Exactly
If they had diverted a lot of that passive healing into a more active role (like repair pack) she would be much better and maybe they wouldnt need to nerf her so much or potentially rework her (thing im against…)
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All the things nerfed would have been larger issues in goats, especially the notable omission of bashes going through barriers. Zen goats peak AoE is roughly Moira piss levels of heal. It was never the heals. If it was, we’d see old school Moira goats more.
The bash through barriers beeing removed made goats stronger though
Not really. It just made goats mirrors boring. I suppose non goats brig comps were hurt but no one ran them anyway outside a few instances of Brig+Lucio 2/2/2 cheese.
the problem is, he was the number 3-4 dps, and number 1 and 2 are busted OP.
genji is number 3 because he is good against widow and hanzo while also enjoying a monkey free meta.
what im saying is, mcree is the power creep. unless they are also going to buff all the dps, tanks, and healers to deal with widow, hanzo, and mcree.
Funny, you directed me hear from my thread on this same sort of topic and I do see we agree.
I disagree with McCree as I think that’s just a bad balance decision rather than linking back to failed past changes. After all the reason they gave to the buff wasn’t that it addressed his weaknesses, it was that he wasn’t good enough to justify them so they wanted to make him better.
But your right, change something and fail then change something and succeed and you will likely have deeper effects of the failed change and often the right thing to do is revert the first one. The hypothetical you gave is a good demonstration of our theory.
I must say however I prefer my name for this of legacy changes to calling them useless changes XD
Edit: I’d add the reason I don’t like the term useless changes is sometimes you get a change that made sense and worked but the reason behind it is gone so now it’s a problem, a legacy problem. I don’t really want to go into a detailed example here as it means going through loads of old patches and hero interactions so I’ll just ask this, why does Widow have bonus crit dmg?
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But its still one more option against goats they removed, which goes against the point of all that
3-4th worst, and has been consistently C/D tier since before S3.
Funny you mention Winston, since his bubble buff in S4 is what started the runaway powercreep. We’re finally reaching the remaining third of the roster.
For the record I disagree with this change, but it really didn’t do much except placate the tank mains in exchange for turning goats mirrors from slightly exciting to an absolute bore. Not much changed in terms of balance and viability.
Don’t forget the Junkrat changes when he didn’t really have any problems beyond his ult charging too fast.
But instead they nerfed his nade size by two thirds and took away one and sometimes two bounces, nerfed tire speed and charge rate… and his only buffs were increasing his nade speed and damage by ten.
They said they wanted to nerf his spam and increased the need to aim, but thing is they gave him no survival to help. Now you can just go to Hanzo or even Mccree now because they do the same thing but with less weaknesses.
Many Junkrat mains agreed that he needed a small nerf to his ult charge. That’s the common agreement. Even reduce a bounce. But the nade size nerf really was way too much.
All to help a none aiming hero aim
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Yeah i mainly cited some examples
I didnt want to go through the entire ow history or we’d end up with a 50 page thread
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Yeah, but then that means enough people agree.
Personally I’m just salty over junk. He’s not even that viable in bronze ranks anymore. And that’s the one place he should be dominating
I’m wondering how big of an impact the bug to rally armour stacking played in the their decision to reduce the effectiveness of armour globally…
The big problem here was they considered buffing him and went against it as his dmg on PTR was monstrous, maybe the answer is rework some of the changes about projectiles size then.
That’s false, the thing people complained about by far the most in her initial versions was her stun. You can very easily verify that by looking on the old forums like a month after she was released, there’s thousands of topics complaining about her stun and very few mentioning the AOE healing.
That doesnt mean that it was the issue that was causing goats
sure people were complaining about those too, But those were mainly those who still are comaplaining about it now,
i mean those who wanted to make the meta change, and recognized what was the real issue
I only partly agree. I think the reason Brigitte caused goats initially is by a critical mass of abilities that counter dive.
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Armor and burst healing. I think that’s the most important part of the equation. Dive relied on Winston and Tracer as the primary sources of focused damage, and armor directly counters both hard. Both in the form of her ultimate granting everyone 150 armor (initially), as well as the fact that her armor pack counters the strategy of quickly collapsing on a single target super well.
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The stun and boop. Both amazing tools against dive. A stun on either Tracer or Genji while they’re diving your team will result in a death pretty much every time in the pro scene, and booping a Winston away while he’s engaging will completely remove him from the equation until his jump comes off cooldown.
AOE healing comes into the equation later, and it’s the primary reason Goats stayed meta for as long as it did, we’re in agreement on that.
High healing output was always a very powerful strategy in Overwatch. The first 3-3 compositions had success nearly two years before Goats was a thing. They never picked off though, because they were always countered by dive. Dive counters traditional sustain compositions by virtue of the fact that no amount of healing will be able to outheal 4-6 players attacking the same discorded target simultaneously.
But now you get a hero that not only counters dive with literally every part of her kit, she also adds yet another form of AOE healing. So you buff an already good strategy and remove it’s biggest counters, all with the same hero? Doesn’t make it very surprising we had Goats meta as long as we did.
currently i dont think brig is as much of a dive counter as she once was
i have gotten ran over my dive comps myself while playing her, so its not impossible
and i also can easily 1v1 a brig was winston, so its not exactly impossible
but really they should just give reapers M1 a 50% antiheal and it would probably have solved goats instantly XD
Definitely less of one than she was originally, all parts of her kit that counter dive did get nerfed after all.
That would be gross 
But effective!
i mean he is overdue for a buff
might as well give him a new niche unseen before, to just be a character meant to disurpt healing
it would be a more healthy way of tank busting inestead of “beeing literally unkillable by tanks” like with 50% lifesteal and to some extent 40%
100%. If you tone down his lifesteal this would be a cool direction to go in. Right now as a tank you always ask yourself “should I even help my team fight him right now or will he just heal more damage off me than I actually deal to him”, it’s not exactly healthy when you have a hero that you potentially actually heal instead of damaging by fighting him.