Every one of Reins abilities does more damage than Brigs.
Primary: 75 vs 35. Even if Brig were to get 2 swings off before he gets 1 that’s still 5 more damage on Rein’s side.
Charge is 300 dps bash is only 50 on live.
Fire strike is 100 flail is 70.
Rein averages 10k damage in a game and Brig averages around 7k.
Even Brigs entire 155 combo is 5 full dps higher than 2 swings from rein and her entire offensive kit is on CD.
Idk where I am sitting rein does more damage. Her sheild might break but splash of Junk and to a point Pharah can hurt her around her sheild and Junk and Hanzo can shred her sheild.
Winston, Orisa, Zarya at low charge. Keep in mind these are tanks, not supports. Deadly support heroes at close range- Maybe Ana with good aim, maybe zen with good aim, maybe brig with monitor turned on.
Also my quote was referring to op who kept comparing Brig to dps, as justification for high damage output. A support shouldn’t do that. Even an offtank should be limited a bit by range, damage, or mobility.
Rein is a tank, for the most part he should outdamage Brig. However, he does not have a stun combo. His stun is also a huge risk because he drops his shield, leaves his team, and rushes at someone with no way to stop and little control over movement, leaving him vulnerable. Brig does not drop her shield, has better control, is short, and she can attack immediately after stunning.
WInston is not very hard to hit unless he is a good winston that knows how to use barrier. Even so, his cannon is very short range and is fairly slow damage, and has to engage by using one of his abilities which leaves him no escape unless he survives long enough.
For a short time, while Brig has a shield she can hold almost infinitely
Ok but-
Mech guns are not on cd
Roadhog is not on cd
His cannon is not on cd
Zarya’s gun is not on cd
And yes most abilities need to be in their effective range to be effective
Hook takes skill, leaves hog open, has a smaller hitbox, and has longer cd
That was tough to read but I think you’re saying if they both land their combos you will prob die. Hog can’t always kill with one hook and shot, and again, Brig is a support. Hog cannot heal his team, that is not his job. This is like comparing widow to ana. Widow does more dmg but cannot heal because she is dps.
Unless that hero has been plaguing the game for many months despite 6 other nerfs
How about we wait to see if Brig really is useless on live before we complain it is too much. I believe she is still viable as a dive counter but is no longer an instant win hero.
I see a good side- A support can no longer insta kill dps and won’t be able to output massive damage from abilites that require 0 skill. Seriously though, Brig has been a super big problem since release. If you can’t accept that, then you must atleast agree she has been controversial the whole time. This might finally settle things down, but we won’t know until it hits live for a few weeks. They aren’t trying to make her worthless either. That is a stupid argument. Why would Blizz make a hero worthless. Why would they make the best defense against Dive useless.
Well dodging in this game really isn’t a thing. Baiting is a big part of the game though. I say if a good Tracer can bait out a stun and get a kill, that is fine. That is Overwatch. Outplay the enemy through smarts and skill. The Tracer-McCree relationship is so back and forth, like Pharah and Widow, either can win. It depends on the player. It is way harder to kill a Brig because even without the stun and skill, she has a shield to protect herself. McCree has to be good enough to not be baited, Brif just has to hold m2.
I don’t know what kind of players you’re playing against in gold but in diamond and above, this is hard. Also, you are lying. I checked your profile, and you averaged 18.12 deaths on Tracer in competitive last season. The average player dies about 14 times on Tracer. You are in the 5th percentile, meaning 95% of Tracers die less than you. It is def not easy for you
Yes and no. Yes it is well known. No she does not do it all the time. You have to hit a pinpoint projectile then waste time and abilities to maybe kill a squishy. It isn’t possible to consistently hit this until you get into higher ranks.
Ok? People make guides all the time what’s your point?
Yes but this combo leaves Ana with no abilities and no defense.
Brig still has her shield, her stun comes back quicker, and is still able to use her main healing ability, the repair pack. Brig is still pretty protected and can still heal large amounts after her combo.
Also let’s compare your Ana stats to your Brig stats while we are here.
On Ana, the combo that “she does all the time” gets you about 12 elims a game. 84% of players do better than that. On Brig, you average 13 elims on Brig. 95% of players do better than that. Keep in mind, you only have 2 hours on Brig while Ana, your fourth most played, has 63 hours played. But you still kill more people on Brig. Hmmmmmm
Why is this rant thread still going and my actual well thought out thread died instantl
Such is life
Ok then why don’t we compare snipers. Why can’t Ana headshot when Widow can. How come Widow can 1 shot people but Ana can’t. Ana needs a damage buff.
See the problem?
