And I respectfully think your opinion is dumb.
Yours is dumber. I love plans, that work with idiot teammates - itâs default state. If you got smart one, then you can invent something more complex.
Though so far, pocketing is how it ends. Basically, you rely on smart teammate, since you lost tools to make stupid ones work. Resurrecting smart one together with stupid ones also gave smart player needed distraction to make clean getaway, now itâs more tricky.
RightâŚ
Whatâs the point of inventing complex plan, that no one would follow anyway? You can expect teammate to run forward in general direction of enemy and shoot in general direction of enemy. Expecting one to hit those shots and not just run in straight line, but actively dodge, already demands someone more competent.
This is legit one of the best things I have seen! 
This is great, and I love that you have done this.
4 Likes
Shouldnât every character have an idiot teammate proof ability then? Something that canât be punished and has the same impact as MR? Surely as a DPS or tank you also get idiot teammates.
Yes. I am surprised, that itâs not the case yet, as itâs how games end up a disaster. Unless it was some kind of plan to make players toxic to each other, which I doubt can be intentional.
So you want OW to be a solo carry game?
Yes, as it would finally fix whole âit takes 6 players to win game, but just 1 to ruin everythingâ.
Players can be stupid, but it doesnât mean, that others should suffer, just because they were unlucky enough to be on same team with stupid player.
Interesting.
Itâs why games with larger teams work better, as you got plenty of spare players, should one expected to perform certain task fail or pick incorrect solution. Ideally, you got multiple players on each task, that try different ways to solve it, so you donât end up dumping resources into approach, that doesnât work.
Yeah this would be a thing regardless-triple tank was a thing after all.
But if it was going to be GOATS as we know it, hard to say.
While I could see MR Mercy being picked I donât think it would have been often since the main thing that really hindered her was the lack of mid-push potential.
Might have been more trouble to âkeep the Mercy aliveâ rather than âspam Q the fastest â
Still better, than lack of mid-push AND end-push at the same time.
Valkyrie is weird ult, as itâs designed specifically for âquick victoryâ scenario. So either your team quickly eliminates enemies with damage boost and you win, or everything goes wrong and your team dies.
Not sure, what was point of designing ult around scenario, when everything goes smoothly. Which you wonât find in most regular games.
I would argue your choices on mercy do have agency being able to move quickly and save someone or enable a kill or rezzing someone. All these things would be impossible without you and most without mercy.
While I understand your counter point you canât do this without people. The fact remains these things canât happen without you and therefore is player agency.
I do understand why you donât like it, when you donât have a team that enables or you can enable, that you can eel useless. This is amplified when you one trick because you literally canât switch to a hero that will have more impact and this is the same for all support heroes and Iâd agrue other supports suffer more than mercy with this.
I would add, to say other supports just donât have this problem is a lie. Like yes you can go frag on zen or bap but you have to do that in context of your team. Without your team or doing in way that doesnât enable your team is gonna lose the team fight. Which like all supports is limited by the kit themselves.
My point is saying on x there kit is different is just a grass is always greener argument and itâs really falls apart when you consider no support can do what mercy does.
Either way, I donât disagree that mercy could use a rework so she feel like she has less team dependency. That said in the context of saying ana does x is so pointless and is just entitlement just play ana if you like her design.
Personally, I donât understand why you are so fixated on other heroes and building such one sided and out of context points rather than you know suggesting what good so you can compare it to what matters. Mercy in her current state.
For other Supports, it is much much less pronounced because most of them have abilities that they can get value out of regardless of their teammates or are set up in such a way that itâs better if your team uses them, but they arenât useless if they donât.
Take for example Anaâs sleep dart. Your teammateâs skill is largely a non factor in whether you can get value from it. Fragging with Baptiste or Zenyatta is a similar story. You donât necessarily need your teamâs help to get kills as those two if youâre good enough. Stuffing healing down your teammateâs throats as Moira also counts because even after all her nerfs she can still stuff a lot of healing. Even a potato of a teammate will take much longer to die while being force fed 3 digit healing numbers.
The other category contains abilities like Zenâs Discord or Lucioâs speed. Are they teamwide utilities? Yes absolutely. Can those heroes use their own utilities if they want/need to? Again, yes absolutely. Even if nobody moves when you amp up speed as Lucio, YOU can still do something with it. If nobody shoots your Discord target, YOU can still shoot them and get value out of Discord.
