Cost of balance was fun and enjoyment. And game is better, when heroes like Brig work everywhere, not just in some very specific circumstances.
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Balancing around the 1% means those who play at a lower skill levels have their heroes they love neutered. Brig and Orisa are garbage in metal ranks and itās a shame no one cares.
This is a competitive game. Balance is priority. Had this not been a competitive game, it wouldāve been different and probably more fun to be honest. Like a lot more. But it isnāt. Brig should not have been able to 1v1 tanks to begin with
Because balancing around low elo is a recipe recipes disaster. This is what people donāt take away. If they were to balance around being āFunā they would have to balance around the idea that if everything is broken nothing is, something that does not work in a competitive environment. Balance is more important than Fun, had this game never had a competitive mode, this would be different. But thatās not the case. So balance is center stage
Yes, she is, good pickrate across all tiers and a positive winrate, she is fine.
Back then you also saw a difference between burst heals and total throughput, but today theyāre basically synonymous.
This is the direct result of there being an increasingly tiny window where heal levels were neither overpowered or insufficient. Ana was just adjusted to fit in this space. To widen that window there needs to be more variance in both the intended and empirical survivability of viable team comps.
When making plays, if two characters are consistent, they may struggle to get enough value. If theyāre both inconsistent, they may not synchronize to full optimality, even at the highest levels. This is why you see synergies usually have one inconsistent character and one consistent character.
True to some extent, but it was mostly AoE heal creep. Right now AoE heals will easily outdo beam juggling and also typically free the user to do other things. We could just make Mercyās beam stronger to make up for it, but between current burst heals and AoE heals, there isnāt much of a niche left for single target heals except to (soft) pocket something and operate at a different position than the rest of the team.
Being a main healer doesnāt inherently make juggling better, even if it is one of the necessary components. Youād probably have to make it necessary through mechanics or external factors like the amount of damage being thrown around.
Sorry dude. If he said heās wrong because plays on console that is a counter-argument and an opinion. Iām not into arguing definitions.
It helps a lot. Yes, overbuff/leaderboard data can give you an idea about the current meta and balance but an idea is all it can do. The data is very flawed in a lot of ways. That said, there is a huge amount of information of data you canāt get from overbuff, and sorry to say without playing the game, you canāt have a good grasp of balance vs someone that doesnāt. That said, I use both and understand the flaws in both. As with the streamer part, I think thatās an issue your projecting on to me.
Their opinion can be good but also could be extremely bais and on top of this having a controversial opinion will actually get more views and make their money. Any normal person knows this and understands how to take their opinion in context. That way you can get useful information from it. I think you forget their entertainers first and read more into what they say. (based on your 2 vids)
Personally, I stopped arguing with you because you seem to care more about your ego than a solid argument and you were saying things that were illogical.
Like with this thing you highlighted with me. In the video, you wanna spend so much time explaining how you got to GM to support your argument and how pointless rank/playtime. When I call out FFirebrandd for doing that thing you defend him saying itās not an argument, itās clear you donāt even care about the arguments you make.
Either way, I really have made my point. Iām not too fussed if you agree or not (well Iād be stupid to think youād agree with how one-sided you are). That said, let me highlight why youāll achieve nothing with all this but outside of stroking your own ego by quoting something you said in the second video.
āI was 14 and writing more eloquently and comprehensively than developers themselvesā
First, if you want to change maybe donāt insult those that you want to convince. Secondly, If you need 24 pages to put an argument across that isnāt eloquent in any way. Sure Iāll give you were more comprehensive about expressing your opinion but how much of that is wasted information? Wanna know, why devs donāt make 24-page posts, because they keep to context and talk purely about the topic and the game and donāt fill their posts with soft insults to streamers and devs.
If a dev made a 24-page post explaining the balance of mercy, they would be told to stop wasting their time on the forums.
PS. If you think you can write better than everyone in a professional environment at 14 itās delusional unless you have some kind of degree at writing or published work at 14? it also shows how much you value your ego over the content.
Also, I donāt think there is anything wrong with you making big posts outside the important information could be lost but donāt use your page/word count to insult people.
