don’t blame others for you not being able to keep up.
as someone else said before, the numbers speak for themselves. sym has consistently underperformed compared to the heroes that can get uptime more frequently and more independently. she simply does worse.
your subjective view of a literal double standard in terms of how some heroes are drastically less capable of getting uptime for themselves compared to others being fine simply is unreasonable.
there’s more than 1 person in the team with individual thought. i.e. within any team (randomly chosen or not), there will be likely many different strats/comps/directions/etc. in which one’s better at let alone what they want to play. having heroes that have so restrictive preconditions is simply being synonymous to being bad or non-existent as their preconditions are hardly ever met. that’s not a “player issue”. that’s just unreasonable expectations.
e.g. why let supports have self defence and escape mechanisms and not have then absolutely needing to rely on everyone else for peels? the same reason as above. it’s simply an unreasonable to expect teammates to drop everything to help whenever the enemy goes for the support (esp given that dive exists), and it’s simply not fun for everyone.
this is the same logic when it comes to heroes getting uptime for their respective jobs.
This is the problem with her. So much of her value lies in one ability that most of the playerbase can’t get solid value out of. It’s a handicap for the rest of her kit.
I love it when people pretend their opinion is fact.
When analyzing how Sym has been objectively nerfed, did you consider nerfs/buffs in isolation or relative to the rest of the heroes and state of the game?
Would you kindly show me your work (which I assume is for objective)?
let’s run through the parameters for uptime present in each heroes for their jobs:
effective range:
sym’s effective range is approx 12m when including orbs (they’re that slow, you want working, see the Dodgeable Direct range of column for sym orbs in a post I wrote here) of which legit is low amongst the cast. if mccree is considered “midrange” with a consistent weapon fire at 15m, 12m for sym obvs is low.
burst:
her TTK on 200hp heroes is >2s for either weapon fire which already is on a very low side compared to others esp when comparing to other dps.
to put this in perspective, even sombra who deals 160dps has a TTK of 1.25s on 200hp targets
one may argue “but what about tp-orb-melee-turret combo” which arguably still is >2s TTK depending on at which point you start counding, but the cd costs + risks she has for that is more than how most other flankers engage+disengage.
she’s much more telegraphed with all her delays, her weapon fires aren’t as consistent, less burst capability in comparison on her weapon, literally being in their face for melee to be incorporated, much more restrictive escape with tp due to interact range and how it’s destructible, much more counterable, etc.
mobility: her mobility is the only one with 2s delay + her downtime on tp is one of the longest as shown pictorially below:
and those blocks of down time are now >=10s.
and no, infinite duration means nothing when in a fast paced game, you’re going to have to move where it is frequently if not repurpose it frequently, esp considering sym’s low effective range. if there was a “1 spot fits all”, we’d definitely all found out about it by now like how you all found out where all out shield gen and old tp spots were.
and distance that one can possibly travel per cast isn’t as important of a factor of determining mobility because mobility simply isn’t just how far one goes. How quickly one moves and how freely/dynamic they do it matters a lot (distance is moreso a byproduct of these 2). e.g. tracer is easily one of the most mobile heroes in the game yet her blinks (her main mobility tool) are 7.5m max each.
so yeah, her mobility is on the low side as well.
sustain:
225hp and a barrier on ult simply does not sustain her long enough for the >2s TTK she can dish out to get reasonable value nor would that compensate her getting into effective range often enough as shown by using zarya as a benchmark for comparison
(i.e. see how much sustain zarya needs to get in and out of 15m of the enemy and stay there long enough without much mobility in her kit and compare that with the case of sym).
one might argue she has shield health, but regen doesn’t apply when shes taking damage which she can’t really do anything about most of the time in battle to keep herself alive long enough to get things done.
so already we’re seeing sym appear on pretty much the low side of every lowest common denominator parameter to all heroes here. do we need to go further?
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Talking to you feels like I’m talking to a kid with how erratic you are and how difficult it is for you to stay on topic & civil… Just guessing, are you somewhere around 16-20 years old? It’s not worth my time responding to 10 paragraphs when 1. nothing is going to happen to Sym until OW2, 2. Most of what you say isn’t worth responding to because it’s actually disconnected from reality and 3. you have the awful habit of putting words in peoples mouths & going off on tangents that jump through 10 hoops which makes civil coherent discussion impossible. I have better things to do than argue about something that isn’t going to be changed until OW2. There’s literally no point. Heck, you wasted time typing several paragraphs to other users that don’t even answer their question…to the point that they barely responded to you and repeated their question… See the issue? Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work. I think you start going off paragraph by paragraph without even truly reading what people say to you.
Maybe, just maybe it would be worth responding if you were capable of staying on topic and having a civil discussion, but you’re not. You project things onto people and make them try to explain away your delusional views of what they’ve said. I’m good. Please learn how to have a civil discussion, it’ll make you somewhat bearable to speak with. You should take note how my end of the discussion remained coherent & civil… While yours quickly went down the rabbit hole. Don’t blame others for leaving what’s supposed to be an adult conversation because you’re not capable of having one.
