Wanna help make Torb a viable/non-troll pick?

General Discussion
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Overwatch is currently reworking Torb in the hopes of making him a more viable pick because they’ve acknowleged that the majority of players consider him a “troll” pick

If you do not currently consider Torbjorn a viable pick for your team, would you consider him a viable pick on most maps if all of the following changes were made? Notes with details follow the basic list below

  1. hitbox/critbox shrunk to be proportionate to his actual size

  2. reduce (or even eliminate?) scrap collection time (more time to attack)

  3. reduce (or even eliminate?) turret maintenance time (also more time to attack)

  4. Torb is at full strength as the match starts
    Turret drops at level 2
    Torb starts with an armor pack applied to him

  5. Make armor packs more often used.
    Get them mostly onto teammates
    possibly even allow them to be applied to Turret
    fewer lying unused on the ground.

  6. Incentive to move away from Turret rather than babysitting it
    perhaps a slow self-repair for Turret when Torb is x meters away

  7. Keep molten core exactly as it is

  8. ability to place/throw Turret far enough away to allow it to be placed 1 level up (nearby catwalks, ledges, etc)

all else with Torb would remain the same

Looking for Yes and NO votes here, mostly.

I am not asking if you’d pick Torb yourself — I am asking if you’d be more comfortable with Torb as a teammate if these changes were made
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Some details, if you want them:
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I think a lot of people dislike Torb because he spends a lot of time doing things that dont kill the enemy or hold a point. Running around collecting scrap to he can provide armor. Hammering away all the time just to provide the team with a fairly weak turret, even at level 2, and then hammering more to keep it alive. Throwing armor packs that mostly end up unused on the ground. So the changes I am suggesting are MOSTLY intended to keep Torb as a builder/engineer, but reduce or eliminate all the time he has to spend away from combat.

The hit and critbox thing isnt related to time wasted,but rather just to pure survivability, since many folks see Torb as he is as an easy kill.

Some have said armor packs should be eliminated, either because Brigitte has them now too or because most of them get wasted on the ground. Well, Brig’s packs arent quite the same as Torbs, tho, and a mechanic could be devised fairly easily to get more of them onto teammates and fewer on the ground - for example, each armor pack could be equipped with a small drone that carries them to the nearest ally without armor. Simple enough. This problem could also be lessened a bit if Torb could apply an armor pack to Turret - thats one fewer on the ground and one more helping the blue team :slight_smile: In any case, if more folks operated more often with Torb’s armor on them, I think Torb would be considered a more valuable ally

I think a lot of the negativity for Torb is because many Torb players stay with their turret rather than with their team. I agree that this is an issue. So - I’m saying incentive should be created for Torb to get x (configurable) or more meters away from his Turret. Maybe Turret self-repairs slowly. Or Turret’s shot speed (or power) increases slightly. I am NOT saying Torb should never go repair his turret, I am rather saying it’d be good for the team if there was reason for Torb to operate away from his Turret, which in turn means he’d be more likely to operate with his team. Self repair is my favorite option here because thats why Torb stays with the Turret now, for repair.

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I still think this would lead to an underpowered, instantly-deleted turret in high level play. Also, I maintain that MC is lame and the only reason people like it is because they’re used to it.

Also as long as everyone is doing it, might at well toss mine in:

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To be honest, Torb could be so much more than just a turret guy. Imagine having a scrapbook, where you can choose to build all types of stuff with collected scrap, to fit the needs of the team and his ult would be him summoning a giant mech from an orbital drop.

Sounds ridiculous, I know. But it’s way cooler (and probably more viable) than some guy that places down turrets.

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Here is my idea from another post I made:

Let me tell you a story. When I first got Overwatch, the very first hero I played in Quickplay was Torbjorn. In fact, my first season of comp was Season 2 and, at the time, I had no idea about what a META was or how to even play properly. I didn’t even know about 2-2-2 comps. I just played Torb in comp because I liked him and, along with Reaper, he was my best and one of my favorite heroes. I just went into comp and tried my best, placing low plat at the time. Most matches, I would receive messages asking me to switch or calling me a thrower, and since I had no clue about the META, I was always soooo confused as to why I got so much hate lol. I wasn’t till later that I started picking up on the game. Yet, I have always liked Torb and have had a soft spot for him. So on that topic, I have some ideas for his rework :slight_smile:

Scrap Gun:

  • Decrease Reload time by 10-20%

The reason for this is that I feel that Scrap Gun is powerful as it is. It has high burst damage and can be powerful in the right hands. It is Torb’s most skill-heavy aspect to his kit. The only problem is it’s long reload time, especially in molten core. So I believe this buff would feel great.

