The Role Queue Fallacy

So, what is your plan to fix this “100% players fault” problem?
Banning everyone who hasn’t about the same hidden MMR with all heroes? xD

Guess where the OWL pros are playing when they aren’t playing an OWL match?
Competitive mode - just like everyone else.

Role queue isn’t “impossible”.
Many other games use it and it works.
Unlike the current match making system in Overwatch which rather feels like a lottery.

Well, if queue times is really an issue, they could do a randomized DraftPick for Roles instead.

Posted about it yesterday and two months ago, but hardly anybody seemed to be interested.

✅[Draft Pick] 2Flex-2Tank-2Heal

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This is what I am hoping for as well.
Sorry I did not see your post.

I started this game wanting to master genji, but all my games were full of people who also wanted to DPS and we constantly had a lack of people who seemed comfortable playing support.

So I decided when I was going to give this game another shot I’d go at it trying to play support; in most games that have this sort of structure I try to play the needed position to avoid constantly being at a deficit. In games where someone else wants to play main heal, I work on my lucio. If both heals are covered I will tank and have been working on my Zarya when off tanking is needed. But most of the time I don’t have people in my squads jumping to get on main healer. I can also flex to a few DPS classes if I need to, but I can count on one hand the amount of games that has been required.

What I cannot control is the other 5 people on my team typically at least half of which will not swap, they’re playing what they decided they want. This is the problem most of the time.

How is my performance not affected if I’m a solo healer on a team with 4 DPS constantly “flanking” (read: going on solo deathmatch missions and feeding). While the other team’s healer has 2 tanks with large health pools to heal? playing as an unorganized team - but at least they’re somewhat grouped up. When you get 3-4 groups in a row like this how are you supposed to feel like this is a serious competitive environment?

No, your critique of role queue is it won’t be perfect and you’ll still get people who don’t know what they’re doing, no argument there that’s how it works with people involved. But you won’t get people that have to play tank who DO NOT WANT TO, and as the system evolves and more people can play tank in a stable group you’ll get more tanks who know what they are doing. It will aid the lower tier in learning to play the game properly and why this stuff is important.

I can see the nightmare that is caused by people refusing to flex and not knowing how to play other heroes. I see it in my games all the time, the fact that people will not swap is why so many people are shouting for role queue. The game is over 3 years old and this is still a thing, you have not purposed any solutions you just keep ranting on about how people should flex, people do not flex, and you can really only expect people to be good at so many heroes. Look at the game the way they advertise it - pros barely flex; but average gamer with a fraction of the playtime should be able to?

People have lives you’re one of those people that sound kind of like they treat OW like their job. I have a job, I have a family (kid on the way) and things to do in life aside from OW. I cannot dedicate 12 hours a day to playing a video game.

It’s not a flawed comparison at all, there are plenty of competitive leagues out there where you signup as a position you want to play and teams are created based off this information. If I sign up for pickup volleyball we don’t all come together and discuss who’s going to set, play power hitter etc. That’s all known when you come together as a group - that organization has been done for you. If I as a power hitter have to play setter, middle or any other position my team is going to wonder why I showed up to a competitive league unable to understand the basics of the position I’m playing.

I have never in over 20 years of playing competitive sports had a team come together and discuss who was going to fill what position, ever never ever. You’re talking about some sort of pickup game that’s going on at the neighbourhood court (which is NOT competitive), or on a beach court or something.

I have been working on this, but also found it to be problematic as a lot of people don’t play really regularly. So you add people to friends and then you don’t see them for 2+ weeks.

I also use LFG, but it’s not always populated.

Stop assuming everyone is just some clown who’s refusing to work with their team. I try every damn game to be the fella bringing my team together and encouraging people stop fighting and focus on the gameplay. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

But getting a group of too many people all of which want to play the same role, rarely ever results in a positive gaming experience. There’s too much ego and too little maturity for this to occur as a regular thing.

You literally answered yourself.
Player problem? Player solution … oh wait, there are tools to make premades with people you know are willing to play X roles!

What a time to be alive! … yeah use them :wink:

Pointless argument then.
They usually duo or 3 stack mate. Those who solo queue know what they are going into. Again, pointless.

Oh I agree with you and never said it was impossible, what i said was:
"So with your comments you are basically saying “ I want a game that adapts to my preferences of playing it ”, and sorry to bust your bubble but the players are the ones that are supposed to adapt to the game, not otherwise".

My point still stays strong and unrefuted.

Happens when you are expecting a system to use basically some algorithm that is closer to a magical insight with perfect accuracy and knowledge about player’s feelings and behaviours to make a group :rofl:

Dude, just use the LFG and get a proper friend list. The tools are there, use them. Its really just that simple.

