The main problem with 6v6, and why it can't come back

General Discussion
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The ability for tanks to layer abilities in a way that removed nearly any and all built in weaknesses of each other, ultimately created a scenario where large chunks of the playable cast simply did not function in given meta.

As it inherently negated any effect of heroes purposely built to play into those weaknesses. For example in ye old OW1, Mei could force a d.va out of space in threat of a freeze. However in the Dive duo of winston/d.va the d.va would almost always be engaging under a winston bubble, which would break LOS of the beam simply moving in and out of dome.

This also removed any need for d.va to worry about cross fire from multiple directions. And Winston needing to worry about the likes reaper/hog/torb from entering the bubble, as the d.va would consistently be able to peel off the threat without issue via DM and the two layering damage with the rest of their team.

This sort of interaction between tanks is inherently what nearly every meta was built around. Usually forcing the investment of multiple ults just to break through a given sets advantages, Limiting most play in between to mostly just poke to gain said ults. As for most scenarios it was the only reliable way to break through a given comp.

Were the list of viable heroes simply broke down to who can sustain the meta comp, and who can set up the most reliable ult combo to get through such.

And this simply isn’t something balance patches could fix, as the issue existed in how theses characters interacted with each other. And not in say how strong a given ability was at the time.

That and any attempt to nerf the meta tank line, would in turn severally weaken those tanks in any context that was their meta parring. And in turn created a new issue in that players being parried with people that didn’t want play their matching hero or were not skilled enough on said hero to be effective. Doubly so when you take account that you also need to be aware in how those tanks actually play with each other, as much as how each of them function.

Creating many one sided games the moment players were placed into your que, simply because of different tank interests or god forbid them being mains of the same hero.

This in combination with the shrinking tank player base, is why 6v6 simply isn’t a viable mode. As the more heroes they add the smaller the design space for tanks and in some cases supports gets. Their just every more increasing interactions they simply can’t have in game without enabling another tank DUO that would cover each other’s weaknesses.

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I still figure, replace current Open Queue, with 6v6 Open Queue with a 2x Tank maximum.

Then let content creators do most the balancing. Make a spectacle of it.
Is it going to be scuffed? Yes! But it would be regardless.
But it would be great advertising, so maximize that.

But the other big benefit, is that if it’s set up that way, then it will drain a lot more DPS out of 5v5RQ than it does Tank players.

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Actually, 6v6 can come back.

Will it? Dunno.

I hope it does

But there is no “can’t” here

If Blizzard decides it will return, it will return, no matter how many forum members insist that it cant or wont

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Well since 6v6 and 5v5 don’t seem to work, I vote that we try something absurd like 8v8

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That’s the thing it is working, be it the funny part people seem to have issue with actually engaging with the intended weaknesses of their given hero.

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I mean part of the reason for the move away from 6v6 was that people found tank unfun to play. Now we’re again seeing that people find tank unfun to play. There really needs to be another shakeup with this game, whether it be through a team size change or some reworking of the role fundamentals.

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You are correct, but at the same time that was because tanks needed to be balanced around specific duos being to strong. And in doing so made them hard to play in anything outside of such.

which screws with a pull of random players with different taste in heroes, as you will common load into matches with competing hero picks that won’t meld well together.

That and issues with the amount of hard CC that was used to actually force openings around the tanks that have otherwise covered all their weaknesses.

TLDR their is a reason to this, and not just people didn’t like it “TM”

And thats we got 5v5. congrats.

That and well you really just need to change certain CC types like hack and hinder to just not completely shut down the role in question.

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That’s one thing, but people have grievances with the counter-swap roulette going on since it hits a lot harder when there’s only one tank on the field. I feel like that’s not something they can really change given how important taking down the tank is due to their power.

I still think it’s nuts that we’re 1.5 years after OW2 launch and 6v6 vs 5v5 is still so heavily divided. Which is why I think there needs to be an OW3-level hail mary, because we’re 11 seasons in and it’s clear that Blizzard isn’t gonna fix anything with their current approach.

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I find this funny because how the original game worked, and how we all played it prior to dive being a thing. Very similar to how say you play TF2 OW’s main gameplay inspiration.

Be it that for the most part this can be adjusted, and seems to be what the dev team is currently working on. But they are kind of cryptic about that. I would like to note that the 1-tricks tanks don’t seem to being having to much issues maintaining their M~top 500 status.

Like you can roll rien into an orisa, and just wait out things like Fortify with the barrier if saved for such. Then just charge at her to break off all her armor, or send her off the map.

But I digress.

Before this people were arguing over which meta was a better option to return to, open vs role ~ que, heck even if their should have been a separate comp que at all, and just have everyone by default be in QP.

Same old same old. It’s the most easiest to compare at the moment.

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I am definitely curious what Blizzard is cooking. I was blindsided by their announcement that they actually plan to address this drama.

As far as I am concerned, 6v6 had its problems. 5v5 has its problems. Nothing is unsalvageable.

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Eh for 6v6 that would be the reworking of most of the tanks to not have their have weakness be ignored by another similar to what orisa got. And them never releasing another tank with a unique barrier/DM/ and or defesnive utility tool that lets them cycle another defensive tool.

And also require the likes of suzu and LW pull and other defensive supports tools to be reworked or heavily nerfed in the proccess.

Like their is a “solution” just not one people would like to hear or want for that matter.