Now⌠how many abilities does Mercy have that fit into those categories? She has 2. Heal beam and Blaster. Does Mercy have any way to use Damage Boost even if her team is bad? No. No she does not. How about Resurrect? Again⌠no. It is far too dependent on where the corpse is and whether your team is willing to cover you. Guardian Angel? Nope, though that one at least merely requires them to exist somewhere useful so youâll get to use it even with potatoes. How about Valkyrie? Valkyrie is basically just small upgrades to all of what she can already do⌠so⌠basically no.
Then⌠letâs take a peek at Mercyâs two abilities that are actually independent of her teammates. Heal beam reliably heals 1 target at a rate of 55 HPS. Thatâs⌠not brilliant but not terrible. However⌠it rapidly starts looking pretty terrible because if sheâs doing that, she isnât doing anything else. A decent number of other supports have fire and forget abilities that heal more than that. Now⌠Mercyâs blaster. Honestly the blaster itself is not too shabby. 100 DPS is a bit low, but it clocks in above every support besides Zen and Baptiste. It also has the distinction of being the most forgiving weapon in the game that is capable of getting head shots and has a pretty beefy clip size too. The downside? It is behind almost the only weapon swap in the entire game, making it clunky at best to try to use. Also it has a less pronounced version of the same problem the Heal Beam does. If youâre Blastering, thatâs all youâre doing. Zen has better damage output than Mercy and is also healing somebody for 30 HPS AND boosting the teams damage vs 1 target by 25%.
Gee. I wonder why on earth people could possibly be complaining about Mercyâs ability to make plays. Itâs not like over half of her abilities are 100% dependent on teammates and not on her at all, and the only 2 that arenât are horribly hamstringed to be not good enough. /s
9 Likes
So if your team breaks a barrier so you can land a sleep on the rein is a non factor?
So if cree protects you from tracer so you canât have time to aim thatâs a non factor?
So if your the difference between you being 1 v 6 as when you land a sleep dart and your teaming being 6 v 6 is a non factor?
Dps will win most of the time 1v1 vs bap or zen when you playing against a player of equal skill. Proof here is comp deathmatch where you have 0 zens or baps in the top 500 why? Because their damage is all about using the team to open an angle or enable kills. Without your team there dps is useless. They either need dps or tanks to draw focus or your teamâs damage to enable kills.
Yep thatâs really is better than mercy who provides 90% of the healing moria does but can enable kills and actually climb into top 500. If you think moria pumping heals into tanks to feed enemy ults is more agency than pumping damage boost into a dps to enable kills and actually win games. Youâre grasping at straws and gaslighting the issue.
Yea lucio can self speed and zen can shoot his own discords. Can they win games not supporting the team and using them without support of the team? No, they cannot.
Can mercy use G.Angel to fly away from danger? Yes.
Can mercy pocket dps or tank so that they can protect her? Yes.
Can mercy hide and use her regen to heal? Yes.
Look you can argue the point all day that sometimes that cree wonât kill that tracer when you pocket him and that has nothing to do with mercy but if that is the best chance to win a fight and you do that every time in general YOU are making the best play and yea sometimes that doesnât work doesnât mean you arenât having any agency.
If you do that an infinite number of times vs mercy that doesnât guess what youâll be at a higher SR because of YOUR actions.
Just like how Ana healing is dependant on your team playing within line of sight.
Or like Playing Zen Discord and dmg when ball is constantly killing you and youâre not getting peel
Or like playing lucio with a bastion and orisa and using speed.
You do understand thatâs my point is yea mercy isnât the best pick all the time just like anyother support.
There are times rez is good like with snipers that are able to get 1-2 pick life in a safe rez spot.
2nd highest healing in the game.
Have no issue with that. My issue is the unbalanced argument. Like going on about baps dps who have lower dps than every none support hero in the game and thinking mercy needs a rework because of that. Itâs illogical and dumb.
Like I said, rather than bsing because your watched some smurf exploit matchmaking and frag out on a silver team, and going mercy canât do that!!! REWORK!!!. I think itâs better to suggest a rework and compare it to the current mercy.
This is moving the goalposts. FFirebrandd was talking about what value the ability gets once it lands.
