite. The new system ensures that there is only one other player picking from the same hero pool as you, so now if you enjoy a specific character, it’s easier than ever to one trick, as long as you have a single reserve hero.
People don’t pick roles. They pick heroes. They like playing X, Y and Z, and will develop their own strategies to make those heroes viable in as many situations as possible. One tricks just narrow that pool all the way down to only X.
That’s before we even touch the subject that we might only like one or two characters in a specific role. Sure, it might be “good for the game” to learn all those heroes you loathe, but at least for me, Overwatch is my leisure time. I don’t like playing Widow, and I will never ever touch her again on my own volition since I got her achievements (I only play her now when RNGesus demand on Mystery Heroes). I have zero desire to learn Widow, to git gud on Widow, or to any hero that play similarly to her (Hanzo, McCree, Ashe, etc).
So while previously I had 10 heroes I could swap at any moment in the match, now I only have decent swap options if I’m queueing as tank, and even there I don’t trust my Dva or Ball skills to be on par with the others.
When I’m on support, I’m OTP Moira (because Brigitte, my other hero, is being nerfed to the ground). When I’m on DPS, I’m locked to builders, and sometimes Pharah in certain maps (not all-around).
Since I get bored if I play the same hero over and over, I developed a very diverse hero pool. It just happens that they are split across all roles. And it saddens me that this was the way the game was supposed to be played, and now they are throwing me under the bus in favor of those that specialized in a single hero or role.
I will not, I ensure you. Especially because I stopped caring about climbing around… season 4, I think.
I stand that if you become a better player, your SR will follow you up, not the other way around. And that was true for me up to the moment they deleted my main and put her evil twin under her alias. At that moment I stopped trying to improve, and just as predicted, my SR became stable.
The moment the annoyances in the game surpass any excitement I get from playing the game, it’s the moment I quit. It already happened once, the second time is usually easier, and often final.
I bet they’ll update role que so that every team has a 1 Main Tank, 1 Off Tank, 1 Main Healer, 1 Off Healer, 1 Projectile DPS, and 1 Hitscan DPS.
Because balanced team comps always make for a better play experience! And because the more you limit our options the more creative it will make us. Just like in a sonnet!
Currently, no one picks what they’re playing before they queue. We look at the map, look at the line-up, look at whether we’re offense/defense, then figure out what we can offer our team.
Again, tanks as an example:
I have a friend who is a great flanker - he loves Tracer, Hammond, etc.
I have a friend who is great at defense - he makes Rein dance like a ballerina.
Not interchangeable.
If we need to defend, Player 2 goes Rein and Player 1 goes DPS.
If we need to attack, Player 1 goes dive-tank and Player 2 goes DPS.
And I’ll heal both ways, so I know their not interchangeable. I love player 2 to death - but if player 1 (the flanker) is forced to shield us, I know we’ll be dead half the time (because his role has always been “flanker”, not “tank” or “DPS”).
My point is that I play defense. My line-up are defensive-tanks, defensive-DPS or most heals. 2/2/2 just punishes players whose contribution to the team is based on what we do, as opposed to what we are
I hate snipers. But there are some amazing snipers. And despite the I heal most of the time, I 100% remember seeing some Widow & Hanzo mains who played amazing Anas - because they’re snipers. 2/2/2 pretends that a good Widow must now be a good Doomfist and Sombra and Junkrat (despite that there is zero overlap between all those).
You can’t change a comp if you’re role-locked. I constantly swap tank/heals/dps with friends.
In essence, 2/2/2 says “well, you’re best tank didn’t work… can you try playing a tank you’re worse at to see if that improves?”
The point is that 2/2/2 is garbage because it’s inorganic.
People start with a character they enjoy. THEN they learn characters with similar skill sets - OR they get countered, so they learn how to counter-the-counters, and organically expand.
So as a healer, maybe Tracer or Widow killed me too often, so I learned how to counter those. Or maybe we already had 2 healers, so I learned a tank (so I can shield the healers) or DPS (who could fight up-close and scare off attackers).
No one goes “I had so much fun as Orisa, let me abandon my shield & stability to go play Hammond”.
You did finally make one worthwhile point - there are other games to play. (But many of us have seen them revert awful ideas in Warcraft so… there’s still hope.)