You are beyond help.
There is an easy fix for a problem and you are against it because “the players are at fault”? xD

Also LFG is dead and you are more likely to get matched against well coordinated teammates who are playing together on a regular base.
Even Blizzard acknowledged this problem.

Friend list isn’t a solution either.
Most of my friends have a much higher or lower SR and even though my friendlist isn’t that small there are rarely enough people online to built a balanced 6 stack. Also it is way more complicated and time consuming than a simple role queue.

If you can’t fix the players you have to fix the game.
Another thing that Blizzard acknowledged:

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Im sorry my facts refute your points i guess.

Blizzard acknowledges a lot of things mate, they never claimed to be 100% their issue … mostly because its not. Like I said, at best its 50/50.

Since you like official statements, check the Emongg interview with Jeff. And have a laugh with me.

Which facts?
All you are doing is blaming the player base for not playing the game right and not investing hundreds of hours into learning to play every hero on the same skill level.

Sure. If everyone would be equally skilled with every hero and willing to play every single one of them that would work out. But that is simply a Utopia that is never going to happen and offering this as a solution isn’t going to help anyone.

Should i make a 2000 word essay with them again or should you scroll up?
Again, you are asking someone to do your work for you :rofl:

All you are doing is blaming the system for not catering to EVERY SINGLE preference of EVERY SINGLE ONE of the millions of players OW has across all ranges ?
Do you REALLY think thats a reasonable request? Or asking people to actually be able to flex a bit more will maybe, JUST MAYBE “solve” that “issue” you claim is 100% OW fault?

The problem is that my “utopia” requires a bit of effort, like using LFG and actually talking and adding people from your comp games and be friendly to group up. Yours puts ALL THE WEIGHT and the work on an algorithm that basically takes every human behaviour, intention, skill level, and a gazillion of more things to make perfect games.

Even if your utopia happens (which is not) i guarantee you 100%, that the system is going to be fair for some and others will still rage and blame it for their loss.

Ok mate. You win.
Im out. Tired of arguing the same thing over and over.

If fun is subjective and you claim the system is actually catering to peoples needs, why is this game going downhill then? This “oh thats subjective and its your own view” stupidity needs to stop man, open your eyes. You think Blizzard expects every player to have adequate skill to play all 29 heroes at their rank? Ofcourse not dude, they want you to at least be able to play 2-3 heroes from every category in order to be a flexible player when its needed.

The system does not take into consideration what people actually play, it just uses SR which is partly correct but still needs to consider whether a player is a flex or not.

Most people use 2-3 heroes when playing ranked, often from the same category. The reality is the playerbase has turned to Maining because flexing numbs your skill set. Your brain gets better at something the longer you spend time on it. Switching from one hero to the other constantly hinders you as a player to fully be able to reach your potential on a certain hero. Also it was proven with SR gains that performing well on one hero was more beneficial than flexing to cater to your teams needs and they fixed it.

Blizzards teamwork/flexing concept is never going to work for SOLO players because people are STUBBORN and have huge EGOS, thats just how humans are. Even Jeff admitted yesterday to a post on here that they tested a mode called “411” and it was anti fun as the moment the 1 tank or 1 healer died it was pretty much game over for that team.

Im actually to the point that I dont even care anymore, the game is just too chaotic. All 15 of my irl friends quit and im the only one left.

Here is what role queue will do:

Decrease the randomness between games by making sure that you have people that can play every role.

So many games are lost when you hit that play button because you get too many supports, too many DPS, or too many tanks or lack of any of those roles. So many games are over before they start.

Is role queue a magic solution that will make us all fart rainbows, make people not be toxic, and make every game good? Of course not. But, decreasing the terrible random variation between the games is good and it will probably make the level of competition higher.

They might not, but the matchmaker they built assumes you can.

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Exactly, on paper OW sounds like the most amazing fun game. In reality? Far from it.

Since nearly all those millions of players basically want the same 2 things:

  1. play the role/hero they prefer
  2. still get a viable team comp

Yes, it is a very reasonable request.

And while a lot more flexing WOULD solve the problem of broken team comps, it will still leave people to play heroes/roles they simply do not want to play while taking a lot of effort from players, who simply want to log into the game and start playing asap instead of spending 20 minutes to create a 6 stack that will most likely fall apart after 2-3 games or learning to play heroes they don’t enjoy.

A solution that takes the fun from playing a game for a huge part of the player base is never going to work and you can see that this is indeed a fact by simply logging into the game and playing 2 or 3 rounds of Quick Play or Competitive.

