Tank-tip of the day, Tank counter(s) for each tank

General Discussion
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Hi guys :slight_smile:
Not sure if anyone needs it or not but I decided it can be nice making a list of which tank counters which considering there’s only one in a team. Ofcourse it’s not too fair as some tanks are better against none-tank heroes and some better against other tanks, but still.
Do note I’m talking about design, not balance. Numbers change every couple of months, design less… So please try to avoid talking about how hog for example doesn’t counter anything in his current state, because this is about numbers, not the design…
So without waiting more, let’s begin:

D.va

  • Doomfist: both slam and punch go through matrix. punch stops missiles. block is also useful is she uses missiles.
  • Sigma: Rock goes through matrix. His grasp can eat the missiles. His shots are also bursty (one per 1.5 seconds which is very effective to stall matrix). He plays from a bit of range so he doesn’t need to get into D.va’s effective range.
  • Zarya: Zarya’s bubble is very effective to stall D.va and gain energy from her missiles or ult. Zarya’s beam go through matrix.

Doomfist

  • Orisa: Her fortify cancels his punch. he tried to block? spear. javelin spin is very useful for pushing him away.
  • Roadhog: Hook cancels pretty much any ability. Roadhog’s ult is also super useful if Doomfist engages with the slam. Hog’s high hp means Doomfist can’t really do much to him…
  • Zarya: Bubble is great against his punch. Which is a pretty big deal especially if Doomfist has a charged punch.

Junkerqueen

  • Sigma: He has a lot of ways to move her away or block her (knife can be blocked by both of his abilities, he plays from medium range where she can’t slash him and she can’t block anything he does). His body isn’t too weak to shot gun shots due to his thin body.
  • Reinhardt: The king of brawl, his shield block her knife, and he has the overall advantage of more health in a 1v1, not much she can do about his charge.
  • Zarya: bubble stops all of her abilities. Her body isn’t too weak to shot guns.

Orisa

  • D.va: D.va can eat all of her abilities. Has more damage than Orisa and can abuse Orisa’s big body. Can run away if needed and Orisa doesn’t have much to do against the bomb.
  • Zarya: Zarya’s bubble block both Orisa’s offensive abilities. Her beam goes through her javelin spin.

Rammatra

  • Orisa: has a tool to close the distance, stun+knockback to keep him away during his ult, fortify to try and stall his nemesis form as much as possible & stun is also useful for his block. If you can’t block it - stall it.
  • Reinhardt: Rein’s shield can block Rammatra’s normal shot, Rein doesn’t care about Rammatra’s shield or the field.
  • Roadhog: hp and defense are better than protections since his nemsis form passes protections. Hook can stop block. Hog’s ult counters Ramattra’s ult.

Reinhardt

  • Doomfist: Rein don’t really have much to do against Doomfist… Doom is allowed to get into the back lines and do whatever. Both charges cancle each other but Doom can play from a bit more range allowing him to move more freely.
  • D.va: Very high damage to out damage Rein and pressure his shield.
  • Orisa: Rein charges? Fortify or sprear, fire strike? Javelin spin. Even her ult counters him while most of her abilities counter his ult.

Roadhog

  • Junkerqueen: Junkerqueen has thin body that gives her less damage from shot guns since not all bullets connect. Her yell also ruins a hook combo. Knife can get the slow Hog out of position and into a healing slash. While his gun isn’t too useful, hers is on Hog’s round body. Her ult also stops his breather.
  • Orisa: Hook? she uses fortify or javelin spin if it’s on a team member. Take a breather? She uses her spear. She can also out range Hog with her shots.
  • Zarya: Bubbles ruin hook combo, since hog doesn’t have a lot of ammo, any stall by a bubble is useful. He’s a great ult battery for her own ult. Zarya also has thin body so she takes less damage from shotguns.