Even at face value, your argument doesnât work because none of those things are required to land any ability. For example, Ana can move to an angle or high ground to sleep Rein despite his shield not being broken. She can also be in a safe location where Tracer canât threaten her. She can also choose NOT to use her sleep dart uselessly in a 1v6 situation.
Again, moving the goalposts. Ana controls her own positioning when she heals. Mercy cannot control where her teammate dies nor whether or not the area is safe for her to Rez. She can only choose to Rez or not to.
Again, a Zenyatta can play safer and make it more difficult for a Ball to Dive him.
Speed has inherent value. Your teammates do not choose whether or not they move faster. They automatically do so when Lucio has speed boost and is nearby.
6 Likes
Itâs not. If you want to ignore context Rez > Sleep dart. Itâs not that simple and Iâm discussing within context of the balance of the game. Saying you donât need a team get value out of sleep dart is just crazy.
As for your example, without your team. Youâll be scouted by someone and Rein will point his barrier at you cause there is nothing else to worry about. Also because your team isnât there making sound, the Rein can react to the sound of sleep dart and block it without the scouting.
So if a Ball dies on the other side of the map outside of line of sight.
In Ana case itâs cause she wasnât positioned to heal him.
In Mercys case itâs ball fault cause he died in a dumb place.
All supports are at the whims of the team. With a good team, they will try and enable them like people dieing in a good way for rez or covering rez. Or with a bad team theyâll play Hanzo and Widow and expect a moria to heal them or Phara Echo with a Bap Lucio. The difference is if you adapt to your team or project your problem.
Ofc you can but do you think that zen is gonna carry with elims or using discord with his team? Still wonât change itâs not possible to use your kit all of the time.
Just as dmg boost does. If you boost the bastion he does not choose whether or not he gets that boost. Mercy does.
You are wrong.
4 Likes
No, the issue is that you are using a Lokiâs Wager fallacy, which is the fallacious statement that if two things are even remotely similar, then they are exactly the same, although the âsimlaritiesâ can be so far apart in degrees that the comparison is meaningless.
Your argument ignores the amount of teamwork needed to get value out of Rez in comparison to Sleep. Rez requires so much team participation and opportunity that itâs not even remotely comparable. Sleep is much easier, much less risky, has immediate results, and has a direct affect on the enemy team. Rez has none of those things.
Again, this argument is defeated by the fact that Ana does not automatically get 'scouted" without her team. You are attempting to make the argument that A leads to B, when it does not. B may be a common outcome, but is not a guaranteed one.
Again, a fallacious argument. This ignores that Ana has the ability to position herself in a place where she has much, much greater range and field of vision to heal her team. Mercy is almost entirely limited by A) the range of her GA and B) the range of her beams.
To repeat what I said before, attempting to ignore the degrees in which something differs to say that they are exactly the same in a specific scenario is a textbook Lokiâs Wager.
Yes, Iâve seen Zens carry with elims and discord all the way up to GM. He has MUCH more agency over when he uses his kit than a Mercy does.
Again, Lokiâs Wager: ignoring the degrees in which two things are different to claim they are the same.
Incorrect. If Mercy damage boosts one teammate, then there are several factors that determine whether or not it has value:
- Is there an enemy within range or sight for her teammate to attack? If not, her damage boost may as well not exist.
- Did her teammate use an attack? If not, her damage boost may as well not exist.
- Did her teammate land an attack? If not, her damage boost may as well not exist.
- Did an enemy like D.Va or Sigma completely negate her teammateâs attack? If so, her damage boost may as well not exist.
So, in order for Mercyâs Damage boost to have any effect whatsoever, there must be an enemy for her teammate to shoot, her teammate has to actually shoot at them, they have to actually land their shot, and the enemy must not negate the shot.
In order for speed boost to have any effectâŚa teammate simply has to move. Even fi there is no enemy nearby, Lucioâs teammates can still move somewhere faster. Even if they do not shoot at an enemy, they can move somewhere faster. Even if they miss their shot, they can still move somewhere faster. And even if their shots are negated by enemy abilities, they are still moving faster.
The ONLY two things that stops Lucioâs speed boost from getting value is if the teammate simply does not move, or get caught in some sort of CC. And thatâs only one teammate. It will be extremely unlikely that nobody on Lucioâs team moves, or that ALL of them within his field are caught in CC.
4 Likes