In the red corner, resting on his laurels regarding Symmetra due to practical experience playing with one as a character that greatly assists her, MrTickles.
In the blue corner, DrFate, Symmetra main and this threads creator, who mains Symmetra and doesn’t have a synergy group on hand regularly.
Lets watch the discussion as they pick each others posts apart, statement by statement, making for a read that causes aneurysms and apoplexy.
Just kidding guys, you know I love ya both, but seriously. Reading through these posts has my eyes seeing after images of your forum icons for minutes after
I see you a lot of these forums, I was wondering do you only play Sym ?
Anyway I appreciate how dedicated you are for Sym even if I may have a different opinion on her state.
I don’t think her primary fire is useless, it is situational though, not saying it’s at its best state, one buff I see is a buff to the charge time.
Level 1 to level 2 should be faster while keeping the level 2 to level 3 as it is, level 1 is useless right now.
Her TP may need faster deploy time.
The turrets are fine, her ult is really underestimated and her orbs are good.
While the rework improved her overall it added other problems, she’s not in a perfect spot but we can fix this easily.
might i add, she can’t shred barriers period. when she’s compeating with heroes like junkrat, who can put out something like 240 dps vs barriers from beyond line of sight, her primary fire numbers are hella short of the mark.
honestly, even the numbers you proposed seem wildly short of making her a threat.
Macree fires roughly 2 shots a second, body shot damage of 70 for baseline dps of 140, head shot doubles that to around 280.
reaper insta-kills 200 health heroes with one head shot and also fires about 2 rounds a second, so point bank head dps is 400+ while body shot is somewhere in the 200 dps range.
So i’d think you could run syms beam at 100 / 200 / 300 and still not be good thanks to the fact that you’re giving everyone else a 2 second head start where you have half their dps in the off chance you live long enough to then roughly match them or finally get to full charge and get a payoff for giving the enemy a head start on killing you.
Just revert her so that sym players aren’t alienated from the hero they loved. They completely ruined the character for many of us and then do changes from there.
They just gave us sombras problem of being super team work dependent to get value. Old sym was better imo. Photon barrier, old gun, and shield gen were fun to use.
Not to any real extreme though. The averages for performance based stats rarely change once you get past a certain sample size. Pickrate on the other hand can vary wildly if variables such as the majority of people who play Sym having hidden profiles.
Then I have a feeling you are using hyperbole and exageration. I have queued as late as 3 in the morning and still found people to play at plat level within 3 minutes.
That was your only saving grace for such a disparity in queue experience. That you were connecting to different server queues.
It is the point actually. You have SPECIFICALLY avoided making teams that would greatly enhance your experience. In effect you are sabotaging your experience by playing a character that flourish’s under the conditions of organized play in solo queue.
Wow, the narrowest chokes did not force you to hug the butt of the Rein. You still have plenty of movement choice when with your Rein, You could easily see and dodge Sym’s orbs. That is a fact, One that you are being willfully obtuse at this point about as evidenced by your next string of replies.
I can count the amount of times I have died to her 2.0 orb on one hand. If a plat player rarely died I highly doubt a GM player commonly died. You are reaching so hard to justify old sym.
Due to your skewed perspective you think a lot of things that are wrong.
Because of the loss in dps for a trade off of something that barely received any value due to the very presence of Mercy. Making sym a wasted slot.
yup, allowed her to survive one extra rein swing at that 7m range. Did not make much difference considering the limitations she had on fighting in the first place.
If you have to fight at armpit range shields are not going to help you.
It did matter if you got it at all though. Which is my point. She almost NEVER got it.
It is the optimal thing to do when there is a large target and/or a barrier. Don’t have many rein’s in gm? That would be the only reason not to use it.
Bias perspective confirmed.
My god. No wonder you think she sucks! Your using her teleporter as a means of going INTO the brawl with your secondary.
You have been essentially telling me that she sucks against a deathball because she has to get to close while at the same time you have been misusing teleporter and using tactics that place you in direct danger by GETTING TO CLOSE.
Not to late to change that bad habit. Instead of trying to dive their back line like an old sym would do you need to adapt to her new role. You are currently trying to use Sym in her old one. Which does not work and would frustrate the hell out of anyone who tried it.
No wonder you are frustrated… you have not adapted your play style to match new sym.
I’m willing to consider this. However, bad positioning would still punish me in plat more often then not still. People in plat are not terrible players. A good majority of them know when to initiate a fight and when to target someone.
It is amazing just how absolute you are in your thinking. This game has far more fluid motion and free thinking then you believe it does. There are no absolutes in this game.
There is no specific position or range that every character must play all the time. To think so is to invite being exploited by the enemy team for your unwillingness to adapt your strategy to counter them.
