Yeah cuz sym is very ez.
then youâre objectively delusional.
she objectively has been nerfed yet youâre arguing âsheâs more viable now than beforeâ.
she objectively has very poor tools to get uptime of which she objectively needs the team to fill the gap for her to get uptime, that or the enemies being bad, of which is already an objectively poorer standing compared to other heroes.
and Iâm pointing out how the vast majority of heroes are vastly more self sufficient than sym is being balance to
i.e. to spell it out for you, Iâm pointing out how the degree of self sufficiency that most other heroes are being balanced to (even the supports and âutility dpsâ) are a lot higher than sym.
right here 
lucio is a counter example as he has mobility to catch people in his aura range. moira was a counter example before the nerfs for similar reasons. bapâs a counter example as he has range to compensate his lower mobility to heal, dps, lamp, etc., and thereâs more counterexamples.
all of them have the niche of grouped up comps, but no way is that niche narrow/strict, no way are they so dependent for respective jobs uptime like sym is for hers. no way do they perform as bad as sym outside of dedicated grouped up comps, and are much more generic and applicable overall because they can get uptime for their respective jobs themselves more.
and this is just talking about the niche of grouped up comps. not even going into other niches yet.
the point remains, the vast majority of heroes are being balanced to a higher standard of self sufficiency, regardless of what their niche is e.g. even if they are designed to be grouped up.
nice work at strawmanning and going off on a tangent when then point being made is how widow, as an example, is capable of getting into her effective ranges and angles for uptime on her own.
thatâs disingenuous as theyâve never actually provided anything reasonable to her in her previous iterations
- her iterations before 3.0 literally didnât have any tools to get uptime herself. at best one could argue her old shield was half a solution.
- her iterations post 3.0 had the self sufficiency tools in design, but literally never had decent numbers and they even went backwards with the design direction with infinite tp nerf.
like no 
they havenât managed to do it before if theyâre blatantly self sabotaging themselves, that or theyâre just incompetent.
seriously, wtf are you on about? please elaborate.
infinite tp is objectively a nerf.
itâs a massive nerf on effective down time as easily demonstrated by the following text art diagram:
itâs a huge nerf on flexibility as not only does it take waaaay longer to move tp to another spot or re-purpose it, the amount of options per cast is lower because you need to be more binary about whether youâre going to use it again or not.
i.e. in the top timeline in the diagram above, tp is still technically in the âability down timeâ portion (except for the last 2s) which you can still have a choice to re-engage or whatever use case. thatâs not the case for current infiniite tp timeline as once itâs down (i.e. destroyed), youâre stuck where you are until you get tp back (or if the team decides to pocket you out of there).
and all this flexibility, cast frequency and lower effective downtime lost for what? so the team can more easily track where tp is because itâs not going anywhere, despite HUD indicators and how itâs literally a bright blue opaque oval on their screen. and the use cases are at best the very same ones prior to the nerf.
you wanna know how much tp uptime/duration was needed for this pro TP play:
https://gfycat.com/hopefulunsungamoeba-overwatch-reinhardt-symmetra-owwc
it was pretty much 10s of tp being up. you wanna know what else was 10s? old 3.0 tp duration.
and thatâs on the long side of team tp strats. pretty much all the tp strats OWL has used donât require tp being up for long. most of them are just for a quick rotation, and thatâs it.
It objectively was a nerf.
Please wake up from your delusions.
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Iâm talking design wise. I understand she was nerfed in the past. You can lose the insults bud
I understand this, but weâve already had Sym with a higher uptime when her TP wasnât infinite and she was even less viable then. Sheâs more likely to see a rework than significant straight buffs.
I donât disagree with you. What I disagree with is your terminology of ârequires a team pocketâ
Iâve never disagreed with this⌠I suggested it when I mentioned Brig/Sombra/Sym together. I can only repeat myself so many times⌠some heroes require more teamwork/coordination than others
Youâre projecting something that isnât there. What I said is a fact. There will always be heroes that require more team coordination/grouping than others to excel (unless of course as I mentioned before, you want heroes to be more generic)
Some heroes are more strict than others, thatâs the way it goes when heroes are unique. I donât think there will ever be a time where every hero is equally viable, itâs just not possible to have perfect balance with so many variables unless you make heroes more generic.
