So your plan is to kill GOATS by mandating a DPS on the team? How about if we want to run 6 supports or 3 tanks 3 supports or even 4 DPS 2 supports, we can run it.
No. You cannot on any of those cases. But goats is dead.
Now dive on the other hand…
To be honest … Don’t we have the LFG system? Basically forces you into your role? + I think its good theres no such thing as forcing roles, sometimes you need slightly more damage so you either can switch to a third one or switch with someone else.
My system is the 1/1/1 role system. I explained that this was a problem with the 2/2/2 system and less of a problem in 1/1/1. I don’t think Role Queue should instantly lock you into that role, it should just be your preferred role. You should still be able to select whatever hero you want until that 1/1/1 requirement needs to be met. If Rein was the only Tank hero, he would need to ask someone to swap with him.
I said it before in a reply to another user, I personally don’t care about GOATS. Yes, this type of 1/1/1 role system would prevent GOATS and other similar teams that remove a specific role, but I would rather work on balancing the heroes so all of them are viable.
How about Orisa is in a good place right now and shouldn’t be deleted?
thats not enough… when you have 4 dps players you are limited in the healer choices then. picking zen fe is becoming very risky and the only tank is then going to be roadhog.
That’s why I wanted to make a post about why 1/1/1 would be better. I also like not having a limit but it seems there is a demand for one so I wanted to put my opinions out there before this 2/2/2 Meta Lock becomes reality. If we need this system, we should have the best version of it possible.
the solution is pretty easy: make an arcade mode with 2-2-2 and everyone who does not like to play this way is not going to be forced to.
but then actually all the dps players will cry because supports and tanks go and play this arcade mode. would be hilarious
I’m gonna be honest.
I prefer a 2-2-2 comp, but I definitely have had more fun with a 3dps/2tank/1mh line-up. Even if I’m the mh.
EDIT: That being said, when the 3/2/1 comp doesn’t work, it REALLY doesn’t work.
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You might be interested in this post. It popped up around the same time as mine and I’ve commented there as well. People do want to try it.
It’s just an optional choice if you wanna try something else.
So… queue as tank for short queue times then lock dps
I mean, sure, as long as you aren’t upset about having a team of mostly damage heroes or having to play tank if you get stuck as the 1 remaining player.
If we want community based control on it, we could have an icon for what role you selected in role queue so the system won’t be as abused. Several games of a Tank Role Queue Searcher picking Damage instead of Tank seems like a reportable enough offense.
The other option would be to put a timed lock on hero switching. Currently in the game, you can’t see the enemy team’s picked heroes (on the stats page where the medals are) until a certain amount of time has passed within the match. We could also tie switching heroes to that timer and force a role queue searcher to take their chosen role upon entering the game. After the timer is up and teams are revealed, they can swap to whatever they want within the 1/1/1 system.
I am okay with forced 2/2/2 for arcade mode, but it would be absolutely terrible for competitive. It will cause more harm than good. Much more harm.
People like the idea of forced 2/2/2 because they only care about their hate of Goats and they want to remove it. However they completely ignore all terrible consequences it will cause.
By forcing any format you solve no problem, but create new ones. You remove Goats, but will return Dive-vs-Dive, which is much more terrible, stale and boring, but with even higher level of toxicity than before, because a lot of people will be forced to play roles they don’t want to play and disallowed to play comps they probably want to play.
Goats is a balance problem. And balance problems should be solved only by balancing methods. Goats is a problem not because it is a 3/3 comp and every 3/3 comps is bad. Goats is a problem because it lacks of reliable counters accessible for all levels of play. Pros counter Goats with Goats not because there is no other way to counter it, but because they can play Goats better than average players and that make it the most effective way to counter Goats, while other ways to counter Goats are not very popular on lower level of play (for example, good Mei is VERY strong counter for Goats that can completely ruin it by herself alone, but average players prefer to whine about how Mei is annoying to play against instead of learning how to play her and use as Goats counter).
So if the only reason you want to enforce 2/2/2 is to remove Goats - this is a very wrong way. Goats problem should be solved with balancing methods, with nerfs and buff or certain old heroes and addition of new ones.
Outside of Goats problem there is another one: your team lacking of certain roles. It is a common problem when you join the game and your team has 5 DPS mains and no one want to play Rein, for example. Yes, it is frustrating. And because of that people want to make a Role Queue.
