She’s literally only doing more damage than support heroes, not counting Zen.
Plus she has ALWAYS healed this much, she hasn’t had a huge boost to her healing since August 2018
Like on average she heals 13k
There are 16 heroes on average doing more than that.
Now there are FOUR of those people per team who are able to do that.
Of course Moira is meta anyways; You can’t play Ana/ Baptiste because of Sigma/ Doomfist, Zen’s major strength is null with the barriers, Mercy doesn’t heal enough. That leaves you Moira, Brig, and Lucio. Not many people are use to the new brig, so there ya go
9k damage, 24 elims. 4 e/d ratio is ridiculous for a low skill support.
baptiste does 5k damage 12 elims, and he has to actually aim his weapon and has no mobility/escape. his only utility is on an ult length cool down.
I could do 10 damage to someone across the map as D.va, and be rewarded with an elim.
Solo kills and Final blows paint a much better picture; since you KNOW that those were either done fully by the person, or at least with enough evidence that they were alone. Moira is at the bottom for those, because her damage comes from trash damage that might get an elim point because she hit them for 20 damage trying to gain healing resource
Also Baptiste’s numbers are lower in terms of elims, because he literally doesn’t NEED to shoot people to do his primary job of healing. He doesn’t need to shoot people to reload.
Of course his utlility is on 20 seconds, it literally negates people dying? Like he has the second highest healing, and an ability that blocks death, yet Moira who does less DPS than Sombra is the “op” one?
They need to start making heroes with skills that works as utilities, it’s the only way to balance everything.
They keep busting out new heroes with very gimmicky skills and without fail, it either throws off the entire game or is outright useless until tweaked and is actually sleeper OP.
The only hero that was perfectly balanced on their initial release was Ashe, even with the buff to her reload speed she’s still pretty balanced, albeit completely outshined by other heroes.
People need to realize that Moira damage is trash damage, and a decent chunk of the time its actually detrimental for the Moira herself to do it. Out of that 9k famage you list, very little of it actually secures kills, it mostly just gives the opposing healers ult charge because its so easy to heal through. I LOVE when enemy Moiras chuck their damage orb through my team on our approach. I get to spritz my team with a tap of left click and get 10-15% of my coalescence for free.
Brigitte was a lot like 1.0 Valk Mercy. The kit itself was very strong. Brigitte herself could be inserted into any comp and perform well on her own. She was inserted into Dive comps because she independently could do well and stop dive.
Mercy was the same way. Her kit was so strong it didn’t matter what comp she was in. This in no way means they synergize with the comp.
This is part of the reason why GOATS wasn’t discovered yet. Because Brig wasn’t being inserted into comps she was designed for and people didn’t realize how strong her inspire ability was in a brawl style comp.
Brigitte is not designed for Dive. Just because she was used in it, doesn’t mean she does well in it. As a support she fails in providing much utility for Dive, unlike Mercy, Lucio, and Zen. As a dps, she fails spectacularly because she cannot keep up with her team to provide meaningful and consistent damage.
Except that was absolutely NOT the thought at the time.
At the time, Brigitte was thought by everyone to be trash in anything but a 3-support comp. So she was fit into Dive not only because of the reasons I stated above but because she could do a similar job to Tracer at a fraction of the risk.
I think we’re not really on the same page here. So let me try to explain this a different way.
Remember what you said before, about how Mercy 2.0 being so broken that she was going to be used no matter WHAT meta was at the top? This can also be true of the metas themselves. Through its life, Dive went through every single support in the roster and like a third of the DPS. McCree definitely isn’t built for a Dive Comp either, but he was the DPS of choice for a while and even after being supplanted by Widow was still a decent pick in it.
Same with GOATS. Brigitte helped evolve GOATS from Slambulance by replacing Roadhog, but as she became more and more nerfed, she became less and less essential in the comp. We started seeing GOATS variations where she was replaced by Moira, Ana and Baptiste. And right before Bunker took over, Brigitte was almost unheard of on ladder.
So, my point is: your argument of Brigitte “not being designed for Dive” doesn’t matter. Like Triple Tank before it and GOATS after, Dive was SUCH a dominant comp that it absorbed everything–even characters who on paper weren’t designed for it or were designed to counter it. Another example was Zenyatta and Ana–they were both picked to counter GOATS (with Discord orb for melting Tanks and anti-heal to stop the heal-stacking) but they instead became part of it.
Like I said when I first stated that Brigitte was part of Dive:
Did you really just compare the jobs of Tracer and Brigitte? She did not do Tracer’s job at a fraction of the risk. She was inserted into Dive because she stopped almost every single member especially Tracer. Brig never harassed the back line and never dived with her team
Your way of thinking about metas is interesting but it has flaws. You simply can’t think of Mercy 2.0 as the same as comparing an entire meta. It doesn’t work that way.
Your thinking of the Dive era, not the dive comp. Dive comp referred to the standard composition used to run it. The dive era is everything that was played when Dive was dominant.
Just because some heroes were played during that era, it did not mean they were part of the comp or meta. every hero in this game is designed to be played a certain way in order to optimize their effectiveness.
I’m not arguing Brig wasn’t played in Dive or that she cant do well in it but her kit is not designed to optimally perform well in it
If you were running a standard bunker and were going up against a Widow who was frustrating your team, you might see someone just switch to Winston to handle the Widow. This doesn’t mean that Winston is part of the bunker comp
Before Orisa, the only way to have consistent barriers was to play a dude that couldn’t really attack while shielding. Orisa changed that and let you bunker into a spot with suppressive fire. Now they’ve added a burst damage shield hero so now two shield tanks can spam you with damage and safety.
