If 7 meter is “large” gap. I can agree.
But it’s not.
It is still larger than he can get without roll.
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…
You people are essentially making this as an argument
“Runner A is going to win Runner B in a 100m race because he got new sneakers”.
Runner A is buffed and op according to that logic.
What? You didn’t seem to realize that yes, it can be used to locations he could not before.
You thought they were going for rolls at their top height, I explained that they meant at near the bottom of the landing, so they could get extra distance.
What is your problem with knowing how it works?
I’ve got you being snarky because you think I am trying to say he is OP, and I have Naph all upset because I am explaining why he needed to be buffed.
You can’t win sometimes.
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I haven’t played this game in weeks. After I heard about this ‘patch’. I thought it was another ExC…
Mccree and Hanzo don’t need buffs, at all. They’re already some of the strongest dps heroes in high ranks and this will only make the difference between the strongest and weakest even worse than it already is.
Reins buff is nothing short of silly. If he’s going to be buffed it shouldn’t be April Fools patch worthy.
Torb and Moira changes are fine.
Roll buff won’t help vs Tracer. It just makes him more oppressive vs other heroes.
The solution to Tracer being broken is to nerf her. Not to make another hero overpowered to contest her. Mccree and Tracer don’t exist in a vacuum and cant be balance as if they don’t impact other heroes. Buffing to counter is a failed idea. The history of heroes such as Brig is proof of that.
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They buffed him because they want more kids to play him after the name rebrand.
Blizzard isn’t going to nerf her. We know that. If that isn’t going to happen a buff to counters is the best you can hope for. It is rotten, I know, but that is it.
Personally, I quite like the Rein buff even if it is silly. Giving him more forward pressure by making the area more dangerous isn’t bad.
I mean, I wouldn’t have done it, but I don’t think it is awful as such, and a reason to hate the patch. If it gets more people playing tank, sign me up, is what I am saying.
But, WHILE Tracer is walking over GM, McCree will keep being buffed, because his win rate will be garbage there. It is the Blizzard way.
I’m happy because it wasn’t a massive buff, but I expect the next one will be.
For Hanzo, I think they are trying it out, and will tweak his storm arrows down in number if he gets too strong.
You are not realizing that rolling existed before today and yes, he rolls same distance as he did before. Regardless of air or land.
What’s your point? Like what are you trying to tell me that actually has value?
he can jump… and JUST before he falls into a pit, he can roll, EXTENDING THE DISTANCE OF THE JUMP.
See how it works? It gives him access to places he couldn’t normally get to, because he can add his roll to how far he can jump now.
Where before he couldn’t.
It isn’t that he rolls further is that he can add his jump distance to a roll for crossing gaps. This opens up flanker routes.
You keep mentioning cree vs tracer. Yet there’s at least 3 people telling you cree buff doesn’t help against tracer and instead causes other problems.
I’m not the one being upset here.
Which is why he will be buffed MORE later. You think we haven’t seen this out of Blizzard MANY times before?
You think this is the first time they have done things like this?
Do you think people who have played since season 1 don’t know how Blizzard do things and why?
The problem of that you can’t just buff the counter because those 2 heroes also interact with other heroes. You also need to buff everything else or they will get demolished by the buffed hero.
All it does it create 2 tiers of heroes. The strong and the unviable.
I fundamentally disagree that we should just accept Blizzards refusal to nerf Tracer and buffing of already strong heroes. No. It’s blatant imbalance and not acceptable in a competitive game.
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I know, but you also know Blizzard right?
With that win rate in GM they are going to keep buffing him until it is not as garbage right?
And you know why it is garbage, so you know this isn’t going to be the last buff he gets.
I fundamentally disagree that we should just accept Blizzards refusal to nerf Tracer and buffing of already strong heroes. No. It’s blatant imbalance and not acceptable in a competitive game.
What other choice do we have? Blizzard isn’t going to nerf her, so seeing not a huge buff for Cass is a win.
Let me ask you a question, do you REALLY think Blizzard is going to nerf Tracer now?
Because I sure as hell don’t, and because of that, I think ONLY a small buff to McCree is us dodging a much larger bullet for now.
I don’t think it is the last buff we will see to him because of this.
Do I think they should have nerfed the living hell out of Tracer instead? sure do! Do I think that is going to happen? I do not.
And because of that, I think we got off REALLY lightly here. If they decide to revert roll, because of player backlash, what do you think their next move will be?
Do you think it will be buff the living hell out of McCree? Because I do, especially at a 48% win rate in GM.
You know it isn’t the right thing to do, I know it isn’t the right thing to do, but we all know what is coming right?
Do you expect ANYTHING else right now?
GIVEN the Tracer nerf isn’t going to happen, this is as good of an outcome as we can expect.