No disagreement on this fact. What we disagree on is that itâs a problem. I enjoy Sym as she is now. I didnât feel nearly as effective with her prior iterations
Youâre comparing apples and oranges. Sym is capable of getting into her effective range on her own too⌠use TP.
If nothing in the past has worked then going back to it wonât either. She needs major changes to be more self sufficient that donât break her with coordinated teams, aka a significantly different kit.
Saying itâs objectively a nerf ignores that it now has an infinite duration
The only delusional one is you, calling others delusional while not knowing the right words to use and being seemingly incapable of keeping your comments appropriate. It is not objectively a nerf when the duration was buffed among several other things
Itâs really interesting how divided the Sym community (myself included) are on Sym. Some want her to be more of a support, which her infinite TP is directed towards. Others want her to be a more self sufficient DPS, which means nerfing how much she enables her team.
9/10 balance problems come from how the game modes are designed.
the meta-win condition is always âoccupy to winâ, whether thats a key choke to win teamfight into cleanup then freecap or push payload, etc.
that means not much âspreadâ in these comps. ever since goats and then 222 weâve had these deathball comps of varying âspreadâ. even loosly spread, theyâre still very all-in with these many-to-one cd dumps that invest everything for a burst/pick and snowball/sustain to convert.
to me that means not map utilization. u need to reward taking flanks, winning side fights, changing duel breakpoints, etc. they need to reward temp/hold on more than 5% of the map at any one simultaneous time.
all these owl matches use like 5% of the map and the team is âcoordinatedâ which basically means clumped moba/cd scripts and fewer bamboozles or side duels.
sym ofc scales super well when the world is pocketing and blanketing her. try running her solo in open comps like 141, and youâll see how m2 is ur main tool, and only a fool sym who never left the owl scrim room will ever try and m1. itâs 100% clap the second u try and m1 laser, and most of ur tps are for solo/duo tempo control in off-main areas of the fight.
Curious, do you see this as an issue?
Whatâs the other option? Deathmatch? That 141 example you gave where you can only M2 sounds like a team I donât want to be a part of
Sounds like heaven. Iâm not playing a team game so me and my team are all playing off on our own by ourselves. I would play Call of Duty or Fortnite if I wanted that. Itâs interesting how divided people are on wanting OW to be more FPS-y where you can do your own thing or more MOBA-y with teamwork. Personally, I prefer teamwork. Iâd be playing another game if I didnât.
âIâve taken your opinion under consideration.â
There is a spectrum of coordinated, scripted cd utilization thatâs basically mapped out per meta per minmax. thatâs wut u see in owl and that is wut you will get letting them give u beta feedback for months as these guys fight to keep their tank jobs.
team elim / arenas is prob ur other end of the spectrum, since itâs basically just pick potential. TDM (like 4v4) is a little less extreme then elim, and u get a little more of this kind of scrapiness in OPEN comp when you donât stack the power crept tank/healer roles. when ur dealing with 3+ dps angles, many of which can 1shot or 2clap, geometry and map utilization goes upside down.
this is why iâve always said 141 and 132 are just harder/better/faster but less ttk strong then boring 222. u will have mercy mains crying when theyâre clapped by 2 snipers and unable to heal sloths who are so used to sitting around shields with sustained healing, unable to win their local micro.
the problem is ppl use âteamworkâ as a catch-all for being micro unaware.
u can have non-aim teamwork and non-aim solo agency via cds etc.
the problem again, is that âteamworkâ seems to think âgrouping upâ.
grouping up is what kills the creativity.
my hopes for ow2 is that itâs a lot more micro-centric. less of these team-reliant, all-in macro/econ. thatâs unfun for most ladder play and just not the kind of agency that holds up over time (over time itâs about duos not 5 stacks as ur bros will leave for other games).