Brig doesn’t need an escape. She has a shield which no other stun hero has. She also has self healing that is not an ability, which no other stun hero has. She keeps her protection, her shield up when she stuns, which no other stun hero has. She also has knockback on her whipshot, which no other stun hero has.
She does have a follow up, her well known combo that insta killed tracers.
Yes this is true. And also what makes this game great. The dancing back and forth of Tracer and McCree. Trying to bait out the stun, trying to wait for the perfect chance to throw flashbang. This is what Overwatch should be. Not a super hard counter that makes someone like Tracer useless, but a way to skillfully beat another hero given you are good at the game. A bad Brig might miss a stun, but she still has a shield to protect her. McCree has nothing. You bait out bash, now you have to destroy her shield, and then you have to deal over 250 damage to Brig without getting close enough for her to hit you. That is really hard. McCree’s only defense is stun and skill.
I have seen this argument several times. Let’s talk about it then.
How do you counter Genji? Winston because it is auto aim and can’t be deflected so you kill him.
How about Pharah? You go hitscan to hit her easier and kill her.
What about Doomfist? Go Hog so you can tank his damage and hook and kill him at close range.
Now, not every counter works like this, but the point is this; Many other heroes are countered by getting killed, but nobody is freaking out about that. That is a big part of what countering is.
If you insist killing doesn’t count, how does Brig counter Tracer without the combo to kill her?
Like who? I’ve literally never heard this, though I see it is a problem and makes it extra hard for Tracers.
It is so you can’t instakill a Tracer using abilities and weapons that don’t take skill. Even so, Brig’s shield is a huge problem for Tracer as well. Brig can sit behind it and not take damage. For Tracer to get close enough to do real damage, Brig can stun.
True, Sombra is not the best Tracer counter. But Tracer is also a
As soon as the other team goes Brig
Nope. The can’t go through shields nerf had nothing to do with Brig’s combo. That nerf was so people would play Reinhardt again. This one is so people will play dps again.
A good point, but not quite right. Not being in the meta is not the same as underpowered. Maybe he could use a buff, but he can’t do anything to goats right now so of course he isn’t great.
Neither of these can instakill a Tracer and neither of these give Genji a shield to hold up the entire time and neither of these are stuns
Reinhardt’s charge leaves him vulnerable, his team vulnerable, is risky, easy to avoid, requires him to engage, and gives him little control. Brig keeps her shield up, protects her team, is not risky at all, hard to avoid at close range, does not require her to dive to move much, and gives her a combo after.
Hog’s hook just takes skill man
Yes but that was not my point. Calignous kept comparing Dps values and abilities to Brig’s so justify her, which is not fair at all. You can’t compare Ana to Widow. Also, Brig should not put out as much damage as an off-tank. Off tanks can’t heal their team but make up for it with damage. Brig does both, making her simply better.
We go AGANE. The frequency yes is important, but not the only factor. Brig’s combo is devastating and consistent. The difference between her and the off tanks damage, is mostly that the enemy comes to her. Hog has to actually use skill to hook someone who is generally a fair distance away. Zarya has to use her bubbles at the right time, get high charge, then she has to go in and attack before it goes back down. Dva has to engage to do any real damage. Meanwhile, Brig is more defensive. If she can prevent any hero from attacking her team up close, it gives a huge advantage. You don’t need her stun to be consistent, you need it when the enemy is forced to engage you. It is hard to explain, but because Brig’s stun is defensive, you need it less often because it depends on the enemy.
Brigitte wont be terrible. She just wont be able to delete Tracer (sadly, was probably my favorite thing about her b/c screw Tracer, Genji and Doomfist). She’ll still have her burst heal that comes with overhealing, her passive coupled with her amazing ult and the cc she brings via her Shield Bash and Whip Shot.
I don’t think she’ll be bad, she just wont be able to solo most enemies with ease. She’ll be a far better peeler and follow-up instead.
Rein has stuns in both Charge and Shatter. He has a shield.
It’s passive, but it’s still an ability. It still has a cooldown. So Roadhog fits that bill.
That’s the only thing she has that no other stun has.
Roadhog has knockback in Whole Hog; Doomfist has knockback in his stuns too.
And now that followup is being removed where she won’t be able to burst down Tracers whereas every other big stun could.
So let’s compare her to Hog too. Once you manage to bait out his Hook, you still need to burst down 600HP before he gets Hook back, and also stay out of the range of his Scrap Gun so he can’t get that money shot on you. There’s also a chance you may need to burst down more than 600HP if he uses TaB. Usually, it takes focus fire in order to efficiently take down a Roadhog because of his large health pool. Since he’s an off-tank, and Brigitte is part off-tank, shouldn’t that apply to her too?