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The argument : 6v6 has issues.

The counter argument: so does 5v5.

It comes down to what issues we believe are better to tackle and which ones are we willing to live with if they are not entirely solveable.

Personally, I don’t think the tank problem in 5v5 can be fixed. Because there is only one tank, all the pressure is on them as the spearhead of their team. This means that they are going to be constantly countered. Not just by the enemy tank but by the entire enemy team.

The only way to make tanks fun to play is to in some way make the immortal gods. Either by upping their damage or by increasing their sustain to god levels. But that results in tanks never dying and we already know via roadhog/orisa meta’s that no one likes playing into immortal tanks.

Which leaves us with the problem of having to choose to make tanks the playthings of the other two roles or making the other two roles the playthings of tanks.

Neither of which are appealing.

6v6 on the other hand allows for tanks to be fairly squishy individually due to intersecting abilities covering their individual weaknesses. Yes, Some of those pairings were very powerful but most of them did not last for long.

The only exception was double barrier which only remained as such because they literally abandoned OW1 after introducing sigma. Leaving us to deal with the same meta until just a few months before OW2.

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5v5 isn’t working. They are basically retuning all of the characters so 5v5 can work

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That is why most asymmetrical games fail outside of Dead by Daylight. No idea why Dead by Daylight somehow overcomes this problem. Probably through hypnotism. The game is so blatantly survivor sided, but they somehow convinced survivor mains it is killer sided and that, somehow, makes survivor mains want to queue survivor which is great because you need four survivors for every one killer to create a lobby.

Obviously no other company has Behavior’s Behavioral Manipulation Rays to achieve this same effect. And as a result, those other asymmetrical games never stand a chance. In fact, those games literally just serve to give DbD players a renewed interest in DbD. If Governments ever got their hands on this brainwave technology, the apocalypse would surely follow. Fortunately it is in safe hands that have no idea how to innovate whatsoever.

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This isn’t really true, the job of the tank now in 5v5 is get the team to space they can play in, while their kill things. And on the occasion DM / block / cancel a major cooldown / ult.

You don’t need and simply can’t eat all the damage the enemy is throwing at you. That’s simply not your job and never was suppose to be the tanks job.

It is ok for your dps to take aggro of hero or two, while you go and have your own 1~3 v 1~3 duel somewhere else as long one of you are actually killing things.

So this is actually being addressed by the devs as of recently. They are likely looking into reducing the wieght the built in weaknesses of tanks have.

I personally have also suggested that tools like hack / hindered also get a look at, as they are nearly universally effective on the role. And just in general really good at shutting down whole kits.

Not exactly no, tanks are currently the only major thing they seem to be concerned with at the moment. And the devs have noted changes such as the health pool adjustments to be more so to “shake the game up” then for actual balance reasons.

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No offense but I think you misunderstand what I was talking about. I am not saying they take all the damage and cooldowns. I am saying they take all the pressure of the role. DPS and Support both have another person to shoulder the load. Tanks are the spearhead of their team. Creating space for them to play in. Being the only one means all the pressure is on you to do so and there is no one else to shoulder the load along with you.

Meanwhile they also are the main target of counter swaps and counter stacking. You watch a teams D.va do amazingly well then suddenly it’s zarya, sym, and mei all bypassing her DM and she is forced to swap.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLEnB3i9gDs

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That doesn’t really mean anything then.

It’s not like one team is at an objective advantage, your not expected to take on the responsibility of what two tanks use to do. Because the game format and balancing in what the other two roles can do, don’t require you to do so.

Supports can peel for themselves now for anything that isn’t another tank, and dps are made to be able to take a bit of aggro themselves.

Like I said before once you effectively get your team into a space, your ultimately just killing things. Which something the dps can do. And even if you die the rest of the team is able to still kill things. Like as long as your were actively attempting to also kill things, and progressed the team fight in some way. their is nothing you really have to do beyond that point.

your team is in position and if the other team is dead you don’t need a designated person to push in the time your walking back from spawn.

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No, it certainly does mean something. When one DPS misses the shot to finish off a target the other can pick up that miss. When a support doesn’t have a cool down available to enable/save a teammate the other may very well have.

When a tank lacks the cooldowns or health to make space there is NO ONE to do so for them in the mean time.

What you are failing to see here is that if you make a mistake there is no other person in that role to assist. You are carrying the load of taking space as the only person in your role.

I find it interesting that your entire argument relies on you being in a good position. The thing that tank players have to enable solo because of the pressure I am talking about.

Of course when you have a good game as tank the pressure is significantly less. That is just the case overall. But I am talking about the pressure on the role regardless of the situation. Not when you’ve successfully done the job.

The point is that the tank role is under far more pressure in comparison to the other roles because no one shares that role.

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So like that’s not your problem, as the best solution around that is to get the numbers advantage. Where their is inherently a lot less to handle for everyone else on your team.

So you only have to this once at the start of the fight, just getting people in a place they can kill thing will inherently change what LOS are safe to play in. Which will force the enemy team to play and position around yours.

Once players on the objective they don’t really need to be pushing any where else for the time it takes to respawn. If they need to move at all do to the objective inherently being the best place to hold already in most game modes.

And as tank should just be focused on killing the things that are actively in that space. And shouldn’t be attempting to push past that till enemy is gone from their.