Sigma

  • Reinhardt: Rein’s hammer goes through everything Sigma has to offer. Rein’s shield can stall every ability Sigma has up close. Charge is also always useful if there’s no risk to charge into enemy back lines.
  • Winston: Winston’s abilities go through everything Sigma has to offer… Rock can be effective if hitting Winston in the sky but it’s all a matter of from where Winston jumps and how much time Sigma has to react to it.
  • Zarya: Beam goes through the grasp. His shots are very bursty which helps Zarya’s energy a lot. His rock gives time to react to. Sigma’s ult is also very good for charging up the bubbles. Only Sigma’s shield can stall Zarya a bit but noting too major.

Winston

  • Doomfist: Doomfist’s punch goes through the shield. Doomfist can also jump away from the shield if needed. Doomfist also out damage Winston.
  • Rammatra: Tries to jump in/out? the vortex. Uses a shield? Rammatra’s 2nd form can go through them.
  • Reinhardt: Rein is basically Winston in term of abilities but stronger & more defensive in exchange for less mobility. If Winston jumps into the backlines, one charge and he’s gone.
  • Roadhog: Road can hook Winston mid air and out damage him hard. Roadhog’s ult also counters everything Winston has to offer including Winston’s ult.

Wrecking Ball (Hammond)

  • Doomfist: Doomfist punch can stop Hammond from charging into Doomfist, his slam allows him to get out of slam range preventing ball from doing anything…
  • Junkerqueen: Knife is useful for stopping an engagement. his round body is useful for shotguns and since he comes in, it’s much easier to hit a slash on him.
  • Orisa: He tries to get in? Any of Orisa’s abilities pretty much denies him…
  • Roadhog: Hook can stop anything Hammond does, and since Hog has ton of health, Hammond can’t do much to him.

Zarya

  • Rammatra: Can out range her, isn’t too bursty so he doesn’t give her a lot of charge. His block can stall her bubble if needed.
  • Reinhardt: His shield can block stall her bubble & block her beam. Charge also has long enough of duration to stall a bubble before charging into a wall (refering to Rein charges Zarya). His hammer is also not too bursty in order not to give her too much energy.

I’m extremely sorry for Hammond players, I just didn’t find any tank Hammond is actually useful against. Maybe maybe Sigma as Sigma might have hard time stopping his combo but that’s about it…

Feel free to leave your thoughts. I would love to change the list if needed and just hear your thoughts :slight_smile: And plz once again, talk about design, not balance. Heroes get nerfed and buffed on daily basis… The kit is the most important part…

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Dva alone can’t do enough damage to break Reinhardt’s shield and pressure him. Dva is good against him on maps where there is high ground and she can sit on top and get an off angle on the Rein. He can either take the missiles or block them and remain exposed to dvas team. If he is getting pocketed then shoot the supports instead. If there is no high ground and there is a tight choke, dva will struggle against him.

Fortify can stop her from dying to it apparently, but I think that is from the distance that there is damage fall off. But I do think dva does well against Orisa.

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how does rein counter winton? Literally the other way around, a good winton will always ignore reinhardt and go for his backline. So, rein goes back into his backline with his charge? it creates waaay to much space for the enemy and its basically a lost fight if winston escapes, which most of the time happens.

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Nice list! Very well presented, with a lot of good points to read through.

Curious what your thoughts are on Sigma as an Orisa counter. From my perspective, he enables Zen poke, can shield-off Ana/Bap heals, can shut-down Jav Spin, and has 2 abilities to deny her offenses.

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It’s of course a very team dependent match up but I do think that at least from 1v1 perspective. D.va can pressure Rein really well because of her very high damage while Rein can’t do much to her.
She’s for sure not the best Rein counter and in a 5v5 environment there’s a good chance Rein might have the upper hand but her kit does provide a lot of very useful Rein pressuring tricks.

It’s true Rein can stall her really well but it’s not like he can do much to her and out of all tanks, she has the highest damage if I remember correctly. So if someone needs to pressure his shield, she does is probably the best (at least up close, if we add range to the mix then Orisa probably wins that or maybe even rammatra due to Orisa’s fall off)

As for chokes, I think it’s all a matter of what Rein and D.va run with them once again…

Winston has only one leap to get in… Once his in, Rein can take care of him simply because Winston can not escape and Rein beat him in every stat.

