I don’t like tank on E much. It gives him the ability to escape to easily. You are supposed to predict where the enemy will be, she shouldn’t be able to reactively rocket jump away. Maybe if we gave him a charge up for higher damage on knockback because then he would have to predict when the enemy would attack him and then rocket to avoid it. In short it would give more tools to do what he already can do rather than just giving him the chance to escape easily. Also makes him a bit different from other rocket jumpers so that is definitely a plus too.
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Honestly rocket jumping wouldn’t be “Too much mobility” For Bastion… at all.
He has nothing else for mobility… at all.
He’s not a tracer, he’s not a Pharah… he’s a grounded pharah with the hitbox of a tank while he’s in that form.
I think it’d be pretty balanced without need to shank him over each inch he takes.
You arent wrong, what you are asking for is a PowerShift,
Its something ive been suggesting for a while
personally i find taht to salvage his kit in the best way possible he should be turned into a tank
This is a good point, and I’d say that if shields remain lower health that the ammo count could maybe be lowered further. The important part, though, is the maximum potential number of hitpoints that Bastion could shred before reloading. Let’s use Reinhardt as the gold standard of things that Bastion needs to be able to kill without reloading.
Rein currently has 1600 barrier health, 200 armor, and then 300 health for Bastion to get through. Bastion deals 15 damage per bullet to unarmored targets, and 10 damage per bullet to armored targets. That’s 107 bullets to pop the shield, 20 bullets to get through the armor, and another 20 bullets to get through the health. That’s a total of 147 bullets, assuming body shots and 100% accuracy.
Now add in just a tiny bit of healing and Bastion can empty his entire magazine, hit every shot, and still not kill the Reinhardt. So… 200 bullets is actually pretty reasonable to give Bastion a chance to finish off a healed Reinhardt in the open.
I think you have the right idea, even if it’s a shift in role as well. He’d be a tank designed to win shield wars with offense over defense, not a bad role to fill.
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Torb’s issue doesn’t really translate here.
And when it comes to actually making the damage numbers work, i only have two things to say about this.
- An ultimate is MEANT TO BE DEADLY.
- Bastion’s base damage should be tweaked, his ammo reduced drastically, and Tank turned into a side ability for an Overclocking to work.
It’s a very very delicately balanced theory, but no one single part would work without the other.
Remember that Bastion could only be in one of these modes at a time, and would need to choose which would fit the situation best, or take the time to transform… let’s not get caught up in a “Forum Bastion” witch hunt…
I’m all for Bastion becoming a DPS Tank as well, as in… the role.
I just want to see him actually punish poor play again. Predictable play.
oh god im having a dejavu
i remember posting this exact idea, and then someone with the coffin icon responding to it agreeing,
and then chibifox saying something below after
help
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With the 20k posts in the original second thread…
I have had such feelings as well.
You can say the same thing to a mirror ten thousand times, but it’s only scary when it says it back.
I never played 1.0 bastion but just from doing maths you can see that 200 and 300 ammo would make a huge difference for bastion.
134 bullets to break rein’s old shield, that leaves you with 66 bullets left. With perfect headshot accuracy that would equate to 1980 damage, which is alot. With no headshots that becomes 996. One can kill a tank and 1 dps/healer and leave another at super low hp (can cause a second kill if that second dps is tracer) the other can kill almost kill a team. Take your pick.
Of course realistically 50% headshot accuracy (50% headshot accuracy 50% bodyshot accuracy, basically aiming at their neck) is the best you can hope for dps but for tanks 70-100% accuracy is believable depending on the range. That still leaves a big difference between normal bastion and old bastion in terms of damage after shield break with 200 ammo though.
Was the original premise not exchanging less ammo for headshots and less spread as well? I think you would have to add some wiggle room to account for headshot potential, and even then I have to beg the question of why a hero should be able to melt the best shield in the game and the tank holding it while being healed all by himself in one magazine? This is where I draw the line in these conversations. This is not a healthy metric. This is why Bastion is not very well liked on the opposite end, it feels awful to play against this kind of power. And Blizz keeps it in check by neutering your Sentry mode. Help yourselves people, stop trying to put all your eggs on sentry mode. Try something else, get power somewhere else. Then maybe Bastion will actually see some healthy state and not be the most unattended hero in all of OW.
On this we can agree. Do I dare be lulled into thinking we found common ground?
Yes, ammo as low as 100 would probably be appropriate. Yes to headshots, yes to spread reduction. Justified for sure.
