You keep mentioning cree vs tracer. Yet there’s at least 3 people telling you cree buff doesn’t help against tracer and instead causes other problems.
I’m not the one being upset here.
Which is why he will be buffed MORE later. You think we haven’t seen this out of Blizzard MANY times before?
You think this is the first time they have done things like this?
Do you think people who have played since season 1 don’t know how Blizzard do things and why?
The problem of that you can’t just buff the counter because those 2 heroes also interact with other heroes. You also need to buff everything else or they will get demolished by the buffed hero.
All it does it create 2 tiers of heroes. The strong and the unviable.
I fundamentally disagree that we should just accept Blizzards refusal to nerf Tracer and buffing of already strong heroes. No. It’s blatant imbalance and not acceptable in a competitive game.
4 Likes
I know, but you also know Blizzard right?
With that win rate in GM they are going to keep buffing him until it is not as garbage right?
And you know why it is garbage, so you know this isn’t going to be the last buff he gets.
I fundamentally disagree that we should just accept Blizzards refusal to nerf Tracer and buffing of already strong heroes. No. It’s blatant imbalance and not acceptable in a competitive game.
What other choice do we have? Blizzard isn’t going to nerf her, so seeing not a huge buff for Cass is a win.
Let me ask you a question, do you REALLY think Blizzard is going to nerf Tracer now?
Because I sure as hell don’t, and because of that, I think ONLY a small buff to McCree is us dodging a much larger bullet for now.
I don’t think it is the last buff we will see to him because of this.
Do I think they should have nerfed the living hell out of Tracer instead? sure do! Do I think that is going to happen? I do not.
And because of that, I think we got off REALLY lightly here. If they decide to revert roll, because of player backlash, what do you think their next move will be?
Do you think it will be buff the living hell out of McCree? Because I do, especially at a 48% win rate in GM.
You know it isn’t the right thing to do, I know it isn’t the right thing to do, but we all know what is coming right?
Do you expect ANYTHING else right now?
GIVEN the Tracer nerf isn’t going to happen, this is as good of an outcome as we can expect.
You are not understanding what win rate actually means. Most people don’t seem to grasp it. People think low win rate means bad hero. But the thing is, the matchmaker really removes that consideration. Let me explain:
Any hero that you play regularly will be pushed towards a 50% win rate. Why? Well, if you win you get matched with stronger opponents till you don’t win. If you lose, weaker ones till you don’t lose. And if you play the hero at all regularly that action will push that hero towards a 50/50 win rate. That is the nature of how it works. When you see a significant variance from the 50/50 you are seeing the effects of people who do not normally play the hero. In the case of Cassidy we can logically conclude it is counter picking as he counters a lot of heroes (and Tracer less than many of them). As players who do not normally play him are not as practiced they wont be able to play him quite up to their rank, they will lose on him more than on their regular heroes. The question becomes, why are they finding enough value on him to make the choice to counter pick using him rather than a more practiced hero? The reality is this likely is another indicator that he is to good at countering some heroes. Ironically the lower win rate is likely an indicator that he is just to good.
And if people in GM are still finding value to switching to him: He IS working there, to well in fact.
This is a really bad approach. If you are saying the only reason he needs buffs is to be a counter pick to flankers, then buffing him will make him more of a problem outside flankers. So, you are just creating a new problem rather than solving the flanker issue. It is like trying to stop forest fires by clearcutting the forest.
I would take Brig being 10x as good any day of the week. There are at least ways of countering her.
Hey, let’s compound one bad choice with another. Failure to address an issue is not a good excuse to make a new issue.
Rolling in the air is a new tool. It doesn’t have to be a new ability to qualify as a new tool.
Yah, and Soldier or Zarya rocket jump doesn’t make them superman. But it still lets them get to locations, cross gaps, etc.
No, just take a step back and think things through. You know, use your brain. Think about those jumps you can almost, but not quite make, normally. Now picture jump>roll. Get the idea? Or think about jumping off a structure and rolling in the air as an escape or engage. That adds quite a bit of speed and distance.
These are not difficult concepts.
He said: “larger”
This means gaps he could not jump across before, now he can. In other words, he can do things he could not do before. Translation: Buff.
