This Exp is discouraging and very problematic

General Discussion
25

I actually think I have figured out the purpose for all the changes. Simply put, Cassidy.

I start looking at how these changes interact with him.

Let’s start with Junkrat. What do the changes practically do. Massive nerf to any range capacity. This strengthens all range vs him. But additionally the increase in damage at close range wont really effect Cassidy. Even if Junkrat manages to close the distance he is not a threat because at that range he is wide open to flash. But what about the damage increase? Who does that effect? Primarily it is Rein and Winston. Coincidently Rein and Winston are arguably the best tanks to stop a Deadeye and reduce his damage in general. So, reduction of threat to Cassidy and increase threat to those that might limit him. That is a cowboy buff.

What about Torb? Well, similar to Junkrat we have to ask who is most negatively impacted? Arguably Rein and Winston. Again, those best able to limit the cowboy are negatively impacted. Funny that. And Torb himself is a minimal threat to Cassidy.

Moira seemed odd until something occurred to me. The slow down wont really help her get that many kills. Most of the time if someone is in a small room they get tore up by it anyway. Out in the open it might even help people get away from it. Sure, the control is probably a net small gain. But pretty unimpressive. Then the heal part comes into play. In the chaos of moving fights will it really have much impact? Probably not much, a few situations here or there. The biggest buff is when a team member is not moving or cannot move fast. Coincidently there is one hero with an ult that makes him move slowly and will probably face attacks. The situation arguably impacted the most will likely be healing Cassidy while a High Noon is charging.

And of course the Cassidy changes are just a straight buff to him.

So, at the end of the day there is one hero to benefits from every single experimental change. I honestly don’t think that is actually a coincidence. And the fact that it is following the name change where Blizzard likely wants to get a lot of new Cassidy PotGs and clips to showcase that name just gives a good motive for making changes designed to benefit him. With Cassidy already the strongest hero adding changes that all benefit him is only going to result in more dominance. I don’t think that is an accident.

And with the whole ‘we are monitoring feedback’ line it reiterates to me that it was intentional. They have said that every time they have made clearly broken changes and the community was warning them about it. Every time they went live regardless of overwhelming negative feedback. These are going to as well. And Cassidy will be overwhelmingly dominant until Blizzard has decided the new name has gotten enough attention.

It is net a pretty significant nerf. It is a 25% increase in damage when he is most vulnerable and a 35% nerf everywhere else. Inside the 15m range most of the heroes that will operate there will still be able to avoid/block his damage. Really the only heroes this really notably impacts are Rein and Winston. But the lose of power relative to so many other heroes will far outweigh the gain.

26

Motz you said all I’ve been wanting to say to Blizzard but far better. Can’t agree more. Tanks suck. Looks worse in Overwatch2. I cringe thinking about it.

Also with Junk there’s quite a few maps with tight chokes and close ranges. This is a straight up buff. Junk dominates tight places and chokes.

This may change though as they are planning on 2cp going away.

27

Not necessarily, they made a change and waited to see how it played out then adjusted just like they always do.

It seems like you do care since its on your OP. Just like I mentioned with Mercy, they did changes to McCree waited to see how it played out and now they think he needs help.

Whatever does or doesnt improve things for tanks is also a matter of opinion. Whatever they end up doing they will be criticized by people who dont agree with their decisions.

We dont know if that is the case, that is an assumption, unless they say otherwise, that remains unknown.

28

No I see a lot of passion and emotion which shows he cares. I think there are numerous good points made. It may seem A bit repetitive but this post has more value then the trash I see here all the time. Also from a respectful forum tank player.

29

They have said otherwise, in the AMA, in OW2’s marketing, they talked about tanks more than anything else if you look at it all.

So is everything else, so it’s pointless to talk about anything? Come on, be practical.

So help him, cool, like I said in OP and again in my further response, none of the changes were actually bad, that’s not the major point here, some of the changes may raise an eyebrow and that’s about it. In the end it wasn’t what this topic is about.

Nah Geoff Goodman actually said Mercy was balanced in interviews long before they were done with her changes. It is a thing that happens sometimes.

30

It really isn’t - it’s a buff in a very limited area, but a character who is ‘only good at chokes’ and nothing else will never be genuinely good in the game. Look at Symmetra; she struggles in any area of map where there’s no reliable place for her to put her turrets up, if it’s too open she almost fails to exist as a DPS. Junkrat’s losing all his damage whenever he shoots anyone more than 15m away from him - and it’s worse than that even because his mines travel in an arc, and it’s based on how far his mine’s travel.