As for rein charging into Winston, every other tank would need to turn around to winston or ignore him completely so Rein isn’t special. The only difference is that Rein can keep Winston away from his team without caring about the bubble unlike other tanks. Rein doesn’t need to charge too far… Just keep him away from the support which is just 5+ meters if I remember correctly.

Thank you very much :slight_smile:

Hard one… I really hoped no one would ask me about it because of how hard it is XD.
But now that you “forced” me to answer…

Let’s start with the easiest part, the ultimates. There specifically Orisa beats Sigma (she counters his ult but not the other way around)

In term of the normal fight… It’s a hard one because it’s pretty much a fair match up. Both enjoy the range, and while Sigma can stall Orisa with his shield, she can out damage him and out range him… forcing him to use the shield to get close. So they’re pretty fair on that note.

In a normal 1v1 I think Orisa would win due to higher damage and hp but in a 5v5, I think that like you said, Sigma’s shield is much more useful for the team and can block anything Orisa has to offer, allowing for snipers,turrets and other long range heroes to get free value.

So overall it’s a fair match up and would usually end up with how the team as a whole plays. But if both teams are as good as they can, Sigma would probably take the win.
Just my thoughts though :sweat_smile:

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I know she got buffs in ow2, but I don’t think she surpassed anyone. In OW1 at least I know Zarya and hog both out dps’d her and from further range.

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And how does rein even keep him away from supports? Like, if he plays passive with his team he gives up too much space = lost teamfight
Also, winton doesnt have to jump in, on many maps winton can just flank and get to the supports without his jump

rein is not a threat to winston, he just doesnt deal enough damage because of the armour, and good wintons ignore tanks and focus the backline

the only right play for rein in this matchup is to ignore winton and focus his supports/backline or make a coordinated push with his team (which doesnt happen often even in high elo)

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As a tank i really have a hard time to counter ramattra. Shields are useless against nemesi mode and his ult is just dumb.

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Do you include reloads or not? Because D.va doesn’t need to reload which increase her value by quite a lot. Especially if you include her missiles.
Her primary fire does around 146 damage per second + she has missiles that do 18 damage per second (cool down of 7 seconds, 7*18 missiles so each burst does 126 damage).
Zarya for example does 170 damage per second - but she can only shoot for up to 5 seconds before reloading for 1.5 seconds, so while she does 170 damage after one second, her average is actually 170 * 5/(5+1.5) = ~131 damage.

So against shields & other tanks specifically D.va does the most, against squishies the other 2 are leading…

Charging into a nearby wall is more than enough… And Rein doesn’t have to split up completely from his team, death ball is a completely optional playstyle.

If the tank is split up from the support, it’s not winston countering Rein, it’s winston countering a support that thought it’s safe to play away from everyone.

Not much anyone can do if someone attacks a team member across the map. Best you can do is Zarya’s bubble but for a team that actually works together Winston is very vulrnable to anything in Rein’s kit.

If a team lets a giant gorilla slowly walks in (meaning its team would be left without a tank btw and since it takes time Winston’s enemy have time to notice he’s missing) without noticing him until he’s in their face, what counters them really is their terrible awareness.
But even then, a good charge gives the support a second or two to heal while also putting heavy damage on Winston. so even though it’s not as efficient since Winston can jump back, it’s at least a free stall with a good chance of winning even though they failed to notice a massive tank.

All of Rein’s abilities go through shield making Winston’s bubble almost useless against Rein, charge keep winston away from his team and put heavy damage, Rein deals more damage than Winston does by a good amount, both with hammer alone and with fire strikes too.
What in Rein’s kit isn’t “enough”?

Take in mind shields are only useless against him during Nemesis form which is 8 seconds. If you can bait the ability, with a slow tank like Rein or Sigma that can just walk back, it’s not as effective… heroes like D.va or Sigma can also just eat his pummels.