You are not understanding what win rate actually means. Most people don’t seem to grasp it. People think low win rate means bad hero. But the thing is, the matchmaker really removes that consideration. Let me explain:
Any hero that you play regularly will be pushed towards a 50% win rate. Why? Well, if you win you get matched with stronger opponents till you don’t win. If you lose, weaker ones till you don’t lose. And if you play the hero at all regularly that action will push that hero towards a 50/50 win rate. That is the nature of how it works. When you see a significant variance from the 50/50 you are seeing the effects of people who do not normally play the hero. In the case of Cassidy we can logically conclude it is counter picking as he counters a lot of heroes (and Tracer less than many of them). As players who do not normally play him are not as practiced they wont be able to play him quite up to their rank, they will lose on him more than on their regular heroes. The question becomes, why are they finding enough value on him to make the choice to counter pick using him rather than a more practiced hero? The reality is this likely is another indicator that he is to good at countering some heroes. Ironically the lower win rate is likely an indicator that he is just to good.
And if people in GM are still finding value to switching to him: He IS working there, to well in fact.
This is a really bad approach. If you are saying the only reason he needs buffs is to be a counter pick to flankers, then buffing him will make him more of a problem outside flankers. So, you are just creating a new problem rather than solving the flanker issue. It is like trying to stop forest fires by clearcutting the forest.
I would take Brig being 10x as good any day of the week. There are at least ways of countering her.
Hey, let’s compound one bad choice with another. Failure to address an issue is not a good excuse to make a new issue.
Rolling in the air is a new tool. It doesn’t have to be a new ability to qualify as a new tool.
Yah, and Soldier or Zarya rocket jump doesn’t make them superman. But it still lets them get to locations, cross gaps, etc.
No, just take a step back and think things through. You know, use your brain. Think about those jumps you can almost, but not quite make, normally. Now picture jump>roll. Get the idea? Or think about jumping off a structure and rolling in the air as an escape or engage. That adds quite a bit of speed and distance.
These are not difficult concepts.
He said: “larger”
This means gaps he could not jump across before, now he can. In other words, he can do things he could not do before. Translation: Buff.
No, it would be more like: ‘Runner’ A is on a motorcycle and they just added an extra gear to make it faster.
Cassidy was already OP. And they just increased his power.
You are arguing that it is okay for Blizzard to do something wrong because Blizzard does something else wrong.
We can still give them repeated and strong feedback saying it is bad. We shouldn’t just be quite because Blizzard does something else wrong.
Not garbage. You are fundamentally misunderstanding win rate.
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This will be good.
any hero that you play regularly will be pushed towards a 50% win rate.
You will be pushed towards average for your SR, which isn’t normally 50%.
Why? Well, if you win you get matched with stronger opponents till you don’t win. If you lose, weaker ones till you don’t lose.
Right, but you are missing that the matchmaker is ALSO trying to get you into game, on the edge of the bell curve you will have games with people further in FAR more often than people further out, BECAUSE there is just more of them.
It is easier if I just point you at my guide to win rates…
Here you go.
Read that, you will understand them more often AND more importantly the “why” of McCree’s win rate.
I’ve covered all this, in MUCH more detail than this, many times before.
Oh, I think you don’t know what my job was. I wrote matchmakers for games. I know more about win rates and how matchmaking works than you would believe.
The problem is, I also know Blizzard, and how they decide to buff / nerf people.
I mean, you can ignore me, and be surprised when they buff him again, or maybe you can actually listen, and realize you don’t know as much as you think you do.
More so, you are assuming in YOUR model of how it works, that people are not switching heroes mid game.
Now, when I wrote the OWL viewer, one of the more interesting things is, People WHEN LOSING would switch to heroes to dealing with their current problems.
They have a MUCH lower win rate, because typically they start on the back foot. You don’t switch to McCree when you are winning, but you FREQUANTLY do when you are losing.
Where my “garbage” comment is, is that those switches are also meant to work at least to some degree.
But McCree isn’t right now, as seen by his win rate. (which while it should be lower than people should expect, shouldn’t be THIS low)
Which is why Blizzard is going to buff him, over and over again until he STARTS working.
Now this here? THIS we 100% agree on.
But they won’t nerf Tracer. So, we get what we get here.
Most other people won’t, so you are stuck with McCree (sorry)
It is the Blizzard way ™
No seriously I don’t know when you started playing but this isn’t exactly a new problem here. Brig was created because of this problem.
It is NOT a new problem, and it isn’t going to be solved any time soon. The best we can hope for is that the patching over this issue isn’t too painful. Which is why I am happy with this patch. They haven’t done the MASSIVE buff to McCree which is coming.
No I am saying you SHOULD complain about the root cause, but people have done so for a long time now, and we know that they are not ever going to do it.
So you have to be realist in what you expect from that.
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Good lord, yes it is. If you win, you go up. If you lose you go down. It is not a hard concept. This will push all your values towards a 50% win/loss. There will always be minor fluctuations because of myriads of variables such as how often you play one hero or another, why you play it ect. But at the end of the day it will always be pushing you towards the 50% mark for any hero you play on a regular basis.