A tracer can be 13 m from you and if you bounce a mine off a wall to hit her, it won’t kill her because it technically traveled more than 15 m by bouncing off the wall and to her, so even though she’s ‘within’ your ‘optimal damage range’ the mere fact that his gun lobs things in an arc and is meant to bounce them ADDS DISTANCE TO EVERY SHOT HE FIRES, it’s absurd to think that this isn’t a significant nerf for Junkrat due to how this one aspect of it is being calculated.

He’s getting hardcore nerfed.

31

But did they say that the changes in this experimental are aimed at doing something for tanks?

What is practical for you may not be for someone else. You raise a lot of points in your OP but those are only opinions not facts. We can talk and discuss many things but in the end it is the devs who will decide what they think is best. You are for example, criticizing the for the proposed changes which is valid but its your take on it nothing more.

Ok thats fine, still, since you mentioned it in your OP it is valid for me to argue about it, if it aint important to you then ignore it.

I am not aware of those comments, would you care to point me towards them?

32

It’s a buff if your looking at it from a tank perspective, which I am. I play mainly support but I’ve been a flex tank player for a long time. I find myself more and more playing tanks than support now and days. Now I have to rely on my dps harder to kill the problem junk.

Because getting close to him is even more certain death.

33

It’s not in this experimental, nor it was in the past 4 or 8 or 10 or 12 experimentals, that’s the point.

Unless you found an objective way to measure game design, opinions are all we have. Saying “devs disagree and that’s it” is a very poor argument from authority.

There’s a broader point I’m failing to make here. Notice I barely talked about the actual changes themselves, trying to remain focused on the whole picture instead of just what this fine tuning means to Cassidy’s status itself.

Cassidy buffs? They’re odd, particularly because Cass is a tad problematic right now thanks to his Fan The Hammer and Flashbang, Cowboy here being a part of both excessive CC and tank busting cooldowns major issues, both remain unaddressed. FTH still retains its GOATS-era buff, so does Deadeye, and now Cassidy gets more buffs atop of all that - and BOTH of them would be fine even with 225 HP if FTH wasn’t such a huge spike of burst damage.

I reckon Exp was actually not that bad, relatively speaking anyway. There’s a whole context here of saying X is being addressed followed by inaction.

I can’t actually. Probably lost in the old forums. It would be nothing but argument from authority in the end.

34

None of those have been buffed in this experimental card. So I have no idea what you’re talking about here.

Radical changes don’t come to existing games four years old or older. WarCraft 3 was Castercraft within the first year and didn’t any balance changes to improve that situation until an expansion. Blizzard is not going to change or budget fixes into a 5 year old game who’s balance has already been long established.

You’re also operating under a lot of misperception. There are no tank-busters, never were designed to be, have never been implemented. Most of the crowd-control in the game, comes from Tanks, not Supports, not Damage.

They did tell you, in OW2. OW1 is not OW2. You need understand this, you’re clearly not. And now you’re bordering on hyperbole.

Math it out; 12.5 damage per shot is reduced to 7.5 x 10. So instead of a maximum of 125 damage a shot, it 75 a shot or 40% decrease in damage. That’s fairly significant. With 6 shots in the clip, that’s 450 damage, down from 750. That’s not enough to pierce any barrier and just barely cut through most defensive cooldowns.

The new change for Torbjorn doesn’t change the damage output, but does reduce the ammo cost, so instead of 6 shots, it’s 9. You’re also not improving the rate of fire, but this does allow Torbjorn to continue firing in Overload state without having to reload while under it’s duration (allowing for 8 shots). That’s about 150 to 250 more damage under Overload; still not enough to clear through many barriers. It does give him better sustain, which is where he is angled toward and does improve his consistency.

No improvements to damage, no increases in crowd control, still the same health and weaknesses.

Most of this is false. Reinhardt cuts the half the health of most of the roster with Firestrike; Roadhog’s range on his hook is 20 meters, and his RMB fire is 25 meters at 150 damage; Sigma has a covering range of 20 meters with a width of 6 meters. Orisa has no falloff and projectiles travel at 120 meters per second. Both D.va and Winston engage at close range and Winston will win fights in 4 or less seconds (and no individual hero can cut through is barrier in that time span). Wrecking Ball is the fastest character in the game, and typically immune to critical hits while running or approaching and Zarya and Orisa (again) are immune to most - if not all - CC effects.

False.

Neither is going to be effective at breaking barriers. 150x5 is 750 if all hits connect; at 15 meters or less this will take 3 seconds; that about enough time to kill Junkrat for most Tanks.