In Quick Play people will simply lock in whatever they want and in Competitive people will flame each other for their poor performance and THEN pick whatever they want, after round 1 turned into a complete disaster because 3 DPS players actually DID flex but ended up with a poor performance, because they are unmotivated and playing a role that they are simply not that good with.

What? I literally stated the opposite, that the current MMR system does not look f… ok dude.

No mate … no.
You are saying 1 factor, there are multiple factors.
The more factors you introduce in an algorithm, it becomes EXPONENTIALLY more complex to do and the work that it takes is just to cover a player issu …

Nah. Can’t do this anymore.
Its just repeating my own posts. The answers are literally in all my posts here.

Ok dude, have a good one out there.
I understand its not your cup of tea anymore because of how MMR system works. Fair reason to leave the game.

I know i sound sarcastic when i say things but im not this time.

Its not, but it will literally take me like a 30min conversation on Discord and 10-12 links of developer comments, videos to explain it so, take it as a win if you want :+1:

So why introduce a game based on Flexing if you cant deliver a system that promotes it? I know its complex and I agree it would take time but leaving it to the goodwill of people will never work. The Online gaming mentality in general is the equivalent of kids not eating their veggies, they dont want to unless you take their dessert away or let them starve.

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But it is THE solution.

Unfortunately, as you mentioned it just IS NOT going to happen, because you can’t fix selfishness, casualness, or just not giving a damn. You can’t fix people. They will do what they please regardless, and for some, if they can’t do precisely what they please, they aren’t interested.

Therefore, problem will consistently remain until the masses all attain a messiah like level of selflessness.

I personally feel I can play like, 23 out of the 29 to my mediocre gold/low plat level. Obviously I have 1-2 in each role that I am stronger with than the rest. But I can play nearly everyone.

In fact, there’s noone I can’t play. I’m just a bad Doomfist or Tracer, and a pretty poor Genji.

I agree totally. Having a pre-made group of people you know or at the very least trust to perform as well as they can putting you at a disadvantage is absolute foolishness in a team based game.

Why Blizzard can’t see this and stop catering to people who que solo often with no regard to playing as a team is frankly beyond me.

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Role Queue wouldn’t immediatly fix all of Overwatch, the human factor will always be there… throwers will always exist.
But Role Queue has the potential to take the unorganised Mess that Matches are right now and give it at least some structure.
I mean… Now you quite frequently have to deal with people unwilling to play Tank and/or Supports off the bat and just count on someone on their team giving in… if each match you get guaranteed has someone playing a tank or a healer and likely having these people in the match WANTING to play them or even just willing to do so, would already improve the play expierence.
“Who’s gonna be main/off Tank/Support?” instead of “YOU SWITCH I PICKED DPS FIRST!”
And as to playing Poorly… someone freely willing to play a different role is more likely to be open to learn it rather than someone “forced” to play it. There will always be people not 100% confident in the role they have but them improving on it is more likely then the “I’ll queue up again and just insta-lock my main role and keep it no matter what” folk

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^This guy gets it.
I strongly feel that every OW player needs some basic competency with a few heroes from each class. At present (whether intended or not), we have a system that benefits “maining” a chara in the lower brackets due to performance based SR, and by the time they reach like Diamond etc… they are probably gonna keep maining because they neglected development on their other roles.

Imagine now if SR gains were incentivised by you playing a wide pool of heroes? Sure… my skillset would be spread out and i won’t be as specialised vs someone on my level who mains. HOWEVER, the mains on my level would likewise be of a higher calibre in order to reach the same level as flex players.

Also, i don’t get what’s this whole fuss about “OH NO WE’D BE MATCHED WITH OTHER TEAMS WITH BETTER TEAMWORK”…
From how i see it, this whole game is designed for teamwork and coordination. It’s something you might’ve experienced from time to time when the whole team works in sync together. Keep in mind that “Blizzard’s initial idea for competitive mode were to limit play to six-on-six matches where players had formed their own teams outside of normal matchmaking”. This was rejected by the playerbase that was in favour of a solo-queue system.

Theoretically, a Role queue is possible. What if we just forced everyone to join an LFG before they are allowed to be queued into a match? Would you like that?

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I think the idea is that they want to limit the amount of losses that they feel are unavoidable due to their team getting filled with too many Damage/Tank/Support players.

As for all the points you listed, none of this can be controlled. The people on your team are about as good/bad as you +- arbitrary skill points. You can’t control how good they are (and attempting to do so will probably tilt them/you) so just do your best and think about what you can do better (picture a thumbs up sign, dunno how to do the fancy things)

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