A zen who is hanging out solo in the backline and getting jumped by tracer and dying constantly is no use to the team. A Zen who decides to move into his team to be protected by them is far more use.
There are no absolutes in this game. It all depends on the situation.
Orbs are huge projectiles that move at 20m a second. She also has a slow. Sounds like she has a decent weapon in the brawl as well.
see previous answer.
Why?
Doubt that. I watch enough owl to know that even the pro’s will have their zen roll with them instead of behind them often enough.
Yes, I know exactly what you said. This is still a rule you made up. The rule being they did not need as much peel. A supposition on your part.
Ironically you just described what old sym could not do. We are not talking about ranged combat here. We are talking about their survival when they end up in a brawl. They have equal mobility and the same healthpool. They both have CC effects. Why is he better in the brawl then her?
Correction. They USE to not be used in fights this way. She has a new found ability to deploy turrets mid fight remember? When thrown properly you can force an enemy to choose between you and your turrets. If they choose you the turrets will have their way with him. If they choose the turrets you have a distraction that allows you to prepare a shot from your secondary.
Sym’s primary is a hitscan. Use it to get a charge off a large target then suddenly you have even more reliable damage then McCree.
That huge “if” is going to come back to bite you. When you charge your weapon it becomes VERY threatening. So much so that it allows you to address danger when it approaches. Especially when you factor in the movement speed of backpedaling while aiming into an approaching enemy.
Maintaining good positioning at the 10-12m Range on a barrier feeds her charge. If rein lowers his shield to quickly approach you you are now eating his face. He will die before he closes that gap.
Loved this post XD. I know me and Dr.Fate are doing a ton of back and forth on this and it can get annoying. But I really do feel like he is underselling the capabilities of Sym to an extreme degree.
That’s the beauty of the forums. You can communicate your ideas freely, and agree, or disagree as you see fit.
I think you both have some valid points, to be honest. There are some points you disagree on, but it’s not like either of you are wrong, just have differing opinions.
Firstly, the reason I’m saying this is to prove that LFG for comp isn’t all that common. The fact that I almost never see any LFG groups for comp is a testament to my belief that the majority of players do not use LFG and do not play in an organized setting
Also personally I think that sym is pretty bad in solo q but decent in organized play. What I want ideally is for her to be decent in solo q and pretty good in organized groups. Not op, not really good, just pretty good. I don’t think that’s unreasonable to want.
Chokes like eichenwalde and hanamura were amazing for this and did make the deathball buddy up for a bit
When did I say that her value against deathball was her killing the enemy behind rein barrier. Seriously no where do is at that the reason she was better against deathball was because she could kill people behind Barriers.
The answer is I didn’t say that. You made up this argument for yourself to debunk. All I said was that she could farm ult off the enemy deathball through chokes. That doesn’t equal me saying she could reliably confirm kills behind the enemy deathball.
She could easily get her ult within the first 25 seaconds of the fight against a deathball, and while the kills you would get with the orbs were very few and far between they offered a lot of good pressure that the new orbs don’t do
Not saying the new orbs are worse they are WAY better in every way except for pressure against a deathball. That is the only thing that the orbs lost. New orbs are better overall, but when looking specifically against sym vs deathball old syms orbs were better for this.
How presumptuous.
“ your wrong cuz I disagree with u”
That’s what this sentence says
Don’t rely on insults, only ppl who lack substance or confidence in their arguments do so
Mercy Rez and sym tp was amazing. Old mercy could save her Rez ult for bigger rezzes while tp brought back the ppl who died alone.
Reworked mercy could save her Rez for safer targets letting those who died in areas unreachable to come back through tp. Symmercy was a one of the best combos that used symmetra
Sym never should be fighting rein anyway. SG helped a lot against heroes like genji and sombra. ( don’t count emp) SG plus photon barrier on E is what made sym less vulnerable then she is now. She was still vulnerable but it wasn’t as bad.
Against deathball she had it every fight and got it pretty fast against dive as well, but no where near as fast when against deathball.
No? Just because there is a rein doesn’t mean it’s best to go up and start beaming.
I don’t think it’s irrational to believe a top 500 sym main over a plat sym player. That’s just me though
This shows to me that you don’t even read my responses. I never said she sucked agaisnt deathball. I even said she was at her strongest agaisnt deathball. What’s the point of even having this discussion if you make up arguments for yourself to debunk.
You would think of this were the case I would drop in rank.
New syms play style is not to charge up the beam and start rushing in. That may be an aspect of her kit that can work and has its time to shine but that is not the bread and butter and certainly not her main playstyle.