Against anyone else; this is in Junkrat’s favor. He doesn’t really need any defensive cooldowns (and concussion mine also works as a spacing tool) when he has the fastest possible kill rate at that range.

Quoted for emphasis. This is Moira.

Irrelevant.

No they didn’t.

Torbjorn won’t cut through their barriers before Overload is over, let alone harm them to critical health states. He’d be more effective on Sigma and Zarya, however.

It is a powershift not unlike Genji’s; with a more substantial increase in risk associated with it.

Folks, you have no idea what’s going on with OW2 and you can’t base OW1’s balance on it. Overwatch 2 is Overwatch 2, not Overwatch 1 or Overwatch 1.5. There are likely radical shifts and changes within the game that you are not aware of, nor can you make any comments about. To even consider that the idea that balance here in OW1 is somehow reflective on Overwatch 2 is incredibly disingenuous both to the development team and to Overwatch 1.

You have no clue what build they’re on; you have no idea how many heroes are being added into the game. You have no clue what new abilities, mechanics, or otherwise are in the game that being considered right now. You have no evidence to argue any point, and so any argument for Overwatch 2, positive or negative is without merit and hyperbolic.

35

You need to take a step back and consider how Junk is meant to get into that range on most maps against good opponents. Not as a 1 off flank after playing with the team. As in that being his only way of applying any kind of pressure so needing to do that permanently. The answer is that he cant and that there are other heroes who are better at it. It’s a bad change that makes him more niche.

36

You said the following:

So I thought you were refering to the fact that this patch was aimed at OW2 without concern for OW1. That is why I said that we don’t know if that is the case.

I dont know what your point is here. You told me to be practical but that is also a matter of opinion as I stated before. As for saying that “devs disagree” that is literally the end of the discussion. If the devs think that doing something is better for the game they will do that. They can change their minds later, or react to whatever results from those changes but as far as the things that you say, not everyone will agree with it and in the end the only thing that matters is what the devs think.

Sure, but you say things like this:

That is not necessarily true in the context of OW1. They seem to be leaning towards removing FB in OW2 but that is because OW2 is a different game.

Also this is a bit ironic IMO:

I think you are talking about tank busting, but literally one of the main reasons they are making OW2 5v5 is because tanks are too powerful. If tank busting was such an issue then there would be no reason to remove one tank from the game.

37

I don’t think it is the case and I didn’t say it was. I’m saying Exp was without concern for long standing issues OW1 has regardless if it was aimed at OW2 or 1. And so was every other Exp for a long time.

I’m telling you to be practical because if you think “devs say so” is the end of the discussion, then there’s no point discussing, the devs, in your eyes, are incapable of error and we, everyone else, cannot makes valid points, so you see how impractical that is? It is a text-book logical fallacy (argumentum ab auctoritate) and puts an end to any conversation whatsoever.

Devs themselves have talked about excessive CC, mainly Jeff at BlizzCon 2018. It’s not news.

Then there’s all the talk with OW2 and that just makes my point for me. The devs themselves are removing those things for OW2, they agree there’s too much of it, but at the same time here we are adding more of it in OW1.

Tanks can be the most powerful thing since Thanos completed the gauntlet, doesn’t justify tank-busting and excessive CC. Supports are arguably even stronger, at least just as strong, yet there’s no such thing as support-busting, it’s ludicrous to have something specifically designed to fork the entire category up royally - in a category locked game. That’s not a counter, that’s role-counter, and a lot of those are still remains of the GOATS-era where sustain was so absurdly high those numbers could be justified, now they just can’t.

If you think that’s a good design decision because “devs say so”, then sorry, devs are people too and they have a long list of mistakes.

1 Like
38

Cut through alone? No. But add a lot more damage. Also Overload dramatically improves his fight with Winston and ammo reduction even more. Do I think he is meant to just be a tank buster? No. But this is a straight up buff against them.

Not really. Sigma still has his suck and he attacks from more range. Zarya’s bubble mechanic and damage shift the balance. It is more akin to how Reaper works. Reaper is a lot more dangerous to Winston and even Rein than Sigma/Zarya.

Yes, his changes will effect the other tanks. But I still argue to a lesser extent than Rein Winston.