The sweetspot is probably using stuff like 4v4 tdm as your ttk baseline, and extending that to 5v5 with some kind of composition balance and map objectives. I think about ow2 as being 5v5 tdm-ish, but with different/further respawns, a little bit more reset instead of constant frag cycling, but much more micro driven. And a lot of that micro should involve geometry and living off the land in degen group sizes (2 of u holding one area, 2 another, 1 in brawl zone etc.).
the goal being to make more of the gorgeous map utilized at any given time, and properly differentiate/express your ability with a hero, instead of performing a designated script for the sake of âteamworkâ.
As someone who has played in organized environments and had to play this mirror many times⌠itâs WAY more unfun to play that it is to watch.
We can agree to disagree. Iâve played enough 141 and 132 in my lifetime before role queue came out, I couldnât wait for it to end.
I think Overwatch is at its best when âteamworkâ is King with different team comps/playstyles all being viable depending on the map. (Dive/Rush/Bunker/Deathball/double shield etc.) I donât think playing Overwatch as if it were Counter Strike with comms spread out across the map is a good direction if thatâs what youâre suggesting (which is what it sounds like). Arcade modes are available if you donât like the objective modes that require more teamwork & synergy
Youâre right. She doesnât need buffs. Cause no matter how much she gets buffed, her core problems remain there.
Not only that, but straight buffing her could break her at the highest levels. What she needs, if anything, is a rework.
>âyes she got nerfed even through she wasnât even doing well before the nerfsâ
>âsheâs more viable now than beforeâ
youâre acting like her numbers on the kit wasnât bad before infinite tp which they clearly were bad.
she effectively does. unless theyâre going to number her weapon to be long enough range to not need much mobility to get in range, sheâd still need tp to facilitate her getting angles, getting into and out of her effective range. oh and guess what spiked massively from infinite tp nerf? the down time of tp â> less casts â> canât use it for uptime much esp post shield nerfs whereby teams move/reposition much more often now and will do so more in OW2 with their announced changes.
not fairly/reasonably if said hero basically needs the team to bend to their will to get uptime for most of the match time as their kits tools have been nerfed that hard.
most heroes are more generic as I was pointing out. most heroes donât need as much coordination as sym is currently balancing to and thatâs exactly why those other heroes are better off consistently for the past few years of the game.
I gave you plenty of examples demonstrating that. all of them are more generic and they all get uptime more independently.
ITâS STUCK ON MUCH LONGER DOWN TIME DESPITE ALREADY BEING LONG IN THE FIRST PLACE. MEANWHILE EVERYTHING ELSE OF HERS IS SHORT RANGE AND NEITHER DOES BURST COMPENSATE LOWER SUSTAIN (OR VICE VERSA).
do you like love to deliberately ignore the fact that I said to ALSO renumber orbs to actually be aimable in midranged alongside the changes to make tp better as base mobility.
do you also like deliberately ignoring the fact that I said the suggested changes were the bare minimum to put her on the right direction?
infinite duration means jack if where you need to be soon to shifts to somewhere outside of your static 2 spots.
reminder that shield nerfs + static tank nerfs happened â> teams move around more now â> where tp needs to be and what itâs for changes more frequently â> infinite duration in 1 static spot means nothing.
and this is only going to get worse in OW2 with 1 less tank, dps mobility crept, tanks mobility crept with being more brawly.
again, what are the uses for team tps rn? literally 1-way trips (or rarely, there and back trips) to skip chokes and/or claiming high ground. infinite duration means nothing for those.
I even gave you an example of a use that demanded longer uptime of tp and even that was just about as long as old 3.0 tp duration.
the very thing you said it enabled more it literally didnât help much except for people who couldnât track where tp was <insert head tap meme saying âdonât need to track tp if itâs stuck in 1 placeâ>.
meanwhile it lost effective uptime, it lost flexibility in more ways than one, and it lot cast frequency.
again, IT WAS A NERF.
arguably itâs not even better for support either for the same reasons put forward above. if itâs stuck in 1 place, itâs got lower effective uptime as it canât adapt to changing situations well (i.e. canât shift it to more optimal or relevant places fast enough nor be able to repurpose it fast enough to keep up with whatâs happening).