No, it would be more like: ‘Runner’ A is on a motorcycle and they just added an extra gear to make it faster.
Cassidy was already OP. And they just increased his power.
You are arguing that it is okay for Blizzard to do something wrong because Blizzard does something else wrong.
We can still give them repeated and strong feedback saying it is bad. We shouldn’t just be quite because Blizzard does something else wrong.
Not garbage. You are fundamentally misunderstanding win rate.
2 Likes
This will be good.
any hero that you play regularly will be pushed towards a 50% win rate.
You will be pushed towards average for your SR, which isn’t normally 50%.
Why? Well, if you win you get matched with stronger opponents till you don’t win. If you lose, weaker ones till you don’t lose.
Right, but you are missing that the matchmaker is ALSO trying to get you into game, on the edge of the bell curve you will have games with people further in FAR more often than people further out, BECAUSE there is just more of them.
It is easier if I just point you at my guide to win rates…
Here you go.
Read that, you will understand them more often AND more importantly the “why” of McCree’s win rate.
I’ve covered all this, in MUCH more detail than this, many times before.
Oh, I think you don’t know what my job was. I wrote matchmakers for games. I know more about win rates and how matchmaking works than you would believe.
The problem is, I also know Blizzard, and how they decide to buff / nerf people.
I mean, you can ignore me, and be surprised when they buff him again, or maybe you can actually listen, and realize you don’t know as much as you think you do.
More so, you are assuming in YOUR model of how it works, that people are not switching heroes mid game.
Now, when I wrote the OWL viewer, one of the more interesting things is, People WHEN LOSING would switch to heroes to dealing with their current problems.
They have a MUCH lower win rate, because typically they start on the back foot. You don’t switch to McCree when you are winning, but you FREQUANTLY do when you are losing.
Where my “garbage” comment is, is that those switches are also meant to work at least to some degree.
But McCree isn’t right now, as seen by his win rate. (which while it should be lower than people should expect, shouldn’t be THIS low)
Which is why Blizzard is going to buff him, over and over again until he STARTS working.
Now this here? THIS we 100% agree on.
But they won’t nerf Tracer. So, we get what we get here.
Most other people won’t, so you are stuck with McCree (sorry)
It is the Blizzard way ™
No seriously I don’t know when you started playing but this isn’t exactly a new problem here. Brig was created because of this problem.
It is NOT a new problem, and it isn’t going to be solved any time soon. The best we can hope for is that the patching over this issue isn’t too painful. Which is why I am happy with this patch. They haven’t done the MASSIVE buff to McCree which is coming.
No I am saying you SHOULD complain about the root cause, but people have done so for a long time now, and we know that they are not ever going to do it.
So you have to be realist in what you expect from that.
1 Like
Good lord, yes it is. If you win, you go up. If you lose you go down. It is not a hard concept. This will push all your values towards a 50% win/loss. There will always be minor fluctuations because of myriads of variables such as how often you play one hero or another, why you play it ect. But at the end of the day it will always be pushing you towards the 50% mark for any hero you play on a regular basis.
Yes. Higher or lower than your skill value. Over the long run the times it drops you in higher is going to be relatively balanced with the ones it drops you in lower. There will be some variation, as is the case with ALL statistics. But those variations are minor and again it is still trying to push you towards the 50% mark.
Significant variation, particularly in large groups indicates something else is at play.
Sounds great…but…
If you really think Cassidy having a lower win rate indicates he is “garbage,” you don’t understand it.
Again, I go back to:
Blizzard doing one thing wrong does not mean we should be happy about them doing another thing wrong.
Cassidy buff is a bad choice, period. It doesn’t matter if they made a bad choice in not nerfing Tracer (Note, I agree she needs nerfed). We can, and should, give negative feedback on this Cassidy change.
No it doesn’t. People switching does effect things, but not so much as you think. Because it still ends up in the same situation. Either the hero gets them over the finish line or it doesn’t. Sure, you get some statistical variation, but it is minor.
Correct. And you are less practiced on the hero. And…
The point is: Low win rate does NOT equal a weak hero.
And they do, as evidenced by the fact that people find enough value in switching that they continue to do it. People not as practiced at Cassidy may not garner a 50% win rate just by switching to him, but they do turn at least some of what would otherwise be loses into wins. There is absolutely value.