What change did Genji get that was a significant nerf vs the vast majority of the roster and a buff to a select few? Junkrat is taking a massive nerf vs anyone that operates outside the 15m range, which is a lot. And most of the ones that operate close have ways of negating or just avoiding the damage and wont really see a change. Sure it will 1 shot Tracer, but any halfway competent Tracer wont get hit but rarely (and many of what does will be shots that do reduced damage because they traveled - bounced - the extra distance). There is basically zero change in vs Genji/Sombra. Mei/Reaper will all die with 1 less nade, but they also gain because they can get closer to their operational area taking less damage from him as they approach, net effect is going to be small but could be either way. Hog will still hook kill faster than Junk can kill him. Sigma will feel some, but between his suck and extra range it will be minimal. Zarya bubble will still absorb the same number of shots. Defense matrix will still negate them. The reality is the only ones you will really feel the damage increase on is vs Rein and Winston. So, the change is positive for Junkrat vs a couple tank, neutral for a few heroes and negative for most of the roster.

Not entirely true. We do have some information and can make some informed speculation. One just has to keep in mind that it is speculation.

This.
And important to also consider he is currently underperforming compared to other heroes. They are making an already underperforming hero worse. This is not going to improve things.

Yes they will, but that does not end the discussion. While I don’t believe they monitor feedback as much as they claim, or as much as they should, they do monitor it. The discussion can lead to:

Fan and Flash are not the only things making him problematic right now, but they are certainly helping.

I am fairly confident it is because of the queue. Tank queue is a problem. Solo tanking means less are needed, thus helping queue times. It also makes it easier to shift away from team protection and let tanks be more brawler dps. In theory that will attract more to the role, though only time will tell.

They also have developed an over obsession on flashy plays and big PotGs (which has negatively impacted balance). Protective tanks limit those.

If they wanted to break or weaken tanks, that is easy to do. It would not take removing one to do it.

39

They simply don’t play the same game we play. Sometimes literally, with 1/3/2 lock internally, and sometimes just in their understanding, like with tanks. They never used the “main tank” and “off tank” labels preferring things like “anchor tank”, but it shows why they so drastically misunderstood the roles of later released tanks. A main engages, an off tank does a bunch of damage and protects flanks. But in their eyes, Wrecking Ball doesn’t have much for a team to set up around, despite all the initiation ability and not peel, so he’s gonna be fit in that slot next to the Orisa or Monkey. Sigma has a rock that functions an awful lot like hook and a DM that seem really good for controlling people on off angles and a lot of damage while folding like paper the moment you rush him. But he has a shield he can set up for people to stand behind, so clearly going to replace Rein instead of the D.va. The devs design for their game and then find out it doesn’t work in the community’s game so they have to slowly figure out why.
Maybe 5v5 will help them force their understanding on us. Maybe it’ll be a similar thing as with the initial launch and we played the same game for a few months and then did weird things like play 2 tanks consistently, or create Beyblade, or didn’t actually use rez. Only time will tell.

40

He can place himself on the high ground, Traps and Mines are flexible enough for non-confrontational kills and setups. He doesn’t really have to approach from the front or directly, but can tackle flanking angles. He’s one of the few defensive-minded heroes who could do this.

I get the concerns about the risk and the travel distances; but these changes don’t really harm his approach, but encourage in into more riskier situations. That benefit may not be realized (especially considering how much risk the flankers have to take), but that reward is still there and magnified on impact.

Overload would allow him to cut through the barrier (in conjunction with turret), and the armor helps his sustain, but it doesn’t really change the situation with Winston. You’re not really trying to utilize RMB on him, but instead nail critical shots with LMB. Kinda moot, but better sustain on dealing with Winston.

Then again, Roadhog and Zarya and Sigma still seem more favorable or at least even ground targets.

Turret will outrange, but that’s easily controlled with barrier. Overload will outlast Kinetic Grasp, but that doesn’t mean that Sigma can’t benefit from it. Sigma is a thinner target, but Torbjorn’s RMB can still put a lot of damage on him regardless. Likewise, Zarya will be able to absorb two shots off her barrier and her beam gets a severe mitigation on armor, with Overload being more frequent this comes more in handy and on a shorter cooldown.

Again Rein or Winston, though… not really much of a change; Reinhard can still charge kill Torb, and still stall out Overload while having plenty of barrier. Torb won’t die in 3 or 4 seconds like other targets, but it will take him that long to cut through that Winston barrier and he’d, at best, have maybe 2 seconds left. Not enough to solo Winston.

Like other arguments, you’re ignoring Concussion Mines and Traps that do put some weight on what Junkrat can do to fend off or prevent approach. There’s no question that it puts more risk on Junkrat, that’s not really a debate, but it’s not really causing a loss of skill or punishing skilled shots. Because a skilled shot would be utilizing Concussion Mine to close the range on a distant aerial target and throw a frag in their face to guarantee a hit and possible kill. That’s not changing, but it also means that you’re taking a riskier attempt to guarantee that maximum damage impact.