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Itâs not so much agree/disagree. Itâs what how those comps playout and how punishing the interactions are w.r.t. metrics like TTK, positional exposure, map utilization, spread, etc.
The numbers change dramatically when youâre not in some mistake-buffering 222 formation. There really is no opinion involved except for how you think it feels.
And based on supply/demand (queues, bribes, pop decline with 222), i would say most of the gaming audience that doesnât want full valorant or apex still wants/expects more pew pew agency than what we have now.
againâŚvague terms. teamwork can mean everyone clumps up, presses buttons the right way, and feels good after a long sustained brawl where your mercy never had to kill a 1hp tank because that wasnât her job. or where ur tank stops ppl who are slow from dying fast, until everyone combos ults. no1 complains, every1 happy. inclusivity even for the weekend casual.
Again teamwork != grouping up. For skill differentiation, âteamworkâ can mean every1 has excellent micro, commands their own zone/flank/lane, and acts with a ton of agency to win their part of the flanker duel, interaction, local breakpoints, etc. This is actually how mobas thrive, the synergy coming from just being a better collective of loose couplings. You even need more/better communication and group awareness, when ur not in the same 1 clump. So you have âteamworkâ by holding different parts of the map at once, not some choke or objective. And this serves to better express skill differences and convert SR.
tldr; There needs to be a way to reward symmetra mains who hold the side-map and offset their genji or widowâs duel breakpoints, provide escape tps or rotation augments for doomfist, and other tricks. And their needs to be Mercy mains that actually kill 1hp tanks vs. those that expect to leftclick for value.
Grouping up and expecting to get by with macro bruteforce is wrong. Throwing loose, complex side-map and off-lane micro under the bus for clumped value isnât using the full kit, it isnât creative, it is scriptlike, and I hope we donât go there because thatâs what killed OW1.
You misunderstood. I was referring to current Sym with Infinite TP to Sym in the past without it, not just number nerfs
Can you stop saying Iâm acting some sort of way? Iâm not. Youâre making stuff up. I never said her balance was perfect prior to infinite TP. If you are misunderstanding my stance then ask, donât put words in my mouth.
She doesnât necessarily need mobility to get in range. She either needs to use her TP, or for her tanks to create space for her to get in range. These are not extreme requirements. Every hero needs their tanks to create space, does Sym need to get closer than most other heroes? YesâŚ
Agree to disagree. You and I likely disagree on how balanced Sym/Brig/Sombra all are, because I think theyâre all good heroes that require coordination, which likely means you think theyâre all poorly balanced.
There might be some kind of language barrier going on because you seem to not be reading what Iâm saying.
I understand and agree that other heroes require less teamwork/coordination than Symmetra. You do not need to keep saying this. What you seem to want is for Sym to be more generic. I do not. I like her teamplay nature. I think the way sheâs being played in OWL is awesome, you seemingly do not.
If youâre going to start freaking out, Iâm out. Relax with the caps.
What youâre saying has no bearing on her ability to use TP to get in range if she needs to. She can. If youâve never done it before, you should try it.
I canât make a judgement call on your balance suggestions without trying them.
My point stands. It is not objectively a nerf if the duration was buffed to infinite up from 10 seconds. Thereâs no 2 ways about it
Matter of opinion.
Arguably means in some ways itâs better, otherwise there would be no arguing.
Overwatch is unique, thereâs really nothing to compare it to. Iâd rather it not become more like other games. Iâll keep the close knit groups if possible.