Turret:

  • Torb now throw’s out a level 1 turret with the same animation that he currently throws out armor. Turret then lands and will gradually upgrade to a level 2 turret over 5 seconds. It would only stop upgrading if it is destroyed and can still take damage.
  • No more cooldown
  • Now Costs 30 Scrap
  • Additionally, pressing down on this ability would let you alternate between his normal turret or a healing turret. Healing turret prioritizes low hp heroes first, healing 10hp/s at level 1, and 20hp/s at level 2. Turret upgrades the same way as his normal turret and costs 40 scrap.

This is to in order to make use of Torb’s unique resource in scrap while giving him more options and versatility. Furthermore, Torb no longer has to stand in a single spot to build up his turret.

Armor Pack:

  • Replace Armor Pack with Armor Station.
  • Torb throws the Armor Station out with the same animation that he currently throws out armor. Turret then lands and will gradually builds itself over 1 second.
  • Has 500hp
  • Armor Station has a 20 meter radius similar to Lucio’s but would be outlined orange/yellow.
  • Any teammate in the radius gains up to 50 armor at 10 armor/s, including Torb’s turrets, but teammates only have the armor while in the radius.
  • Costs 60 Scrap

With Brigitte’s ability basically being a better version of Armor Pack, it was time to change it out with something that would fit Torb better. I feel like this would allow Torb to make more of an impact while attacking or defending.

Hammer:

  • Still Repairs turrets along with his armor station. Now repairs 75 hp per swing.

Basically this is to allow Torb to do Torb things without having to spend tons of time repairing everything.

Passive:

  • Torb can have out two build-able objects at once. This could be 2 normal turrets, 2 healing turrets, 1 of each turret, an Armor Station & a turret, etc…

This is in an effort to give torb options while not allowing him to be too strong.

Molten Core:

  • Along with his normal health and fire rate buff, Molten Core Upgrades all buildable objects on the field of his.
  • Normal Turret would be the same
  • Healing Turret would have a boast in hp and healing per second
  • Armor Station would increase in hp and armor giving in the radius

I wanted to keep this ultimate feeling the same but allow for his new kit.

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Jakisthe:
Thank you for your response

You think that it is just as easy to “delete”

(my revisions) a level 2 turret that has an armor pack applied (effectively 375 hps) while Torb is attacking you rather than hammering it to upgrade it to a level 2

(current) a level 1 turret with 150 hp while Torb isnt attacking you because he is spending time upgrading it

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Your stance here doesnt make sense to me.

It is iconic to the character.

And “boring” is irrelevant to whether the character is viable or not

Also - what about the other fixes? The hitbox changes , the armor pack changes, etc?

Finally, if you still think Torb wouldnt be viable after all 8 changes listed above were applied, what would you add to power him up to a state of viability?

Cheddar:
thank you for your response

He already is.

That said, tho - how many more buttons to you think are available for alternative things to build on the XBox controller?

Turret is iconic to this character, and I’d prefer that changes to make him viable would not involve removing that which is iconic - including (but not limited to) Turret

If you want a giant mech builder in the game, I have no issue with that. I even like the idea.

But for me, that’d be a new hero

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Oh, I didn’t see that part - no, I suppose that’s a little harder of a kill. Still, underpowered at higher levels.

It being boring is important, and it’s only iconic because it’s been there from the start. Boring things should be replaced with more interesting things.

Everything else:

  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. Depends on how much it’s reduced
  4. I like the idea of needing to build a turret over time, even if it’s brief; that helps separate him from Sym
  5. Honestly I dislike the idea of him having an armor pack to begin with; it feels like it’s just sort of “there” and prevents him from having a more mechanically cohesive kit
  6. Moving away is good; self heal is…eh. I like the idea of there being some need to help it out.
  7. You and I have had this dance
  8. Yes

What about my ideas?

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Put your buff/rework ideas in your own thread, and I will be happy to discuss them

Keep in mind that I value that which is iconic to this character.

The problem with time taken for building and repairing and getting up to full speed at the start of the game is that this is one of the biggest reasons players dont want Torb on their team. Other characters are at full power at the start of the game, and they want characters who start at full power, so that (in part) makes them dislike the Torb pick

About the armor packs - do you disagree with my contention that Torb would be better liked and/or appreciated as a teammate (and would therefore be considered in general a more viable pick by players) if more armor packs ended up on characters and fewer armor packs ended up on the ground?

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And with that, you’ve just described the very character that Torb is based on.

The Engineer, who has a Building PDA that lets you select multiple different buildings that serve different purposes.

I love how Blizzard ignored so many of the lessons that TF2 has learned over it’s existence and just said “Nah, we know everything.”

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I did put them in my own thread; I look [genuinely] forward to your responses in that link :stuck_out_tongue:

But iconic is only the case because it’s been there before, which isn’t a very compelling reason for inclusion. It could be argued that Symm’s old teleporter was iconic, or gulp Mercy’s old res was. Things shouldn’t get to stay in just because they’ve been there a while, they should be considered if they change things up in interesting ways.