He’s kind of a “bait” tank that wants you to come and focus him, but more often then not it’s better to either ignore him or stall him. without nemesis form he’s not something to fear from.

Even his ultimate works the same way. If you bait it and let him use it without anyone near by, it will be over very quickly. But if you insist on fighting it would continue.

But if you still want to challenge him during his stronger form, I think Rein has to be the more effective choice as the king of brawl…

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Generally, across all elos, the tank and support are split up and winston can capitalize on rein’s low mobility to get to the supports, if rein countered winston, he could do his job while making it hard for the enemy to get plays, which rein doesnt

Roadhog for example deals way too much damage on winstons bubble and winston himself, he can also prevent winston from escaping, that is a counter.
rein on the other hand has to give up a lot of space to help his team and if he helps his team he usually loses because the enemy gets better positions

Not in the slightest, many maps allow winton to go from flank angles like 2nd point junkertown, a good winton can always approach while having his cds mostly intact even in gm awareness or no awareness

also if winton can make the enemy use this many cds then he already got his value

What if they go through winton’s barrier? He has to be close, which he usually isnt, and if he is close then 85dps (59,5 with armour) isnt high enough to endanger winton, any smart winton wont let that happen, since he wont jump into a rein, but walk to a rein most often

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Orisa counters every tank in the game. That’s just the nature of only having one tank on a team, as long as the tanks have different abilities then there will always be one that is just straight up stronger than all of the others.

Although Orisa’s state right now is kind of inexcusable, she’s basically the Sojourn of tanks.

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There is no way you actually said Dva counters Orisa with a straight face.

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I see no difference between hog and Rein in this match up. hog needs to waist much more time on the bubble while Rein goes straight for Winston.
Hog also needs to get close enough for a hook as Winston is in his bubble.

Hog also can’t focus on the front line if he deals with Winston.

The only difference is that if Winston tries to jump away, Roadhog can hook him. In theory Rein’s charge is the same distance as Winston’s leap so that’s also something to take in mind

Both Rein & Hog put ton of pressure on Winston and both Hog & Rein have tools to keep Hog away from the team while needing.

As for the support splitting up from the tanks. I 100% think it’s the support fault if they are away from their tank while enemies have dive. It’s once again not the tank not countering the other tank but the support leaving themselves open.
It’s like saying Reaper doesn’t counter Winston because Reaper has short range so if Winston jumps his back lines, Reaper doesn’t have much to do…

If Rein doesn’t even have the chance to get near Winston and Winston doesn’t even get near Rein, it’s not really about Rein being good or bad against Winston - it’s about Reinhardt not being part of the situation as a whole.

For the first part, I would just have to disagree… even if he can flank by hiding in a dark corner, it’s really not the end of the world.
because (relating to 2nd point), Winston might waisted a 8 seconds cool down charge with a 5 seconds leap. But it’s not like next time Winston would attack Rein wouldn’t have his charge up. So it’s not like one waisted the cool downs and the other didn’t.

Winston flanked once but after he got charged, he needs to get back to his team or try get back to the enemy support and that would take a bit for him to heal back and get where he needs…

If Winston walks to Rein, it means the support aren’t in danger… And Winston has less damage and less hp than rein even if the 2 just primary fire each other.

If he jumps the support than the charge is a great tools because it’s a free 225 (157.5 with armor) damage + creating distance between Winston and his team + up to 3 seconds if the support need to be healed or something.

In term of balance yes, because her stats are through the roof, but as I said in the post, I talk about design (how abilities work and what they do) not balance (numbers), and in term of design, Orisa is good against Cc and slow characters but doesn’t have much to do if an enemy focus more on raw stats (attack,defense,speed) and less on utility.

Zarya for example couldn’t care less about most of Orisa abilities (Zarya can’t headshot anyways, beams go through the spin and bubble can get energy from both her spin and throw).
So while Orisa might be in a better state of balance, her design is less effective on Zarya’s kit while Zarya’s kit is still as impactful on Orisa with the exception of Zarya being weaker to range and ultimates (Both don’t care much for the other hero ultimate)

Because…?