But, Overwatch is grouping up. Itâs not Overwatch if you donât benefit from grouping up somewhat closely with your team. Whether itâs dive, rush, deathball, bunker, double shield, goats, these team comps all require(d) you to group up somewhat closely. I canât imagine an Overwatch that doesnât require that. What youâre describing is not Overwatch, the only thing that comes close to what youâre describing is double sniper comps staying spread and controlling different areas, and Iâm pretty sure most of the community dislikes that kind of gameplay.
infinite tp nerfs.
you are literally going âwell we tried better tp and it didnât work so sym will need to basically be done from bottom up from scratch to be able to get more independent uptimeâ i.e. completely neglecting the fact that her numbers had always been bad as to being 1 of the reasons why she has been and still is doing so badly.
again, the availability of tp has plummeted with infinite tp nerfs.
so guess what that leaves? hard relying on tanks to get her there and stay there.
guess what that really entails when sheâs got delays everywhere, theoretical TTK being longer compared to other heroesâ tools and the fact that her effective range is lower + not having all that many sustain tools either? she needs to be hard pocketed.
heck even the ranged heroes have mobility to get angles more often (widowâs hook, asheâs coach gun, soldierâs sprint, etc.) and not be so draconian about tanks making space for them to get into position to get something meaningful done. this can be moreso said for flankers too.
like do you need a tank + healer to pocket you as widow, tracer, lucio, zen, bap, genji, etc. to get into effective range often enough and stay there long enough to get something meaningful done? NO. thatâs the vast difference here.
IT IS A DOUBLE STANDARD
One thatâs obviously creating a large consistent gap in balance as obviously one is getting much less uptime than the others and thus doing less and getting less value.
Can you stop deflecting from the point being made as to the fact that she canât most of the match time due to the cd mechanic being trashed so hard and sheâs got nothing else to get uptime with esp given how terribly numbered her weapon is.
yet youâre so quick to make a judgement call as to them not working
tell me whether the following is a buff or a nerf:
âtracer blink now only has 1 dash and cd increased to 10s but blink travels infinitely long until she collides with the environment.â
I guarantee you that any objective person and any tracer player will tell you that is a massive nerf and the infinite distance means nothing incomparison the the blink charge reduction and cd increase.
it really isnât.
itâs either neutral or worse for support. in no way can it be better. the use cases now are literally a subset of its former ones.
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Right, but thatâs the thing we need to change if weâre going to scale out individual agency (what most gamers want and like to feel). they play OW to win âas a teamâ but not to have all their agency and expression totally attenuated by others (typically the slowest in the group and the prolonged ttk design that fails to sieve fps/apm ability). This 222 âteamplayâ breeds heavy clunkers, healbots, and splash/spammers, who never worry about being surrounded or lurked because those (higher skill) playstyles, just donât provide as much direct, one-job, no-fault value.
Why bother with beautiful map designs and fancy layouts if always to clump up and never visit 95% of the map. You could have ur dense brawl or lose brawl in a simple mosh pit if thatâs the âteamplayâ ur after. The clumped, all-in, many-on-one aspects of OW really just rewards slower decision making (macro scripts) and buffers away sharp micro.
again i think the numbers would speak for themselves, and the only room for opinion is how all that makes gamers feel.
so many other games have âlanesâ that matter, and very punishing 1shot mechanics. Geometry and map coverage matters more in those cases. In OW, these lanes, rollouts, flanks, etcâŚjust donât matter as much once the 222 brawling happens. When all the value is so direct, so grouped up, so all-in, there just isnât much classical finesse and there just isnât as much creativity in how u will use the map, ur kit, and allocate value. Itâs a clumped mess.
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She needs straight up rework. Which sheâll probably get with OW2.
Her whole kit is extremely slow - charge this, cast thatâŚ
Thereâs no point in senselessy arguing with you when you make the conversation go so off track and act so erratically. Best of luck. Go off on tangents with someone else, I have better things to do.
We canât have Sym buffs because sheâs good in a dead gamemode in a dead competitive format?
Thereâs no 6v6 OWL after this weekend and thereâs no Assault (2cp) gamemode in OW2 at all.
Try harder.
4 Likes
We canât have Sym buffs because sheâs already good with coordinated teams, similar to Brig and Sombra