Shield is counterbalanced by ironclad removal, perfect.
Yes on tank config. About 120-130 damage shells would be perfect, these could be amped to the 205 one shot damage we have now with overclock. So we dont even lose tank as ult, it just becomes an optional ult.
Okay, we have a deal.
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Perfection.
You’ve taken the time to read the full proposal, for this i congratulate you.
It is something i put careful thought into… but i feel as though recently when i tried to bring it up, people would latch onto one single part and blow it out of proportions.
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First off it is an honour to have you reply to me. Your THE bastion of the fourms.
It isn’t really the mobility itself rather what it enables. Bastion won’t need to predict where people will go to anymore, he can just react when he sees them coming and rocket jump away. Him rocket jumping in principle is okay but him being able to use so quickly after a button press isn’t. He would need a charge up time that allows for greater damage and knockback.
Plus, kolor hates the idea and she is the voice of bastion mains and has a large group of followers that agree with her. We need to get her to be at least neutral about it in order for bastion mains to be united for the idea. And one of the reasons she hates it what I’ve intented to fix with my version of tank on E.
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In all honesty, if the Bastion is just running away like this, you’re already countering him harder than even killing him.
Kolor has some… interesting… opinions… I can’t say i agree with all of them, as she plays in a very high rank where teams have perfect coordination, meaning it’s easier to make mistakes and big ones at that.
(And have those mistakes mean very little in the long run, where in lower ranked matches players would have the chances to capitalize on such things.)
Aww, it’s an honor to be admired as such, i don’t view myself as any kind of important. <~<
You seem decent and relatively civil, so i welcome further negotiations in the future.
(Keep in mind, i do look up to Kolor for multiple life changing reasons, but i still do disagree with their playstyle and some of their opinions. :3)
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I think you fail to understand how incredibly vulnerable Bastion is while sitting still, and how stupid that makes the amount of risk involved in holding down left click against a Rein shield in any situation where the Bastion is not also shielded.
A personal barrier as proposed above would fix this issue.
Yeah but it takes away skill and that’s not what we need, not when everyone regards him as such an easy hero to play (not that he is). Bastion would need to premptively move away or react really fast without but with tank he can just react moderately fast and then leave. Giving him a charge up system not only allows us to up the damage to 150 but also allows to give bastion this mobility without taking away from a bastion players need to think and predict where the enemy will be.
You misunderstand, I don’t think we should follow kolor like mindless sheep, I think that kolor and her fan base make up a decent percentage of the bastion community and thus having their support or even neutrality will help this change become more accepted by the community. Look at that tank rework for bastion, it got alot of acclaim because kolorblind endorsed it. Changing kolor’s opinion will help this rework actually happen and so we should change the rework to fit with kolor’s desires.
Maybe this isn’t what you intented for it to sound like but it seems that in your second paragraph you implied kolor’s skill isn’t amazing. Don’t forget that kolor rose from plat to masters within a few days with old bastion. She is an incredibly skilled player, likely the best bastion out there (even though she once stated that she wasn’t).
I’m not a massive kolor fanboy who blindly follows every opinion she has. I know I mention her alot but that’s because she’s a good example of how to play bastion at a very high level.
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I hardly should be giving you gaming advice here considering the ridiculous difference in our ranks but you can find angles on the shield were you can’t be attacked, it’s actually very fun to burn the shield that way. Also hiding your hitbox can work if the enemy team is full high spread or large projectile heroes (because the the projectile might hit the map instead) but that is situational.
Can’t we just give bastion a reactive 0.25 second shield that would only be useful for CC? that way a good bastion can block the hook but the bad one won’t. Also make it point forward only so the roadhog can hook you from the side. Plus, it was sanctioned by kolor blind (only for the tank rework though) so that means kolor fans will be less averse to the idea.
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In a way i think you’re looking at this from a very enemy focused point of view, as rocket jumping is in of itself a skill.
And knowing when you can and cannot transform is an art form in of itself.
Oh no no, what i mean to convey is that rank does matter when considering performance based on team reliance, which is going to be drastically different in higher ranks, than in lower ranks… and we cannot balance around one single rank.
In a way yes, but only one example. It doesn’t change certain things such as Bastion still being the most heavily focused hero, even if he isn’t a threat at all at the time.
He’s big, he’s clunky, and he needs things like skill based mobility and more options in battle.
Having something like Tank on E as you put it, would mean that it would be less easy to simply run towards the Bastion and kill it, meaning you’d stand a chance against suicidal players who get rewarded for such behavior otherwise.