Probably wont nerf her. There is clear and evident bias. Cassidy included in that.
But, again: We should not be happy about a bad choice just because they also made a different bad choice.
At release.
I know it is not a new problem. But that is kind of the point. We should continue to give negative feedback every time the repeat the same mistake.
That is like saying I am happy being hit with a baseball bat because it might have been a sludge hammer.
Look, I get it. But I will NOT be happy with another broken patch just because they could have done something so much worse.
Oh, I know what to expect. I even posted on the feedback when this was on the experimental that I fully expected it would go live despite how bad it is. Doesn’t stop me from saying how bad it is now.
1 Like
Its not bias, they just balance with internal stats that only themselves know so a lot of times changes don’t make sense. I mean, just go back and look at the time they said that Genji and Soldier didn’t need buffs as they were good heroes when they were clearly underperforming in pretty much every rank.
i was jokingly saying next patch would bring a useless support/tank buff and another hitscan buff, this balance team is so predictably bad
2 Likes
Ok, lets break this down, because you seem bright, and it would be good for you to understand this.
First thing, let me show you the stats, and then we can talk about how it you end up in this place.
Because you WOULD be right, if the matchmaker was PURELY based on MMR which it is not.
There are 3 heroes in Bronze with an above 50% win rate, ALL others are lower than that.
There are 2 heroes in GM with a win rate below 50%, ALL others are above that.
And you look at silver, and gold, and the rest of them and you see this bell curve of average win rates…
IF your theory was correct, they would all be at 50% average, but they are not.
The reason for this is interesting. The matchmaker wants to get game together… It has a number of constraints, one of which is, every person needs to be within a certain SR range.
It has to generate two teams, if you are low ranked, there are MORE players it can pick higher ranked than you, because of the bell curve they put everyone on, and that the constraint is by SR rather than by MMR.
Say you are in silver. The match makers has WAY more people in gold who are eligible for the game, than it does in bronze. There just isn’t a lot of people in Bronze. So, what happens is, you end up playing with and against people of a higher SR on average.
With your team slightly lower in SR in total, because you constrain it.
It is super interesting.
Anyway you can VERY quickly go look at overbuff and win rates, and just look across the different ranks and you will see the effect VERY clearly.
But the point is, no it is NOT 50% at all ranks.
No I understand he should be at a lower win rate, but not THIS low. This means lots of people are switching to him and then losing badly, against teams which lower SR than your team, because the same effect I was talking about applies here too.
Your average win rate in GM is about 53% ish…
You would expect your counter to end up around 50%, not 48%… Which means he is losing a lot.
To do what? Blizzard isn’t going to Nerf Tracer, so any nerf you manage to to apply will be reverted, harder… again.
Sure it does. Grab the OWL dataset and see how often a switched hero wins. It is here…
https://overwatchleague.com/en-us/statslab you can get a REAL clear picture of switches and how they effect the game at high ranks.
but don’t take my word for it, download it yourself and run the numbers.
I could bring up the OWL viewer website again, but I’d have to reprocess everything and load it into Atlas, and I’m not going to do that before OW2, it is too much work for not enough reward.
Right, but within an expected range. It is obvious that Cass IS being switched to a lot, and is not working often.
What choice do that have? They WILL lose otherwise.
I agree, but McCree is a side effect of the Tracer bias. You fix that and his stats goes back up, you know, like it did when Brig was suppressing her for ages.
Cass is being buffed heavily after Brig was nerfed hard enough to stop really being effective and Tracer was buffed.
Ok, so you know what happened all the way up to Brig’s release and how it came about.
You really think Blizzard is going to start listening now about Tracer? You are WAY more optimistic than I am.
Sure, and it doesn’t stop me being happy that McCree wasn’t buffed more than he was.
1 Like
Not for nothing, but this sounds an awful lot like, “Well you know, just, god works in mysterious ways or something”.