Role queue will not work. Version of RQ when you choose your role before the game will cause tremendous increase of waiting time, especially for DPS players because MAJORITY of players want to play DPS and only DPS. It will be also problematic to define roles, because on practice there are more than 3 roles: there are not only tanks, but main tanks, dive tanks and off-tanks; there are not only healers, but main- and off-healers; there are not only DPS, but flankers, hitscan, snipers, splash damage, specialists.
RQ in form of matchmaking that tries to build teams based on time players play different roles, trying to fill all roles, is also bad, because it will force players to play one role for eternity. If Tank main will decide to start playing DPS - he will not be allowed, because he always will be connected to team that requires him as a tank. That will force players to buy smurf accounts, which is not healthy practice at all.
But in reality all this problems of badly structured team already solve. If you want to always have good team with all roles filled - go LFG. I am playing only LFG since its release and I never got a bad team that lacks any role. All problems could be solved with minimal amount of communication. You want a better team - build it by yourself, or join already created one. Yes, it takes some more time than just jump into random queue, but you need to understand that competitive - is a serious play and serious play requires more time invested. But if you build good team once you can play with this people for how long you all want with no need to find new one before every match.
But for some reason some people completely ignore LFG. They are wrong. They waste time whining on forums about how they are tired of playing teams with 5 DPS and at the same time they ignore tool that completely solves this problem. Not all people are smart, I guess.
But the main problem OW had from the beginning and has now is Global meta. No matter what, Goats, Dive, Four Tank, 6 DPS or whatever else - there always will be one the most dominant comp which will define meta.
The only real way to solve this problem is to add hero banning system. It will completely ruin global meta and allow players to form local meta in every game. 1 ban per team (2 in total) will allow player to ban one the most frustrating hero all the time, that will show devs clear statistic about problematic heroes, while allowing player to play in more healthy environment without totally OP hero, but the second ban will usually vary, which will create much more diverse meta.
The only small problem (which is not a problem at all in my personal opinion) that Hero Banning could cause is rise of toxicity that comes from one-tricking players. But one-tricking itself is unhealthy for the game that is build around idea of switching and adapting to enemy team. But if forced 2/2/2 may force one-tricks to play roles they don’t want to play, Hero banning could encourage one-tricks to learn to play more heroes of similar role to have spare pick in case of their main pick being banned. That will make the whole game much more healthy.
The only real problem with Hero banning that I see is that it cannot be implemented right now. There is not enough heroes, not all heroes have proper alternatives. For example, McCree one-trick can easily shift to play Ashe or Soldier, while Rein one-trick has no real alternative. Even 1 ban per team with current number of heroes could completely lock entire subroles, which is not healthy.
In conclusion, the only usefull thing that Devs can do is to put more effort into new heroes development, older heroes balancing and reaching bigger number of heroes, probably 40, as fast as possible and than add a hero banning. That will help, while introduction of systems like Role Queue or Forced 2/2/2 will be a waste of time with little benefits and huge harmful consequences.
I feel like you said most of this earlier. I honestly don’t like the idea of hero banning. One of the reasons is the number of heroes banned, are you just picking 1 hero or more? In the case of 1 hero there will be a second meta that takes place because the most core component of the first will always be banned in high ranked playing. If there are several hero bans, you can wipe out most important jobs or counters if a team coordinates the bans. There are 3 tanks with barriers, all 3 get banned. There are 3 main healers, all 3 get banned. There’s also a lack of ability overlay and countering when you introduce bans. Assuming Bans were a planned addition to the game, the next 10 heroes that get introduced into the game will have to make up for what could potentially be banned. A lot of heroes would lose their unique qualities. The dominant meta thing is a problem but I personally don’t feel hero bans are the solution either.
There’s also a quote floating around about OWL and bans and not being able to see a pro player being able to play their hero because it got banned but I don’t care for OWL and would rather look at the game and not the ESport.
That is why I said that hero bans cannot be added right now. The game requires more heroes to make hero banning work well and without bad consequences.
Yes, one ban will usually be the same all the time - it will be the most OP hero at the moment. In that case hero ban will act like a quarantine for problematic heroes that will at the same time provide devs with proper statistics about problematic heroes, while also allow player to play in more healthy environment with no need to struggle because of these problematic heroes.