It can’t go through deflect and it’s more soft-lock than auto-aim so it’s enough to zone Genji out. It limits his value and makes him go away. He can escape and still be countered.
Because of the threat of hitscan, Pharah has to move around the map differently, which limits her value since she no longer has free reign in the skies.
Or you can use Hook to pull him out of the middle of his combos and prevent him from fragging your support. Even if he survives and escapes, you still countered him.
With Tracer, the only thing that really counters her are one-shots or combos that register before she can Recall. The only way to keep her off your supports is by killing her. Otherwise, she can just Recall and be right at full while you most likely used your most valuable resource.
Winston’s gun doesn’t exactly take a whole lot of skill but that counters Genji. What’s wrong with Brig’s weapon?
And if the Tracer can bait out Shield Bash, she can get close all she wants until the bash comes off cooldown.
Except it’s not the combo that kept people from playing DPS. People played DPS when she first came out. We got double sniper. We got Dragonball. GOATS didn’t really become a widespread thing until the support patch went through.
It’s not the combo that made GOATS. It’s the sustain. Which was actually buffed.
He’s been out of meta since the end of S3. He hasn’t been good since. Even people who mained Soldier have said that yeah, you can do things with him, but you’d be able to do so much more with other DPS heroes. And again, sustain isn’t in a good place in the game right now. Once sustain has a place again, yeah he’ll be good, but until then, he won’t be too viable.
Okay, then how about Doomfist? His stun didn’t even get nerfed in PTR, but that can still frag Tracer and he doesn’t even have to charge it all the way.
Skill shouldn’t really matter. Mechanically, yeah it’s harder. But this is a game where we have mechanically lax heroes like Winston, Rein, Mercy, and Moira. They’ve made it clear that mechanical skill isn’t the end all, be all. A stun is a stun man.
Besides, if they just wanted it so that bash/flail/whip didn’t 100-0 Tracer, they didn’t need to gut 90% of the damage. 50% of the damage would have been fine.
Again, the skill argument is kinda null. If “skill” is the only argument you have as to why Hook is fine but Bash is not, that’s subjective. What’s hard for one person may be easy for another. There have been a few threads saying they’ve found Brig difficult because of cooldown management or because of how easy it can be to overextend. There have been people say that Mercy is difficult to play while others call her braindead easy.
What people say take more skill is subjective because each person has a different skillset.
And Hog can stay exactly where Brig stays - behind the Rein shield. They both can just stay behind the main tank and use their CC. Hog’s just brings the enemy to him while Brig’s punishes them for not respecting the tanks’ space. For both of them, the enemy comes to them.
For Zarya and D.Va, yeah sure. D.Va definitely needs to go out of her way to do her damage, but Zarya can still stay behind her Reinhardt. They’ll most likely be in brawling distance because that’s how Reinhardt works.
The CD isn’t the issue. I’m fine with Bash being at 7 seconds. It can even be 8 seconds, bringing it up to Hook’s CD and I’ll still be fine with that. It’s the damage that’s the issue. If they want to reduce the damage, fine. Go for it. But 90% of damage isn’t what I had in mind. Every other nerf has been fairly minor (the biggest nerf before now was the -100 Shield HP) so why do they suddenly bring out the heavy nerf now?
As I said, if they wanted to nerf the combo so it couldn’t solo Tracer or burst down 200HP heroes, bringing it down to 20 or 25 would have been enough. 25 would have brought the damage in line with McCree’s stun, and only be 5 damage lower than Hog’s stun, and she would still have lower followup than either of them while still being able to manipulate it to get some hefty followup. It would turn her 190 flail/bash/flail/whip combo into her 155 combo (although when you punch the numbers in, it becomes 165 on 25dmg; 160 on 20dmg). Whereas her kill combo for Tracer now would become 125 on 20dmg or 130 on 25 dmg which is still enough for her to survive and Recall.
I am done arguing in this thread, I have life things to do, and I stand by everything I say, mostly because you’re neglecting a good portion of Brig’s kit as a off-tank/off-support hero. Even Geoff Goodman himself puts her in the off-tank position
Another thing I want to point out, is how you’re bs-ing my stats. First of, pointing out Ana, vs Brig. You’re looking at almost 70 hours of gameplay, and 2 hours of gameplay. Hundreds of games on Ana vs like 5 on Brig. I don’t think my kills on Brig is a very representative sample of my killings abilities with her, since idk I don’t play her. Also, there’s one elim difference, such discrepancy…wow.
Also, I have never played Tracer in comp. EVER The tracer stats you’re bashing me on? Four months old
(Sorry for pulling this thread back from the dead Magy, I couldn’t let my name be slandered)