Let’s put it in another way, what part of Orisa’s kit counters D.va’s kit?
Primary fire? Matirx was designed especially for closing the distance against these kinds of projectiles.

The javelin throw? Same thing here, Matrix deals with it…

Damage? D.va out damage Orisa by a lot…

Spin, defenses and the option to headshot are the 3 things Orisa does better - but just like Orisa can headshot, so can D.va when Orisa is out of fortify (fortify is 4.5 seconds, Matrix is 3, so she can stall it fairly well in theory), and while Orisa’s defenses are high.
and while spin can be good sometimes, it’s not the most op abilities…

I’m not claiming Orisa’s current state vs D.va current state would end up with D.va wins because balancing is a different story, balance changes every now and then and like I said in the original post, I talk design.
and in term of who does more to the other and who denies the other better, I think D.va can deny Orisa’s kit better than Orisa can deny D.va’s kit.

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Unless the Zarya is pre 100 charged with both bubbles, Orisa will always win though. She has the range advantage, the CC advantage, and the sustain advantage with fortify and armor. (Zarya has effective 875 HP, Orisa has effective 625 HP with only her HP pool and extra Fortify HP, then factor in the natural damage resistance of armor which is very effective against rapid fire weapons like beams and add that onto her Fortify damage resistance)

Orisa also has only slightly less average damage than Zarya (Orisa has 120 DPS, Zarya needs about 40 charge before she begins to match that I think)

Even in a team setting Orisa will just always have the advantage since she can not only win the straight up duel with Zarya but can easily bully her and zone her out with tons of CC if Zarya tries to take a duel with any squishy since Zarya has zero movement abilities.

Orisa is just better than Zarya in nearly every conceivable way. It doesn’t matter that her beam can go through Javelin Spin when Orisa is just heads and shoulders above Zarya in utility and stats. In fact Orisa is just better than every tank in every conceivable way. The only tank that really matched her was pre nerf Roadhog who was super sustainable and had insta pick power. But ya know, he sucks now so Orisa just dominates the tank roster atm. Funny enough, Orisa still completely bullied Hog even pre nerf, he was just an alternative pick that wasn’t just a complete downgrade.

Sorry I know this is already a lot of text but one last thing I want to add: I think Ram is the only tank who has a somewhat decent matchup versus Orisa atm.

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You’re looking at this in a complete vacuum. Dva has better mobility but Orisa has far more defensive potential and Dva’s shotgun-style weapons suffer heavily against Orisa’s armour, especially with Fortify. Plus if you try to dive her she can just bully you back with Spin. Could you make it work? Sure, if you’re twice as good at Dva than the enemy tank is at Orisa, but the amount of effort just isn’t worth it, just mirror and hope you’re better.

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The benefit of brawlers like Rein or Zarya is that they do not have to fully commit like divers and can instead take the fight their own way.

I can agree about the range part but except for that not.
For cc, Zarya is the best anti cc tank in the game… All the point of bubble is to not only to stop cc but also gain power from it.

Orisa’s spin not only doesn’t do much but also gives Zarya a lot of energy considering it’s 100 damage total.
Same for the javelin throw…
Bubbles are also efficient for stalling the fortify that causes most of the problems…

So Orisa is only left with her damage and some power in fortify while most of her kit is used against her…

I know Zarya starts at 0% but during a 5v5, Zarya would usually be charged up to at least 50% most of the times by random attacks from both sides.

You refer now to balance… not design.
I talk what character is designed (I also mentioned it in the original post quite in details…) to do and not just its current stats.

Stats change ever patches and some heroes get a bit stronger or a bit weaker and that does a lot of difference.

The design itself not and that’s what I check.

Sure, it’s important to note a tank does more damage than another if there’s a big gap but if it’s something a small patch can change, I prefer ignoring because that’s not really what the hero is about. I prefer the big picture over the specifically current one.

In current patch Zarya is weaker than Orisa but that can be easily changed in one small patch… So I look at the design.