God I am so tired of this kind of thinking. Why are players on Sym and Mei not allowed to have fun too? Basically let’s only let Tracer, Ball and Genji mains have fun and to heck with everyone else.
1st off the comparison provided before directly shows you how her balance is post-nerfs relative to others in the state of the game.
orbs pretty much unchanged, but as shown before, they’re trash numerically to start with
legit, having the cons of a sniper weapon in having sniper-tier low firerate which demands more precision per shot as there’s less shots to make in a period of time, yet it physically cannot be precise in most ranges as it’s simply so slow that how the enemy reacts is often more important than the sym’s aim in whether the orb lands
and heck their damage numbers aren’t even good either,
as sustain damage it’s trash as their dps of 120/(1s chargeup + 0.25s wind down) = 96dps < bodyshotting mercy pistol of 100dps let alone comparing with other projectile dps weapon fires.
as a burst weapon fire, well if it can’t reasonably be aimed in most ranges, what makes you think it can burst well?
preeeetty sure the nerfs on turret slow, slow stack “bug fix”, turret dps, wall hp and wall duration simply are net nerfs no matter how you look at it from any perspective whether relative to anyone or not. like there’s no way you can look at those straight number decreases and then look at changes of another hero and say that sym ended up better.
heck wall became more breakable to bap ult, bastion sentry and hog ult
rein walks out of turrets easier esp after he got speed buffed while holding shield
infinite tp nerf:
so when you take the above into account + the fact that current tp use cases are legit a subset of what it was used for before the infinite tp nerf, plus the objective fact that tp cast frequency and effective uptime all plummeted because of the cd mechanic it gave tp (see text art below on visualisation of how), clearly this is just worse at getting hero uptime no matter which hero you’re looking relatively from (unless you’re looking at this from the enemy perspective) all her tools to get uptime (tp and relying on team to escort her in and out of effective range) all got nerfed.
so yes, she is bad relative to the cast. she’s terrible at getting uptime relative to the rest of the cast, and even despite that she still ended up getting nerfed to being worse. even when taking into account what’s happening with balance for other heroes she is still worse than before. Yet poytheon in his “infinite wisdom” believes that is “fine” and “more viable than before”.
I’m no high level player….but every single high level play I’ve seen (both OWL and streams) uses extensive comms and such….It might not be OWL level “I know my teammates like back of hand” all the time….but it is plenty (especially compared to where I play - which is zero comms)…communicating a teleport (for ex) doesn’t take rocket science
Honestly I think people scapegoat the hell out of the team “reliant” aspect of some heroes
She’s effectively applicable to less situations than most of the cast.*
There are plenty of people including myself who wouldn’t say shes “bad”, that’s your terminology.
If only you were capable of reading we probably agree on more than you think, but you prove time and time again you’re incapable of having a civil discussion & not putting words in others mouth. Sad really. I think you just like to argue again, as I said earlier, instead of putting words in peoples mouths… How about you ask what they’re stance is… Because clearly you’re confused on what I think
I think Symmetra is similar to Doomfist in that she is strong where she is strong and very weak where she is very weak.
Although you didn’t mention her strengths, I assume it’s because of the stance you are taking on this.
My own personal opinion as a Doomfist main is that we should have more heroes that are niche as I like hero diversity.
I think her being bad comparing her against other heroes on versatility and uptime whereas her strength (much like Doom) is close range burst potential esp when the enemy rely on shields and (much like Doom) she is completely ineffective outside of this niche.
Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on personal opinion rather than fact and I think this is the only thing you and Poytheon disagree on.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. Talking to you feels like I’m talking to a kid with how erratic you are and how difficult it is for you to stay on topic & civil… Just guessing, are you somewhere around 16-20 years old? It’s not worth my time responding to 10 paragraphs when 1. nothing is going to happen to Sym until OW2, 2. Most of what you say isn’t worth responding to because it’s actually disconnected from reality and 3. you have the awful habit of putting words in peoples mouths & going off on tangents that jump through 10 hoops which makes civil coherent discussion impossible. I have better things to do than argue about something that isn’t going to be changed until OW2. There’s literally no point. Heck, you wasted time typing several paragraphs to other users that don’t even answer their question…to the point that they barely responded to you and repeated their question… See the issue? Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work. I think you start going off paragraph by paragraph without even truly reading what people say to you.
cd mechanic it gave tp (see text art below on visualisation of how), clearly this is just worse at getting hero uptime no matter which hero you’re looking relatively from (unless you’re looking at this from the enemy perspective) all her tools to get uptime (tp and relying on team to escort her in and out of effective range) all got nerfed.
we probably agree on more than you think, but you prove time and time again you’re incapable of having a civil discussion & not putting words in others mouth. Sad really. I think you just like to argue