Couple of things
1: we don’t know for sure they have internal stats to monitor, or what stats are even monitored
2: even if they do, we don’t know that they actually bother to track them
3: even if they do, we don’t know that they are capable of understanding them
4: even if they do, we don’t know that they actually care to do anything about it
5: even if they do, we don’t know that they have permission from higher-ups to make the fixes that are necessary
6: even if they do, we don’t know that they have the capability of acting upon it successfully
7: even if they do, they always gravitate towards making already high-use heroes better, instead of using any brainstorming sessions to introduce new solutions to these problems
One of the driving reasons Cassidy is so prolific is that someone decided he needed to be the answer to almost every problem in this game. And if he isn’t the answer, then somehow the question must be wrong.
Whatever objective they are trying to achieve in buffing Cassidy, would have been better for the game’s health if they tried nerfing the problem or utilizing any of the 15 other DPS tool sets to facilitate a solution.
Yes, they have a very clear and very heavy bias, and it’s killing this game’s fun.
3 Likes
I can give you a list, there is a lot of them. I have gotten raw aggregated stats out of Blizzard before.
They do.
They do, mostly.
They do.
Here is where it gets rough. They do have a lot of constraints, and they have to keep the pro player base happy, because of the focus on OWL.
Kinda, he was the solution to Tracer, and when they made a second, (Brig) the backlash was SO bad they never made the third.
I mean, how do you make a Tracer counter which is high skill and works? Actually sitting down and giving it a try, you find it is REALLY hard, especially if you don’t want to utterly monster a bunch of other heroes in the game.
There just isn’t any mechanics which really work for it.
This I agree with.
2 Likes
One of the driving reasons Cassidy is so prolific is that someone decided he needed to be the answer to almost every problem in this game. And if he isn’t the answer, then somehow the question must be wrong.
Whatever objective they are trying to achieve in buffing Cassidy, would have been better for the game’s health if they tried nerfing the problem or utilizing any of the 15 other DPS tool sets to facilitate a solution.
Yes, they have a very clear and very heavy bias, and it’s killing this game’s fun.
When accountability is so low they can do this so blatantly
It’s a shame
I ran out of likes for the day but I’d like your post if I could
2 Likes
I’ll do it for you, because it does need a liking.
1 Like
By buffing tracer’s falloff from 10 to 12 meters
oh wait
I’ll do it for you, because it does need a liking.
thx bruh
1 Like
Look, i’d not say bias because Jeff has stated multiple times that Genji and Hanzo are the overall favorite heroes of the team if i remember correctly and yet Genji doesn’t even come close to Cass levels of power. They just for some non sense reason think he is weak on some internal playtests. Their tests seem to be equivalent to someone going to practice range and hitting headshots on a standing still target and thinking the hero is overpowered.
I KNOW RIGHT?!?
sigh
As Xorkrath said…
But I don’t think it is towards McCree, I think McCree is a side effect of it.
In that case, why can’t Sym get increased range, have auto-lock and allow orbs go through barriers?
And pick up objects 
Sym lost the ability to pick up object?
Blizzard the fun police
This is a subset of the stats.
Ability Damage Done
Accretion Kills
Accretion Stuns
Adaptive Shield Uses
Air Uptime
Air Uptime Percentage
All Damage Done