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If you cant see the difference between hog and rein then idk what to tell you. Hog has the range to destroy winstons barrier while maintaining the threat of the hook, hog can be way further from winton and still pressure him, also hogs usually stay at the place.
Also winton’s leap is 6 seconds

The way winton gets value is: Making the enemy focus their attention on him, if he gets 3 people on him thats enough to win a teamfight usually from all the space he creates, hog doesnt need to pay too much attention to him, he just needs to shoot his barrier and try to deny his escape, but winton’s team still have to be careful around hog

forcing out cds is another important factor of winton, the longer he can shield dance the more cds he will force out, thats why destroying the shield is so important, because if rein goes back to help his supports for even 2 seconds, he will not be able to deal nearly enough damage to compensate for the space he gave up by trying to protect his team

Staying together is just asking the enemy to take positions and slowly destroy you, not to mention that makes it even easier for the winton to pressure every1, since he knows where the dmg is coming from, if all enemies are grouped up there are no uncertain factors to consider, its as simple as that

so you admit that rein doesnt counter winton

idk what you are trying to say here, winton flanks squishies not reinhardt, also if for example reinhardt charges winston and winston jumps away, rein used his only mobility option on a 13 sec cd for winston’s 6 sec leap, it was a trade well worth it for winton

This is under the assumption that rein can even charge him, usually there is always a corner, highground or anything else that would block the charge, it’s not easy to charge a winton as rein, it also displaces him and he essentially used up his only mobility option

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Uhm I think you have that backwards lol. Brawlers have to fully commit because of lack of movement whereas dives can pick their fights cause of their movement abilities and escapes… Like, Zarya can’t easily run from a losing fight she committed on for example whereas Winston can.

Not really… Funny enough Orisa actually is. Zarya has two bubbles with a total of 4 seconds uptime with a total 22 second cooldown. Orisa has a 4.5 second CC immunity on a 12 second cooldown lol. She can space out her bubbles better than just having a constant CC effect but at the same time it’s a trade off for being not only destructible but also still being able to be booped in some cases and also having a slightly shorter duration.

It displaces her still which is huge for a frontliner with no mobility. Besides struggling for high ground control, displacement is probably one of the bigger counters to brawlers like her and Rein.

Yeah she can block it, but it more often than not has to be on prediction. If Zarya is close to Orisa or the Orisa walks on her she can’t bubble the javelin on reaction because of latency and how quick the Javelin comes out. Maybe she can on LAN but odds of any of us playing on LAN are pretty low. And just because of it being a predictive reactive ability gives Orisa the priority in the matchup

That’s true but it doesn’t make her matchup any more favorable unless the Orisa is just shooting the bubble the entire time for… some reason? Even without Fortify Orisa outlives Zarya in the war of attrition unless Zarya is super charged because, again, armor.

Maybe, but that usually means Zarya is missing one of her bubbles which is why I didn’t really bring it up since the bubbles are on a much longer cooldown than Fortify just to keep it consistent. (2 second duration Bubble on an 11 second cooldown for a total of 22 seconds versus a 4.5 second duration Fortify on a 12 second cooldown) Another reason I didn’t really want to bring that up is because I’m fairly confident that a 50 charge Zarya even with both bubbles still doesn’t have the advantage over Orisa all things considered but there’s no real way to prove that which again, is why I didn’t want to bring it up since it’s just a matter of conjecture.

Fair enough, the tangent I had about Roadhog didn’t really matter much to the discussion anyways, I guess it was just more of a vent about how broken Orisa is.

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You are right about the speed allowing divers to get out more efficiently but the reason I think brawlers are actually better for disengaging is because divers can be punished much harder (they are more fragile and jump into the middle of the enemy team), and usually getting out for them means really getting out - like regrouping and all.

Brawlers tend to play it more safe, the battle is face to face (not chaotic everyone on everyone) and they are usually much more defensive in term of their both playstyle and kit which allows them to have easier time backing up slowly.

