The forced 50% w/r does exist on paper in solo comp

Usually this happens for one of a couple of reasons. The first is that there are not enough players currently queueing to make a better match. That is, it would prefer to have all 12 players be within some fairly narrow range of skill, but if it doesn’t have those players it will look in a wider skill range. The second is someone in that match is grouping with someone of a different skill level. In that case, the matchmaker is essentially prevented form finding 12 players of the same skill level, because 2 or more players have chosen to create a match between players of different skill levels.

And, again, you should expect that outlier games exist. That’s normal. Unless the OW algorithm were doing something very weird in order to enforce particular results, players of lower skill level would sometimes win in matches against higher skilled players. That sort of thing happens. It just wouldn’t be the norm. If it were the norm for any given player, that player would rank up. But if it is not the norm for a given player, they will not rank up, they will simply sometimes have these outlier games where they win against better opponents. And in those cases, they will get rewarded with higher than normal SR gains.

That’s just a well designed system functioning as intended.

This is something you can easily verify for yourself. Watch some vods of games at a variety of ranks. Do Bronze players play as Plat or Diamond or Masters or GM or top 500 players do? When I watch a GM match, am I confused about what rank those players are? When I watch a Silver match, do I think to myself, this could be Diamond. Or this could be GM.

Why not, because the rankings do measure skill. If they were not measuring skill, what I would see instead would not be an increase in skill evinced by the players as they rank up the ladder. Instead, I would see GM play at all ranks and I would see Bronze play at all ranks. There would be some indistinguishable mish-mash of skill up and down the ladder. And, for all that there is different skill among players within any given rank, it is not true that people playing in Plat look like Bronze players or people playing in Diamond look like GM players.

You should not expect to keep some particular SR, no. That is, I am not a 2850 player, even if that is my current SR. I am a high-ish plat player, say. I should expect to hover somewhere around +/- 200 SR from some rank that indicates my current skill. If I rank down to 2650 or rank up to 3050 for a bit, that makes sense. And I’m probably roughly at the same skill when that happens. If I start to rank outside that range for a longer period of time, I am probably playing worse than I was when compared to the current player base. Or if I rank up to 3200 and achieve a new equilibrium in that range, I am now playing better (as compared to the current player base) than I was before.

They aren’t randomly selected teams though. I’ve never seen a <500 player in a match. Why is that? Has the random matchmaker simply never placed me in such a match in any of the matches I’ve played in over 2100 hours of playing this game? If <500 players are being matched against other <500 players, that is not random matchmaking.

Hmmmm, sounds like hand waving. When my Tank SR was 2000, my W/L was 47%. When my Tank SR was 1500, my W/L was 48%. When my Tank SR was 1000, my W/L was 45%. When my Tank SR was 750, my W/L was 43%. When I went below 500 SR, my W/L was 41%, until I climbed out (Not deliberately, that place is a hoot. It just became almost impossible to lose down there.)

If my “skill” is <500, how did I win 47% of my games against SR 2000 players? If my “skill” was <500, shouldn’t my W/L when I was playing in Gold be < 10%, only winning by pure luck? How does one win 47% of one’s games at a rank 1500 above where one “belongs”?

How did I win more games in Gold than I did in 750 bronze?

I’ll address the rest of your post tomorrow.

The more games you play, the tighter the variance… because you have an increased sample size.

He continues to say that if he wanted to do it right ( in 2017), he would MOVE THE VARIANCE ALONG WITH THE RATING. That makes sense as the sample size for the player within that NEW band (or variance) of MMR is close to zero. The cycle repeats again. the more game one plays at the new rating, the smaller the variance. There is no forcing of your rating within a band. You quote correctly but out of context.

3 Likes

I honestly don’t know without more information. Looking at vods would be helpful. But it’s really hard to say much of anything with this information. My best guess (and that’s all it is) given this limited information would be that your skill might be roughly in the silver range (assuming that your skill didn’t change at all over this time period- which is a pretty questionable assumption to make), so if some things break your way or you are playing particularly well you might range up to low gold. But if some things break against you or you are not playing your best, you might range down into bronze.

I should have been more clear. With a new account I place Tank in Gold, then grind my way down very slowly to ~700 bronze. With Support I place in Plat, then grind my way down very slowly to ~700 bronze. Occasionally, when the game crashes due to a memory leak, the algo burns my SR even lower.

I basically never climb. SR declines on loss games are always greater than SR increases on won games. That, combined with a consistent W/L of just under 50% means that my SR is always decreasing.

I get accusations of smurfing in lower bronze, which is hilarious, because I’m in the rank I belong in, right? I’m not alone either. Down in bronze there are a lot of Gold/Plat DPS who just don’t want to be in voice chat. They get accusations of smurfing too.

Yes you have, it’s just that they weren’t <500 SR when they were in your match. And if you have never played in Bronze, then you really don’t know what you are talking about.

It is within that cohort. In higher cohorts, the algo tries to match teams on multiple criteria. In sub-500, it just picks 12 players and throws them into a match. The difference between someone at 499 SR and 100 SR is barely noticeable. The difference between 2000 SR and 1600 SR can be game changing.

The thing I never see “forced wins/losses isn’t real” people explain is why the matches are such poor quality.