You really dont get punished for bad positioning in plat very much. It’s one of the reasons mercy is so SO easy to play there ( mercy main btw) they don’t punish your positioning very much and mercy gets basically free reign. I play pistol mercy and Amy only widow in play for fins and the fact that I don’t get punished sends off some alarms for me. The difference in positioning punishment is night and day
The interesting conversation that this entails is that perhaps sym is not in a terrie spot down there. But she is in high ranks. This poses an interesting problem. One that old sym had aswell ( such a good rework am I right? )
I wonder if my proposed changes to sym would make her too good in lower ranks but balanced in high level play, because if so that isn’t really balanced. I don’t think this is the case however. I don’t really think my proposed changes would make her unbalanced in plat and below she might become a great pick but not op, and she would become a decent pick higher up
That is my hope anyways.
Agreed
There are certain basic things that you follow. For example zen shouldn’t be frontlining in front rein ever.
I do agree that sometimes you can get closer to the team fight and your team, but going close to your team doesn’t mean going to the middle of the brawl.
Again, you can’t theow out a turret and equate it to flashbang. Mcree’s Gun is instantaneous while symmestras takes time to charge up and has a travel time. Mcrees stun is a thousand times better in a brawl then the turrets unless you already have them set up before hand. It’s not like mcree is light years ahead of sym in terms of surviving a brawl and dive. But mcree has the option to also be on the high ground and have high impact where as sym isn’t nearly as good on that high ground. Mcree doesn’t really enter brawls because he’s usually above the fight.
Different sample sizes. You can’t sample 100 people in Canada and find they have a ratio of 1:5 in people who like ice cream to people who don’t and then compare that to a ratio of US citizens of 1:8 if you sample 300 ppl
Mcree and zen aren’t picked a lot more. So they lose a bunch more games, have a lot more bad games, have a lot more games where their players do bad etc
This als works in the opposite. They have more games where they win, where they do better etc
A lot more games means a lot more results. You can not compare ratios without equal sample sizes otherwise they hold zero merit. This is the kinda stuff you do in grade 9 math.
Owl is a completely different ball ahem entirely. There the zen can get killed in the blink of an eye because of pitch perfect aim.
Well can you name me one other dps besides sym that needs as much peel as zen?
His CC is near instantaneous while syms can be destroyed before deployed, be destroyed as they deploy on the ground, and can be destroyed mid CC effect. And it’s incredibly easy to kill them.
No one dives a sym and is like “ look out sym has her CC that can prove to be an issue”
No one says that
No tracer has to worry about sym throwing down turrets mid fight because it’s laughable
While she does have to worry about flashbang
Not really, you can kill them before the sym has a chance to capitalize on it. You can melee it and it does. Any hero in this game can kill it in under 1.5 seconds.
Due to how her gun works this isn’t the case. It has a terrible tick rate. There’s a pretty good detailing the tick rate issue and how this effects her consistent dps. It’s actually an issue complained about a lot because they needed the tick rate on the gun making it very unreliable
Firstly the enemy can push into you while you are charging it up, and also she does become a glass cannon once fully charged but I don’t believe her good dps helps her from getting run over from the enemy engagement because she’s is so close to the enemy frontline. If she was farther back then I’d agree, but she’s so close the enemy frontlines that she is liable to be tampled on before the glass cannon idea pays off.
Yup. According to overbuff Only 16% of the total player base stayed public. Which will have an adverse effect on anyone who shows preference to a hero people would SPECIFICALLY target with toxic behavior due to their perceptions. Unless you want to claim Sym was not targeted heavily by toxic behavior (which would be a lie) it is safe to assume more sym’s have stayed private then other more “acceptable” picks.
This at least we can agree on. I still think you are underselling Sym’s abilities even in a Solo queue environment but this is a fair goal.
Her orb was to obvious and easy to spot regardless of choke. Sure, you may get lucky and pull it off one them once. But once they realized your angle(s) they knew what to look for. An orb every 2 seconds from X direction.
Which only furthers my point that it had no value whatsoevel considering how bad her ult was.
If it did not get kills (glad we agree on this front) and her ult was TERRIBLE what value did it have at all?
Glad we are on the same page here as well. However I think you are looking at this very narrowly. Yes, Her orbs are worse against a deathball. That is why you use her BEAM against it. The orbs and the beam switched roles. Beam use to be dueling weapon but now the orb is. Orb use to be the deathball weapon but now the Beam is.
not an insult to tell someone they are wrong.
By your own admission you primarly play in solo where she is less impactful. This skews your perspective by quite a bit. Utility in general has less impact when the team does not utilize it.
Great, we have been brought back to the point faster but we are lacking in dps and healing because of the sym pick…sure sounds like a GREAT combo there. /s
That was her problem. Her utility was not impactful enough to warrant picking her over the lost DPS and/or healing. With her now increased damage AND utility she now warrants a spot on the team far more then old sym ever did in any situation.