It’s just too strong and there’s no way to fix it. Nerfing each one only makes them rely on each other more.
I just don’t see how a severe Moira nerf would change double barrier. Just run Mercy Lucio and it’s probably enough and wouldn’t change barrier watch.
To me the answer would be more anti barrier things. Symmetra’s old orbs are a good example. I think some heroes should be specialized in combatting barriers without having the need to break them
The point of the “comparison” was that Brigitte was capable of doing decent damage and disrupting a team while also being a strong counter to Dive in general. Don’t know how you skipped over that and just skipped to “OMG yOu JuSt CoMpArEd TrAcEr AnD BrIg LoL”.
Semantics. Dive era is basically just a time period in which Dive comp was refined to such a degree that it was unstoppable.
I give up. You are free to think this if you want, but I don’t see any meaningful difference between “This character was a strong pick in this comp” and “This character was used in the comp”.
Again, I give up.
Winston wasn’t “optimal” during GOATS either, but DOATS was an acceptable niche variation. I don’t consider the difference meaningful.
I’d say to introduce a Tank who can easily disintegrate shields. But it has to be directly related to shield-busting. They specifically said that his shield-busting ability is the reason they buffed Roadhog’s ammo in the last patch, but the problem is that Roadhog does it by damage, which Blizzard doesn’t want to buff outright because any damage that works against barriers works even better against characters.
A Tank that can damage barriers but nothing else would be best because if it’s a DPS or suport, then you can just run them WITH double shield, just like you had Sombra running WITH GOATS.
Or, you know, they could just fix Hammond. Who was literally designed to fight this kind of comp.
I didn’t skip over any kind of information regarding Tracer and Brig. You directly compared the two with no explanation other than she did tracer’s job more effectively. You make the comparison seem black and white. Swapping one hero for another doesn’t mean that the hero was swapped because another did their job better. That’s a narrow-minded and myopic way of viewing it.
I’m going to use the same criticism you used for disregarding my Winston comparison that you did for your Tracer one. In many of your posts here, you keep making the assumptions that ‘x hero’ was part of the comp because they were used a couple times to counter something. That’s the issue I have.
Let’s say your team wants to run a dive comp. you don’t choose Brig because she gives nothing to support the comp. you would choose her to COUNTER dive.
The main thing I’m arguing here is that Brig IS NOT a dive hero. And that’s what I feel you’re not understanding from me and you’ve done nothing to address that. I don’t care what she does against a particular comp. I care what she does FOR a comp.
Again, this is getting hung up on semantics. We can say that Brigitte made Tracer in general obsolete because Brigitte’s damage was far more consistent and reliable than Tracer’s. Tracer’s value was being able to pick a squishy character extremely quickly, which was something Brigitte could easily do with less risk, since she had a nigh-guaranteed 155 Damage combo.
WHAT?!?!?!
Brigitte was not used “a couple of times in Dive”. From her release until the end of OWL Season 1, Dive+Brigitte was literally the most dominant comp in the game. Again, I posted the team composition numbers in this forum. You’re strawmanning if you think my argument is “she was used a couple of times”. It was literally THE dominant comp of post-Stage 4 OWL.
Again, semantics. It doesn’t matter if she’s “not a dive hero”. Neither is McCree, but he was still the DPS of choice to run in Dive until he was supplanted by Widow. Likewise, Sombra is not a “GOATS hero”. She doesn’t have high health or any form of sustain, which is the epitome of what makes a “GOATS” hero. She was run in GOATS to counter it, but that only created a variation of GOATS called “Sombra GOATS”.
I don’t get why you think there’s this neat label where a character is a “Dive hero” and a “Deathball” hero which can’t ever be broken. Again, there is a WEALTH of examples of characters who were intended to be counters to a comp instead being used IN that comp. This is my entire point, and saying “But they’re not an X hero” does not change that fact.
Then by your definition, these comps do not exist.
I’m confused, you say that there’s no such thing as a dive hero or deathball, etc. but at the same time you’re saying GOATS AND dive comp. if the heroes don’t define the comp for you, then what does.
And apologies, my use of the phrase a “couple of games“ was misleading. I wasn’t referring to your example of Brig. I’m speaking in general. More so your McCree example.
To me what defines a comp is what each hero brings to the comp. what strengths do they have supplement the comp?
Regarding Sombra GOATS, I feel that Sombra is the exception in the game because theoretically, she can shut down any comp because of how she’s designed.
I feel as though we’re arguing about two different things lol but I just simply took issue when you say that Brigitte is good in Dive, which I don’t believe. Her skillset and strengths are hindered in dive and dive is hindered by her. Again, I would like to know what she does FOR Dive, not against it. Forget all we’ve said and just answer the question because if I’m missing point about that, I would very much like to know
This is what’s referred to as a “Loki’s Wager”: an argument that something with multiple parts or degrees can only exist in two states: complete or not at all. For example, arguing that because there’s no defined point at which a shaved face becomes a beard, then stubble cannot exist.
“Dive” and “Deathball” are descriptors. It describes ways the character has been played. It is not a prescriptive term in which the character can be ONLY this, no exceptions.
It’s like saying “Brigitte isn’t a Slambulance hero, she’s a GOATS hero” when the only difference is that GOATS is Slambulance + Brigitte (and later Zen instead of Moira).
I never said this at all. I said she was used IN Dive. That doesn’t mean she was the most optimal character for it. I even said later on that she was used largely because OWL players didn’t want to spend the time relearning a new comp instead of Dive. It would have taken too long and come with too many risks.
That’s the entire point. Once again: most characters who are used to counter a dominant comp are instead used IN that dominant comp.