The second ban will vary much more because most OP comps are usually build around one hero. You ban Brigg and you will not see Goats. You ban D.va and you probably will not see Dive. You ban bastion and you will not see Pirate Ship, and etc etc. If first ban will be mostly based on OP status of some hero, second ban will be based in what a certain team does not want to play against. If team A is strong with Dive they will ban something that counters Dive. If team B want to go Pirate Ship they will ban counters for Pirate ship. In that way the players will shape a local meta for each match.
But again, all of that will not work with current number of heroe. We need more heroes because we need more alternatives for some heroes. I don’t think this will cause lack of uniqueness of heroes, because there are already heroes that has alternatives but also are unique at some degree. McCree can be easily replaced with Ashe, but both are unique to each other.
With all honesty, I think it should not be an argument at all. If certain pro can deliver interesting to watch gameplay only on one hero - he does not deserve pro status. Hero banning will improve that too, because it will encourage pro players to put more time and effort into more heroes and that will help them to become even better and provide even more interesting to watch gameplay.
If best Genji shows great play on Genji it does not mean that it should do it only on Genji. It would become boring at some point.
With all of that said, I would be pretty upset if I could never play a hero ever again because they are constantly banned. I have doubts that a ban system will even work like this if it is added. Overwatch already has a ban system and it has to do with the Elimination Mode. If they were to add bans into the core gameplay, it’s likely they would build off of the existing system rather than code an entirely new one. I don’t like how the current ban system in Elimination feels. I don’t want to be forced away from characters I like playing because somebody else removed it for me. I don’t think a ban system is the best way to balance the game. It could be a refreshing way of playing for some people but I don’t think it should be the reason the game is balanced.
Proper hero balancing and multiple viable compositions would make for an overall healthier game than bans would. Even if bans are meant to encourage new metas, it’s not going to make BETTER metas or EQUAL metas. GOATS is hard to counter for people right now and if one team is running GOATS with no way to counter, they will lose. A ban system is designed to rock paper scissors before the game begins and that feels wrong. I don’t think a roster of 40 heroes is going to fix the nature of how a ban system will effect a game’s potential outcome. You could be doomed to lose the moment certain heroes are banned because you and your team can’t fight back.
If you want minimum 1 tank and 1 support you also need a maximum 2 tanks and 2 support restriction.
That would get rid of the really unhealthy comps except for quad DPS which would still be terrible.
I don’t think that’s very fair to all the players of Overwatch. If you’re a Damage Player, the game is tilted in your favor. Support and Tank Players would become more frustrated for being forced to play Damage because they were locked out of their favorite role for having too many. If we’re all going to be screwed over, might as well do it equally.
It will not be banned for eternity. It will be banned until devs fix and balance it. It works exactly like a quarantine: OP hero is isolated to prevent making the game frustrating until his problems are cured.
They can do it in any way the want it, not necessarily in the way you described.
Ban will not always force, but sometimes. You are already sometimes forced away from some heroes due to how countering works in the game. For example, no matter how much you love to play Pharah and dislike to play all other heroes - you will be naturally forced not to play her if enemy team has decent Widow and hitscan. And if you ignore that fact then you probably throw the game and became a source of frustration for other players. Switching and ability to play as many heroes as possible is a core value of the game, while one-tricking is totaly unhealthy. Hero banning will work in absolutely the same way: just like enemy team force you to play whatever is needed instead of whatever is wanted by their picks - in the same way the will force you with hero bans. The level of limitation will not be increased. You still will be able to play whatever you want ALL the time in QP, but in competitive you should play whatever is needed, not whatever you want.
Proper balancing is needed. Truly needed. But balance never will be ideal and some comp will always slightly or heavily better than other. Hero banning prevent that.
Hero ban is meant to shape the meta in every single match, not to encourage new global meta. That is a very important difference. It means that meta will be based on opinion of exactly 12 players in the game. If one team is fine playing against Goats, but not fine against Dive - they will ban core heroes for Dive and their enemies will be free to play Goats if they want. Players are different and they will shape the meta for each single game as they want. It works in other games and will work in OW, but only in future with bigger number of heroes.
The game is already works like rock-pepper-scissors. And was so for a long time, tbh.
Your team bans against enemy team, so your team should be sure not to ban something needed for you. The same for enemy team.
If 1 certain banned hero makes your team of 6 players completely doomed it probably means that you team just full of one-dimensional one-tricks that cannot adapt. In that case your defeat will be absolutely deserved. This game is about adapting and you cannot adapt if you can play only one or two heroes.