Let’s say Rein gets into a fight, he swings a bit and then gets to a scary hp state, he can always put his shield and go back (enemies are only up front) for heals. Zarya is similar but less defenses with a bit more range to play near corners if needed.

for a diver like Winston it’s all or noting… He uses everything when he’s in and hopes to get the job done. Even something like Reaper or Sombra that can escape, usually completely get out of the fight instead of returning due to how the fights work.

So while it’s true divers can technically get out of the fight more easily, it’s harder for the team to “take breaks” since they are in the middle of everything so it’s a bit all or noting unlike how brawl can, just take a step back and the whole team moves with the tank fluidly.

So in the context of Zarya, you use corners to gain some energy before engaging and try to rely on the surroundings as much as possible so the shields hp can actually get some usage.

I think it’s worth noting Orisa can only stop cc for herself while Zarya can stop cc for each team member needed.

and while Orisa can stop movement, Zarya instead can stop effects which is also a form of crow control if you ask me (I mean, sure it doesn’t technically stop anyone, but a lot of effects do limit the crowd like anti nade or hack, and according to the Wikipedia article about cc apparently that counts).

Either way, if to focus on the reason why we even talked about Zarya’s power against cc, it was not because Zarya is better or not against Orisa in the field of stopping cc, it was because Zarya’s normal kit doesn’t have any cc while Orisa’s kit does. So Zarya can stop Orisa’s cc which makes an ability like the javelin throw less impactful, while Orisa’s fortify only gives her the defenses benefit since Zarya can not head shot or knockback (unless you count the tiny knockback of the secondary).

High ground is a different story since Zarya struggles with high ground in general… So if you abuse high ground, not much Zarya can do in the first place.

But outside of it, I don’t think it harms Zarya as much as Rein tbh since Rein is really hopeless against it, he has a very limited range and he can’t even fight back against Orisa (closest thing is trying to charge and hope she’s moving forward+not fortifying because then the charge connects). Zarya doesn’t take the damage, can hit Orisa while she spins and has the range to keep hitting stuff.
It’s still knockback which means it’s still keeping her away, sure. But since brawlers have their own territory, the push back isn’t as terrible as Winston for example or even D.va getting out of position away from their target.

I know it’s getting a bit into balance instead of design but I decided it can be interesting to test the values.
Orisa’s javelin has 0.3 seconds cast time with a speed of 70 meters per second.
Let’s say 10 meters sound fair for the distance the 2 usually?
It means it takes the spear ~0.44 seconds to reach.

Zarya’s bubble don’t have a cast time according to the wiki.

So, I think personally 0.44 seconds is enough…

Talking from personal experiences I usually can react to Orisa on time, but then again - personal experiences are not pure science…

Remember we’re talking about a 5v5 environment, idk why,who or how but usually some damage finds its way into the bubbles unless Zarya literally shows up of nowhere and pop it immediately.

As for the defenses without the fortify - I think it leads us to an interesting question of how much the team impacts this match up - most of Zarya’s match up relies on it tbh considering how much team reliant Zarya’s kit is in the first place…

Zarya has the benefit of damage but Orisa has the benefit of defenses. Even without high healing I’m not sure who earns the most from it… Same for the damage.

I do think Zarya bit more simply because Orisa is much bigger and Zarya can completely stop damage while zarya can only reduce it (if both teams have a lot of damage, the difference can be felt pretty well). But then again, it requires some testings and balance impact it a lot more than just design…

It’s a question of when the 2 meet. Zarya can charge herself before hand, sometimes and during the fight. It connects to the previous “part” (how do I call this short responses for a discussion, it’s like a comment having parts?) that during the fight itself Zarya also can gain charge fairly well from the enemies as a whole.

Fair. But overall Orisa counters hog by design as well (Hog without his hook and without his heal is just an ult battery and Orisa can disable both) so it’s still problematic talking about the 2 in term of Hog was strong and Orisa still countered him, because it’s more on the design than the balance.

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I agree with everything you said except dva as a counter to ramattra. Dva is horrendous against him