Yes. Higher or lower than your skill value. Over the long run the times it drops you in higher is going to be relatively balanced with the ones it drops you in lower. There will be some variation, as is the case with ALL statistics. But those variations are minor and again it is still trying to push you towards the 50% mark.
Significant variation, particularly in large groups indicates something else is at play.
Sounds great…but…
If you really think Cassidy having a lower win rate indicates he is “garbage,” you don’t understand it.
Again, I go back to:
Blizzard doing one thing wrong does not mean we should be happy about them doing another thing wrong.
Cassidy buff is a bad choice, period. It doesn’t matter if they made a bad choice in not nerfing Tracer (Note, I agree she needs nerfed). We can, and should, give negative feedback on this Cassidy change.
No it doesn’t. People switching does effect things, but not so much as you think. Because it still ends up in the same situation. Either the hero gets them over the finish line or it doesn’t. Sure, you get some statistical variation, but it is minor.
Correct. And you are less practiced on the hero. And…
The point is: Low win rate does NOT equal a weak hero.
And they do, as evidenced by the fact that people find enough value in switching that they continue to do it. People not as practiced at Cassidy may not garner a 50% win rate just by switching to him, but they do turn at least some of what would otherwise be loses into wins. There is absolutely value.
Probably wont nerf her. There is clear and evident bias. Cassidy included in that.
But, again: We should not be happy about a bad choice just because they also made a different bad choice.
At release.
I know it is not a new problem. But that is kind of the point. We should continue to give negative feedback every time the repeat the same mistake.
That is like saying I am happy being hit with a baseball bat because it might have been a sludge hammer.
Look, I get it. But I will NOT be happy with another broken patch just because they could have done something so much worse.
Oh, I know what to expect. I even posted on the feedback when this was on the experimental that I fully expected it would go live despite how bad it is. Doesn’t stop me from saying how bad it is now.
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Its not bias, they just balance with internal stats that only themselves know so a lot of times changes don’t make sense. I mean, just go back and look at the time they said that Genji and Soldier didn’t need buffs as they were good heroes when they were clearly underperforming in pretty much every rank.
i was jokingly saying next patch would bring a useless support/tank buff and another hitscan buff, this balance team is so predictably bad
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Ok, lets break this down, because you seem bright, and it would be good for you to understand this.
First thing, let me show you the stats, and then we can talk about how it you end up in this place.
Because you WOULD be right, if the matchmaker was PURELY based on MMR which it is not.
There are 3 heroes in Bronze with an above 50% win rate, ALL others are lower than that.
There are 2 heroes in GM with a win rate below 50%, ALL others are above that.
And you look at silver, and gold, and the rest of them and you see this bell curve of average win rates…
IF your theory was correct, they would all be at 50% average, but they are not.
The reason for this is interesting. The matchmaker wants to get game together… It has a number of constraints, one of which is, every person needs to be within a certain SR range.
It has to generate two teams, if you are low ranked, there are MORE players it can pick higher ranked than you, because of the bell curve they put everyone on, and that the constraint is by SR rather than by MMR.
Say you are in silver. The match makers has WAY more people in gold who are eligible for the game, than it does in bronze. There just isn’t a lot of people in Bronze. So, what happens is, you end up playing with and against people of a higher SR on average.
With your team slightly lower in SR in total, because you constrain it.
It is super interesting.
Anyway you can VERY quickly go look at overbuff and win rates, and just look across the different ranks and you will see the effect VERY clearly.
But the point is, no it is NOT 50% at all ranks.
No I understand he should be at a lower win rate, but not THIS low. This means lots of people are switching to him and then losing badly, against teams which lower SR than your team, because the same effect I was talking about applies here too.
Your average win rate in GM is about 53% ish…
You would expect your counter to end up around 50%, not 48%… Which means he is losing a lot.
To do what? Blizzard isn’t going to Nerf Tracer, so any nerf you manage to to apply will be reverted, harder… again.
Sure it does. Grab the OWL dataset and see how often a switched hero wins. It is here…
https://overwatchleague.com/en-us/statslab you can get a REAL clear picture of switches and how they effect the game at high ranks.
but don’t take my word for it, download it yourself and run the numbers.
I could bring up the OWL viewer website again, but I’d have to reprocess everything and load it into Atlas, and I’m not going to do that before OW2, it is too much work for not enough reward.
Right, but within an expected range. It is obvious that Cass IS being switched to a lot, and is not working often.
What choice do that have? They WILL lose otherwise.
I agree, but McCree is a side effect of the Tracer bias. You fix that and his stats goes back up, you know, like it did when Brig was suppressing her for ages.
Cass is being buffed heavily after Brig was nerfed hard enough to stop really being effective and Tracer was buffed.
Ok, so you know what happened all the way up to Brig’s release and how it came about.
You really think Blizzard is going to start listening now about Tracer? You are WAY more optimistic than I am.
Sure, and it doesn’t stop me being happy that McCree wasn’t buffed more than he was.
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