If I just wanted to show how little you understand everything and move I could of just done this when you said.
First statement shows how little you understand the game.
If people have to counter ult and ult. It means it has a lot value. (The any ult isnāt true but I wasnāt gonna go into that cause Iām sure you were just being emotional there)
Second, you think nad has more impact once youāve lost an ally than valkā¦ ok. Most people know thatās wrong and itās such a one-sided statement it clear you care more about proving Ana > Mercy to the point youāll lie. You do understand you can make that argument without lying? I could and it would be pretty solid.
Anyway, good luck with stroking your ego or to vent. Itās pretty clear you donāt want change with how onesided you are, how you insult dev, how you rather talk about your rank than the issue.
Iāll add, my goal isnāt anything pure either I just enjoy a good debate (even though this isnāt really a good one cause how fast it went to insults and lies). That said my original intention was just to give some feedback but you wanted to be right so you explained in flawed detail why I was wrong and I love a debate!
Speak for yourself, I would personally read the hell out of it.
You are telling a top 500 player that they donāt understand the gameā¦
Let that sink in for a momentā¦ I think they have well proven that they do understand the game.
Anyway, analysts work off stats all the time, they are WAY better than anecdotal stuff.
And Titanium does both. Understands the stats, and plays at the highest level of play. When they talk, I for one will listen.
??? You can say, force out ults. That is value. if it leads to your next fight being won, it had value surely.
If you gave the enemy team less ult, that is value.
If you get your team back into the fight faster afterwards, that is value.
If you stopped some of the enemy team getting into a fight afterwards, that is also value.
Like, there is a reason, people are puppy pileing you on this one. You just are not getting this right.
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This I can admit Iām wrong on. As written you are right. My point was in the context of each fight and I worded it badly. If you wanna put that in the context of a game yep 100% wrong. I should have written itā¦
Every action in the game that was used in a game doesnāt get value but when used they do and only measuring it based on when itās active is the best way to measure value.
Top 500 thingā¦ I donāt care Iām talking about the context of his statement. If you wanna say his statement is better cause heās top 500 cool. Iāll just say heās top 500 on 1 hero out of 20+ and itās flawed. Personally, I donāt need or care about that form of logic, I retorted with it because someone else sunk to that level and highlight how little he cared about building a logical arguement.
Very debatable.
First and foremost, if games are not made with the intent of being fun, then they would just rot in the shelves. The best games are called classics and so because they are fun on fundamental levels. And this is still as important for comp games.
Before anyone should start to think about balance, they have to think about how fun something is and if itās fair (Fair ā Balance).
Im just looking at Smash Bros, in which the āif everything is broken nothing isā, works insanly well. Every Fighter is 100% fun to play and you can out play everything with everything, which means itās fair. The only issue here is balance, but the Dev team can mostly ignore that since the game is fun and fair nonetheless.
And we are talking about a game with a very active and skilled comp scene here too.
I agree that they should not listen to lower level players if it comes to balanceā¦ But if itās about the Char being fun or fair, these 99% of the player base are the most important feedback source.
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I donāt believe in fairness in PvP, as my playstyle usually based on using āunfair tacticsā: using teammates as meatshields, being stealthy and evasive, sneaking into enemyās position for surprise attacks and avoiding direct engagements.
Issue in Overwatch is in attempts to let only specific role use such āunfair tacticsā and punishing other roles for it.
Targeting supports, for instance, is unfair tactic - no one usually turns around to protect them, and they canāt simply stop supporting their team without risk of front line collapsing. But we got multiple heroes, that are designed just for that.
Sustain stacking is another unfair tactic - you unfairly make player win, even while one got zero capability to win on their own, by massively overbuffing their defense. Yet itās suddenly a problem. Even while it allows to make game fair and fun for someone, who doesnāt have enough skill to survive otherwise.
Itās a good thing I wasnāt ever talking about balance then, isnāt it?
You legit said mercy is stronger on PC. Thatās balance, my friend. Just to keep you derailing about balance.