Amped Heal Activations
Amped Speed Activations
Amplification Matrix Assists
Amplification Matrix Casts
Amplification Matrix Efficiency
Armor - Rally
Armor Provided
Assists
Average Energy
Average Players per Teleporter
Average Time Alive
Barrage Efficiency
Barrage Kills
Barrier Damage Done
Biotic Field Healing Done
Biotic Fields Deployed
Biotic Grenade Kills
Biotic Launcher Healing Explosions
Biotic Launcher Healing Shots
Biotic Orb Damage Efficiency
Biotic Orb Healing Efficiency
Biotic Orb Maximum Damage
Biotic Orb Maximum Healing
Blaster Kills
Blizzard Efficiency
Blizzard Kills
Bob Gun Damage
Bob Kills
Charge Kills
Coach Gun Kills
Coalescence Healing
Coalescence Kills
Coalesence - Damage per Use
Coalesence - Healing per Use
Concussion Mine Kills
Critical Hit Accuracy
Critical Hit Kills
Critical Hits
Damage - Accretion
Damage - Barrage
Damage - Biotic Grenade
Damage - Biotic Orb
Damage - Blizzard
Damage - Bob
Damage - Bob Charge
Damage - Boosters
Damage - Call Mech
Damage - Chain Hook
Damage - Charge
Damage - Coach Gun
Damage - Coalescence
Damage - Concussion Mine
Damage - Deadeye
Damage - Death Blossom
Damage - Deflect
Damage - Discord Orb
Damage - Dragonblade
Damage - Dragonblade Total
Damage - Dragonstrike
Damage - Duplicate
Damage - Dynamite
Damage - Earthshatter
Damage - EMP
Damage - Fire Strike
Damage - Flashbang
Damage - Focusing Beam
Damage - Focusing Beam - Bonus Damage Only
Damage - Grappling Claw
Damage - Graviton Surge
Damage - Helix Rockets
Damage - Hyperspheres
Damage - Jump Pack
Damage - Meteor Strike
Damage - Micro Missiles
Damage - Minefield
Damage - Molten Core
Damage - Piledriver
Damage - Pistol
Damage - Primal Rage Leap
Damage - Primal Rage Melee
Damage - Primal Rage Total
Damage - Pulse Bomb
Damage - Quick Melee
Damage - RIP-Tire
Damage - Rising Uppercut
Damage - Rocket Punch
Damage - Seismic Slam
Damage - Self Destruct
Damage - Sentry Turret
Damage - Shield Bash
Damage - Sonic
Damage - Steel Trap
Damage - Sticky Bombs
Damage - Storm Arrows
Damage - Swift Strike
Damage - Swift Strike Dragonblade
Damage - Tactical Visor
Damage - Total Mayhem
Damage - Venom Mine
Damage - Weapon
Damage - Weapon Charged
Damage - Weapon Hammer
Damage - Weapon Pistol
Damage - Weapon Primary
Damage - Weapon Recon
Damage - Weapon Scoped
Damage - Weapon Secondary
Damage - Weapon Sentry
Damage - Weapon Tank
Damage - Whole Hog
Damage Absorbed
Damage Amplified
Damage Blocked
Damage Done
Damage Prevented
Damage Reflected
Damage Taken
Damage Taken - Adaptive Shield
Damage Taken - Ball
Damage Taken - Tank
Deadeye Efficiency
Deadeye Kills
Death Blossom Efficiency
Death Blossom Kills
Death Blossoms
Deaths
Defensive Assists
Deflection Kills
Direct Hit Accuracy
Discord Orb Time
Dragonblade Efficiency
Dragonblade Kills
Dragonblades
Dragonstrike Efficiency
Dragonstrike Kills
Duplicate Kills
Dynamite Kills
Earthshatter Efficiency
Earthshatter Kills
Earthshatter Stuns
Eliminations
EMP Efficiency
Enemies EMP’d
Enemies Frozen
Enemies Hacked
Enemies Hooked
Enemies Slept
Enemies Trapped
Energy Maximum
Environmental Deaths
Environmental Kills
Fan the Hammer Kills
Final Blows
Fire Strike Kills
Focusing Beam Accuracy
Focusing Beam Dealing Damage Seconds
Focusing Beam Kills
Focusing Beam Seconds
Frag Launcher Direct Hits
Freeze Spray Damage
Grappling Claw Impacts
Grappling Claw Kills
Grappling Claw Uses
Gravitic Flux Damage Done
Gravitic Flux Kills
Graviton Surge Efficiency
Graviton Surge Kills
Hammer Kills
Harmony Orb Time
Heal Song Time Elapsed
Healing - Biotic Grenade
Healing - Biotic Launcher
Healing - Biotic Orb
Healing - Coalescence
Healing - Harmony Orb
Healing - Healing Boost
Healing - Healing Boost Amped
Healing - Immortality Field
Healing - Inspire