That is true. I guess it’s a split between “unique” vs “practical”. I maintain it would be good to have it take a bit of time, but maybe have a way to speed it up substantially.

For armor packs, sure, he’d be more appreciated. I bet Widowmaker would be appreciated if her shots could heal people too. Which, yes, isn’t the most fair comparison, since that was never intended to be the case for her, but point being: I think it is more important to have a kit whose abilities are themselves synergistic, since what could be helpful to others could be both arbitrary and endless.

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We disagree

In my opinion, Overwatch has a strong storyline and removing iconic bits and pieces isnt a good thing

Teleporter and rez are iconic.

and those characters still have a teleporter and a rez, as applicable

Its more than that, as I said above.

As long as Torb has to take time away from attacking, defending, etc…players will hold that against the character, as they do now

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I mean, is it in any of his lore? Why could nothing else take the place of it? Why should lore take precedence over an ability which potentially adds more nuance to how he plays? Those things were iconic, yes, but they they got replaced. Whether the gameplay changes that came out of those replacements, well, that’s another [dozen] topics, but point being, no one is discussing it in terms of lore or how iconic it is. They discuss it in terms of how it affects gameplay and the new strategies it engenders.

What is the more to it, besides that it’s been around since the start?

That is true, but I think the fact that he has to set up is something which far more falls under the category of iconic, in that it is genuinely something that, mechanically, sets him apart. It being a weakness doesn’t automatically mean it’s a hole that needs filling.

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Torb is perfect the way is he is now. The problem is that people do not use him correctly. When I play him, I place my turret in a hard spot where opponents can’t destroy easily but a place where it can do max damage. I build it up to the max and then go out to shoot and kill opponents while collecting scrap and planting armor in the common area (often the point) for my teammates to use. If you use him strictly as to stand there and hammer his turret, then you are using him wrong. Like any hero, he has maps he is best at and so on. Please leave him alone.

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Sadly, while I dont disagree with your points, player perception is what it is right now with Torb

He’s seen by the majority of players as a troll pick - an underpowered, non-contributor

So the point is, Blizzard is reworking him to make him a more viable pick

that said…Do you feel that the changes listed above would make your teammates (assume they dont know how well you play this character as is) agree that Torb is a viable pick on the team in moist situations?

I replied. I like much of your intent, but not how you are going about doing it

I think the “some damage over time” is a concept that could address one of your primary concerns, high level play - as there would be tactical implications for lets say Mercy, whose innate regen would be interrupted longer if burning damage even in small amounts kept being applied. I dont think it would affect low level play much.

Because I value the story, the background, the Lore

I am not the only one

I get that for you, it holds less value. I have no issue with that.

Any changes I will propose, tho, will try to maintain that which is iconic.

If such bits and pieces need a little less power, or a little more power, so be it.

Removal tho? No

No, they were altered, not replaced

Sym still has her mini turrets

Mercy still has her rez

I am discussing it. I am not no one.

There are other threads that concern themselves with keeping the hammer. There are other threads about keeping Molten Core. The folks starting and/or participating in those threads are not no one

The Blizzard employees who are assigned to and paid to build storyline are discussing it. They are not no one.

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I think making his turret self repair will garnish complaints from DPS players. What I would do are:

  1. Increase the amount given from scraps
  2. Increase scrap bank from 200 to 250/300
  3. Decrease the reload time of his weapons
    I think this would be fair and encourage players to choose him. Him being able to toss his turret would be kind of pointless since it’s easy to destroy it.
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I did make a post about my own ideas…

But apparently no one thinks multiple turrets will help him, despite how powerful 2 mines made junkrat.

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Kimchi:
I dont think I am expressing my question well, based on your answers

I AM NOT asking what would make more players pick him

I AM asking what would make the 5 other players on the team consider him a viable, non-troll pick for their team

(I put it caps purely for emphasis, no anger/shouting involved here, or at least, thats not what I intend)

I agree that two turrets would make him more powerful

however

two turrets disrupt (IMHO) the iconic single turret story of Torb. There is plenty of bits and pieces in the game where he refers to and treats Turret as almost a person, a singular individual - “Turret” as a proper name, almost

this is why I dont like the two turret idea

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Move him into support and increase his ability to create more armor since armor is like healing. I think that would help him been seen as a viable, non-troll pick.

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It is my understanding that in the new category set, to be in Support, a character has to heal.

Armor is “like healing” but it isnt healing

Am I wrong to assume at this point that you dont think that the 8 items above would allow Torb to be seen by other (non Torb) players as a viable pick on their team?

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Two turrets would be nerfed in a heartbeat. One is fine.

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Armor is healing when you’re on low health. When I play him, I plant my armor in the point area where my teammates can simply walk over it to gain health. Especially, when the enemy team is pushing.
Armor is healing. Brigette provides armor and she is in support category.