If the reason I have a nearly 50/50 win/loss ratio is because the matches are so even that I have a 50% chance of winning then why are they almost always total steamrolls in one direction or the other?

To control your dopamine levels. It’s a casino, not a game of skill.

1 Like

This is fairly normal. Pretty much everyone places around gold. I played with a couple of other people who place into gold and then rank down. That’s not unusual at all.

1 Like

I’ve actually written a lot about this.

People attribute all sorts of player side issues to the matchmaker because they do not understand how matchmakers function.

But steamrolls are, generally speaking, due to one of several factors (many of these are exacerbated by the fact that people assume the game is rigged against them):

  1. One or more people on one team give up.
  2. One or more people on one team are on a hero or a role that they do not understand.
  3. One team has a group of mixed ability and it skews the match.
  4. One or more people on one team are intentionally throwing.
  5. One team is utilizing a hero or a strategy or a comp or an approach that the other team does not counter for whatever reason.
  6. One or more players on one team are impaired in some way (ill, drunk, high, etc)

Most of my matches, though, are not steamrolls in one direction or the other. Whenever someone reports that most of their matches are steamrolls in one direction or the other, they might consider whether they are skewing their matches in some way. I mean, we’ve all run into the player who tilts way early- that player probably does find themselves in a ton of steamrolls, because they are causing their team to perform worse than it would if they were not in that match. Or the player who starts complaining about the matchmaker or smurfs or whatever else. Those players are contributing less to their team than they would if they simply focused on the game.

And there are knock-on effects of all of that. The players on their team will likely take some of those issues into their next matches. It becomes a pervasive issue in the community.

2 Likes

This is a really weird way of looking at things. If I say I’ve never seen a top 500 player in one of my matches, would you tell me “yes you have, it’s just that they weren’t top 500 when they were in your match.”

1 Like

I never said it was unusual. It seems pretty common from what I can tell. What is bizarre is placing in Plat, then ranking down over incrementally over 300 games. It would be like placing in the NFL, then being relegated to college football because your team lost 52% of it’s games.

If SR was a measure of skill, then a sub-500 player would be at 750 SR in 20 games, not 150 games. On the way down from Plat to Bronze, my stats remained largely unchanged (they improved slightly as opponents became easier).This is especially true if you measure them on a time basis. 30 elims in 10 minutes is the same as 3 elims in 1 minute, but bizzarely there is no temporal component to performance metrics. How can SR be a measure of “skill” if the skill level remains unchanged (or improves) while dropping 4 ranks?

They need to do something about smurfs honestly… I think it needs a harsh punishment, because they also ruin the MMR, and such of each rank by doing things in bronze, silver, gold… that you would not find there normally. It’s actually stupid, and they need to be punished for ruining the experience for others. Because that is technically against terms of service, and therefore, smurfing is breaking TOS.

Because having inexperienced tanks (or supports) playing Hog and DVa against Rien and Zarya with an Ana or Bapt on the enemy team, means your tanks get walked on for Freelo.

I do agree with you, however…

Its not as simple as one might think.

A lot of Silver/Gold players couldn’t tell the difference between a smurf or a player who’s having a great game and being enabled by his time.

1 Like

Good luck convincing a lot of the people on these forums that the game is basically rigged against you. Nah. Matchmaking is perfect. SR is perfect. Balance is perfect. Everything is perfect.

Said nobody, ever.

Said nobody, ever.

Said nobody, ever.

Said nobody, ever.

Well it’s not. And most people are intelligent enough to understand the system.

Others tend to be delusional and suffer from Dunning Kruger.

Can’t really blame em though. Its a hard pill to swallow that they’re not better gamers than the average (and varying degrees above average) player.

1 Like

Sure dude. Nobody in the history of our species has ever rigged anything. Ever. There is no reason to believe that Activision and Blizzard have questionable morals. None at all.

Bold statement

Okay sure, but the general populations inability to learn and understand how to play a video game at increasing levels of difficulty isn’t a question of rigging. Its a question of their ability, or lack thereof, to learn and improve their own game play.

1 Like

In a game that requires coordination with five other human beings which the individual has no control over. No control over their skill, their comms, their mood that day, which character they decide to play, whether or not they feed and sabotage your team, etc. But, sure it’s all the individuals fault for not 1v6 every team fight.

Well at least we agree here.

But what allows high ranking players to climb even when they start over, is the decision they make moment to moment. There is some level of reliance on your team in lower elo. But as long as they’re not HARD FEEDING every game, it doesn’t take a whole to win more games than you lose.

Personally I attribute my climb to comms. I liked being in VC and making callouts to help my tanks and supports. But its not required if you do your job correctly.

If anything it may help you recognize terrible plays of your own.

Or you may see a teammate making a terrible play so you try to help him and it turns into a less terrible play.

There are 5 other people on your team who don’t instantly die.
If you truly deserve to play in a higher rank where opponents are more skilled, then you’ll find a way to make a difference in your own games before the other 5 players die.

Supports can carry games.
Tanks can HARD CARRY games.
And in lower ranks DPS can hard carry games.



Everything you’ve outlined in this response has NOTHING to do with match making by the way. Its entirely individual skill/player interest/proficiency/competitively minded performance based.

1 Like