Healing - Regenerative Burst
Healing - Repair Pack
Healing - Secondary Fire
Healing - Transcendence
Healing - Weapon
Healing - Weapon Scoped
Healing - Weapon Valkyrie
Healing Accuracy
Healing Amplified
Healing Done
Healing Received
Health Recovered
Helix Rocket Kills
Hero Damage Done
High Energy Kills
Hook Accuracy
Hooks Attempted
Hyperspheres Direct Hits
Icicle Damage
Immortality Field Deaths Prevented
Infra-Sight Efficiency
Infra-sight Uptime
Inspire Uptime
Inspire Uptime Percentage
Jump Pack Kills
Knockback Kills
Lifetime Energy Accumulation
Match Blinks Used
Mech Deaths
Mechs Called
Melee Final Blows
Melee Kills
Melee Percentage of Final Blows
Meteor Strike Efficiency
Meteor Strike Kills
Minefield Kills
Molten Core Efficiency
Molten Core Kills
Multikills
Nano Boost Assists
Nano Boost Efficiency
Nano Boosts Applied
NULL
Objective Kills
Objective Time
of Rockets Fired
Offensive Assists
Overload Kills
Photon Projector Kills
Piledriver Kills
Piledriver Uses
Players Halted
Players Knocked Back
Players Resurrected
Players Saved
Players Teleported
Primal Rage Efficiency
Primal Rage Kills
Primal Rage Melee Accuracy
Primal Rage Melee Efficiency
Primal Rage Melee Hits
Primal Rage Melee Hits - Multiple
Primal Rage Melee Ticks
Primary Fire Accuracy
Primary Fire Average Level
Primary Fire Hits
Primary Fire Hits Hits - Level
Primary Fire Ticks
Projected Barrier Damage Blocked
Projected Barriers Applied
Pulse Bomb Attach Rate
Pulse Bomb Efficiency
Pulse Bomb Kills
Pulse Bombs Attached
Quick Melee Accuracy
Quick Melee Hits
Quick Melee Ticks
Rally Armor Efficiency
Recalls Used
Recon Assists
Recon Kills
RIP-Tire Efficiency
RIP-Tire Kills
Rocket Barrages
Rocket Direct Hits
Rocket Hammer Melee Accuracy
Rocket Hammer Melee Average Targets
Rocket Hammer Melee Hits
Rocket Hammer Melee Hits - Multiple
Rocket Hammer Melee Ticks
Roll Uptime
Roll Uptime Percentage
Roll Uses
Scoped Accuracy
Scoped Critical Hit Accuracy
Scoped Critical Hit Kills
Scoped Critical Hits
Scoped Hits
Scoped Shots
Secondary Direct Hits
Secondary Fire Accuracy
Secondary Fire Hits
Secondary Fire Ticks
Self Destruct Efficiency
Self Healing
Self Healing Percent of Damage Taken
Self-Destruct Kills
Self-Destructs
Sentry Kills
Sentry Turret Kills
Shielding - Adaptive Shield
Shields Created
Shots Fired
Shots Hit
Shots Missed
Sleep Dart Hits
Sleep Dart Shots
Sleep Dart Success Rate
Solo Kills
Sound Barrier Casts
Sound Barrier Efficiency
Sound Barriers Provided
Soundwave Kills
Speed Song Time Elapsed
stat_name
Sticky Bombs Direct Hit Accuracy
Sticky Bombs Direct Hits
Sticky Bombs Kills
Sticky Bombs Useds
Storm Arrow Kills
Successful Freezes
Supercharger Assists
Supercharger Efficiency
Tactical Visor Efficiency
Tactical Visor Kills
Tactical Visors
Tank Efficiency
Tank Kills
Teleporter Pads Destroyed
Teleporter Uptime
Teleporters Placed
Tesla Cannon Accuracy
Tesla Cannon Efficiency
Tesla Cannon Hits
Tesla Cannon Hits - Multiple
Tesla Cannon Ticks
Time Alive
Time Building Ultimate
Time Discorded
Time Elapsed per Ultimate Earned
Time Hacked
Time Holding Ultimate
Time Played
Torbjörn Kills
Total Mayhem Kills
Total Time Frozen
Transcendence Efficiency
Transcendence Healing
Transcendence Percent of Healing
Turret Damage
Turret Kills
Turrets Destroyed
Ultimates Earned - Fractional
Ultimates Negated
Ultimates Used
Unscoped Accuracy
Unscoped Hits
Unscoped Shots
Valkyrie Healing Efficiency
Venom Mine Kills
Weapon Accuracy
Weapon Kills
Whole Hog Efficiency
Whole Hog Kills
Now that is the aggregated stats, they have events for each of these, which contain when it happen, from who, to who, on which map, if they won lost or draw, who was in the team, what SR people were, which heroes, etc etc etc etc…
The big dataset is big.
1 Like