You callouted someoneās experience to devalue there point while you havenāt played in 2 years.
More quotes of you talking about balance in the same discussion ā¦
You replied to this as wellā¦
So yea wanna lie again go for it.
This āhugeā amount of data youāre referring to isnāt huge at all. The only real data you can get from playing the game is your own data. Aka, your personal experience.
Why do you think we mostly use Overbuff to gauge how balanced the game is? Because the sample size is big enough for us to generalise to the entire Overwatch playerbase. Meanwhile, you canāt do that with just your personal experience.
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Ok, Iāll admit I forgot that I made those two off hand comments. Most of what Iāve said in this thread has nothing to do with balance. That is in fact an accurate statement.
Wasnāt the point of this argument because of forum users that say āBut whatās your rankā or "In (insert rank here) people donāt know how to play the game) or āBut the game is balanced around the ā5%āā.
Their point was probably to say look I know how to play the game and the hero Iām in this high rank. If they didnāt include that in their video theyād get asked for their rank in the replies regardless or get ranked shamed if the person wants to assume theyāre āhardstuckā.
See (not to be that person because I personally canāt care less about ranks) but when people make arguments like this one they usually get bombarded with ābut what rank are you, I bet youāre in goldā and then they proceed to explain how they play the game at their elo.
Iām not saying everyone should just throw their ranks in when they talk balance, but Iām saying thatās why I mainly stay out of the balance discussions most of the time (because it becomes a measuring contest really fast).
Basically this argument is flawed out of the forums context but when you put it in context you can clearly understand why said argument is made.
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Iām not saying over buff vs my personal data. Iām saying using both is better than using one. The reason you canāt use over buff to judge the balance of the game is solely because you canāt capture the context in averages.
A basic example is how winrate can get inflated by niche heroes because people switch off or on these heroes when they good/bad.
Another thing is the context of player synergy for example bap Lucio winrate may increase as rein is buffed it doesnāt mean bap is OP.
You really need player experience for this or at least watch a lot of overwatch.
Sorry to burst your bubble Titanium, but I think Mercy is fine at the moment and I think most people would agree with me on that.
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If thatās what youāre saying, then this makes no sense:
In your first sentence, you essentially say that both can exist on their own and be valuable (which I pretty much disagree with when it comes to personal experience but whatever) but then you say Overbuff stats need personal experience to be useful.
You can 100% gauge how balanced the game is by looking at Overbuff alone. Especially if youāve played Overwatch before. It would be a different story if the person in question never played the game whatsoever but they clearly did play it enough to comment on the balance. At that point, who cares if they didnāt play for 2 years?
They still have stats to go by, donāt they?
Well I agree with this but not for the reason you think.
Winrate is an incredibly poor metric to determine balance. As Titanium explains well:
This however does not make Overbuff suddenly useless if you donāt play the game regularly. For instance, when Mercyās rework was launched you defo didnāt need to play the game to see how OP Mercy was.
You couldāve either just took a glance at her new kit in the patchnotes or you wouldāve just went to Overbuff and saw her pickrate skyrocket and stay close to 100% for months.
Yep, I totally donāt care about winrate. If their pickrates were high enough to say they were in META though, Iād argue that either theyāre slightly overpowered or other heroes are too underpowered.
To determine the above all Iād do is look at the patch notes.
You donāt need any personal experience to watch gameplay now do you?
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I stand by both statements.
āThe reason you canāt use over buff to judge the balance of the game is sole that you canāt capture the context in averages.ā
and
āIām not saying over buff vs my personal data. Iām saying using both is better than using one.ā
And Iād disagree withā¦
You can 100% gauge how balanced the game is by looking at Overbuff alone. (Iāll ignore the 100% cause no person can gauge the balance of the game 100%. The proof is how OWL teams have changed metas without patches which could have never been predicted)
As an idea on the whole potentially but as soon as you get to hero balance without understanding the context you canāt tell if a hero is powerful or not (unless theyāre broken ofc).
For example, yes a maxed-out pick rate can show a hero is meta but does not show how overpowered/balanced they are because of hero synergy.