Junkrat isn’t really built for that; or at least his gun isn’t, and it may be better to improve that. I don’t see it as a positive, but I can see what Blizzard wants to go with Junkrat.

Again, it’ll take 3+ seconds for Junkrat to carve through that barrier and that’s all Winston needs to kill Junkrat. So no change here. And again, Reinhardt’s barrier isn’t getting pierced with 5 Frags, but by 11 Frags, that’s over 6 seconds; more than enough time to put down 2 Firestrikes to kill Junkrat; utilize Charge; or approach and hammer him to death.

3 frags are enough to kill Zarya, two frags are enough to cut through her barrier. Provided she can’t aim well enough to kill Junkrat first, Zarya is likely to die first. This is the most significant, as is going against Sigma. Though he, rightly, has more opportunities for defense against Junkrat’s Frags.

All subject to change. And no one is keeping it speculative.

41

No, I am not. I am talking about what changed.

Exactly. It means considerably more risk to get value and reduces his output in the vast majority of situations. Net nerf. When you apply changes that are a net reduction of power on an already underperforming hero you make them just plain bad.

It is not punishing skill shots, it is reducing their value considerably.

I have done that. Know how often positioning even makes that a possibility? Almost never. And even when it does, going that deep usually means it was a suicide kill, unless the Pharah was WAY out of position.

The skill shots we are talking about, the ones that most good Junkrats do are things like:
*Lobbing a couple nades across the fight to tag the healers or ranged with a double shot.
*Banking a couple shot around a corner to catch the McCree off guard before he comes out and flash kills you.
*Tagging the Genji out of the air.
Etc.

Those are all being reduced in value to the point that it is basically pointless.

Again, large increase in risk for small increase in value. And at the same time most situations are taking a large nerf. We are not seeing any change to help balance the increase risk. Why are we not seeing something like extra health to make up for the fact he will unquestionably be taking more damage? Again, net power decrease on an underperforming hero.

Thanks for helping highlight why the extra damage inside 15m is a pretty insignificant buff.

Winston and Rein are already not great at dealing with Junkrat. Typically he can keep them at just outside their effective range. More notably they are really the only ones he can keep inside the 15m while being outside their ideal area. This, while not a hugely significant buff, is a buff vs them. But really only them.

Her barrier already dies in 2 frags. Her barrier is 200 health. Current frags do 120, so it takes two. Exp change would be 150 damage (if close) and take two. Zarya’s bubble doesn’t allow any over damage to go through. So zero change. And in that time she is going to be hitting him. Zarya will kill him before he gets her. And unlike Rein/Winston there is not way to keep the 15m damage while not being consistently hit. The buffed damage impact on her will be even more minor than Rein/Winston. To the point of negligible.

Yes. But that is why it is best to speak up to potential issues now while it is still subject to change.

True, many are not. But, some are. But you have to be careful of going the other way and just throwing up your hands and saying whelp, we don’t know everything so no point in even considering. Ruling out any discussion because we don’t have the whole picture is arguably just as bad as assuming we know more of the picture than we do.

42

It genuinely boggles my mind to think there are people out there under the impression that a hero that is in the top 2 picked in their role at EVERY rank could possibly think they need help.

Like???

Something is obviously already working for him if his pickrate has stayed this busted at high rank. It would have plummeted months and months and months ago when players picked up on the fact that they’re “losing more games than they’re winning”.

Just goes to show winrate isn’t a valid metric for measuring mccree’s relative strength and is in no way a reason to buff him. I think it’s well established by now that high rank players choose what’s meta over what’s fun more often than not. Him being fun doesn’t even come close to explaining how high his pickrate is towards the top of the leader board.

1 Like
43

His win rate is the worst in the game, that means he is not doing good.

He is popular because he is fun to play, but his win rate is terrible which means people who play him lose more than they win.

It is, some people just prefer to say it isn’t because it is inconvenient to them.

44

A great start for 2021 folks, another patch that buffs tank busting.

Here’s an excerpt from AndyB latest non-creator Exp feedback post:

“* Feedback from Tank players has been highly critical of this Experimental Card. General sentiment is that the increase in damage for Torb, Cassidy, and especially Junkrat are highly detrimental to their play experience with some pointing to this as further evidence of tanks being low in priority for the dev team.”

Yes, months later and we have further evidence still, that tanks being FUN does not matter in the slightest. Please prove me wrong, with action, not words.