Sym is LESS vulnerable now because she does not need to engage on someones armpit to participate in a fight. Her SG and Projected barrier were only needed BECAUSE of the 7m engagement range. Now that it is essentially doubled on her primary and her secondary can now actually be used as a means of fighting someone at all her vulnerability is lessened.
As for never fighting Rein? you are right. Old sym would not have lived very long and in fact did not live very long. New sym on the other hand can engage him at range.
Your last statement was in regards to whether the teleporter fooled the enemy or not. Not whether she got the ult to begin with. My point being that her teleporter almost never got value. Which made it all but worthless regardless of how fast you generated it.
If you have the cover and range it does mean it is time to charge. Especially if we are talking about the footsie battle before the main engagement. Which gives you ample enough time to charge and have it ready for when the true fight begins.
But it is. Disregarding one persons perspective in favor of another solely based on a number is by its very nature irrational.
You said she was WORSE against deathball now in comparison to 2.0
See? I am not the one forgetting the string of the conversation here.
Agreed. Glad I never said to “rush in”. You hold your spacing in a disciplined manner and charge your beam. You keep disregarding the range and thinking in old sym tactics. Old sym required you to “rush in” to use her beam. New sym does not. Charge your beam AT RANGE and continue a backpedal on any advancement the enemy tries to make.
We can both agree that her DPS in general is not the “bread and butter” of her kit and playstyle. In fact we both agreed her utility is where he main impact comes from. However, that does not make this option a bad one.
One of the most mobile hero’s in the game as a example of disciplined positioning? This is like talking about Tracer’s positioning in the DPS slot. Mercy is far more about proper movement then it is about proper positioning. Which makes her by nature far more difficult to punish.
We are talking about positioning in the context of low mobility hero’s. Which require far more position discipline then that of a hero that has high mobility.
Agreed. Glad I never said he did nor did I indicate that sym does either. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying when I talk about moving into your team. I mean moving in AMONGST them. Not AHEAD of them.
It can if it means better protection. Being in the middle of the group can often save your life. It can make it easier for your teammates to react to the danger you are in. It can make less likely for you to be singled out or isolated from your team. These are things that a deathball comp offer and why sym can and does do well in them. Because they offer the protection that standing alone (like old sym often required) does not.
I agree that its not the same cast time. However, her’s cannot miss. His can.
Charging up? Yes. Travel time is not an issue though at the closer ranges we are talking about though.
His is a better reaction based stun but that does not make hers worthless as a mid fight tactic out right just because of that distinction. Her pre-setup helps stall and make things easier for her team but she can also use the terrain to setup a turret around a corner she is kiting her enemy around and she can do it MID fight.
At the further ranges? Yes. Once again you are correct. But she can still take high ground and either beam people down below or orb from there as well. But once again we are not talking about other situations where they are on the high ground. We are talking about scenarios that force both sym and McCree into brawls which do happen more often then people think.
Sample sizes in general have diminishing returns the more people you place in them. It is true that 100 compared to 300 would have less accuracy. However, once we are talking about 10,000 or even 100,000 people sampled the performance based statistics tend to level out long before those numbers are reached.
Such is the case with Overwatch with such a large playerbase. Which makes your statement of…
Only correct if both sample sizes are small enough to create heavy variation in the results. Large sample sizes even if disproportionate to each other tend to be highly accurate.
I would be willing to bet that if I sampled 10,000 sym players performance and then compared that to a sample of 100,000 samples of sym players performance that they would likely be very close to each other in numbers.
As opposed to GM where clearly they all wiff all the time? Wut?
Sym IS the example of a DPS that needs more peel then sym. Can you name me one support that needs as much peel as zen? It does not require I offer another DPS as Sym is the proof in of herself.
Which like I said earlier provides a distraction for her to act on (not to mention her teammates). As for being incredibly easy to kill. That is subjective to the hero we are talking about. Genji, Moira, Rein, Brig, Doomfist, Reaper, Ana, Zen, and Tracer all have difficulties dislodging them once they are deployed and mid fight if they are being deployed PROPERLY for that fight can make a huge difference in how long it takes for them to react.
Disagreed. A turret or multiple turrets can really mess with Tracer’s ability to engage on an enemy at optimal range.
Which is EXACTLY my point. 1.5 seconds is enough time to charge and fire a weapon. 1.5 seconds is also enough time to deploy MORE turrets, 1.5 seconds is even enough time to deploy a TP and GET AWAY.
1.5 second is a long time.
Tick rate may effect the damage but it does not change the fact that her damage is instant on firing. There is no delay between firing and contact. This makes it a hitscan weapon.
Yes they can do this. But charging into me out of fear of allowing me the time to charge a primary means they are no longer looking for a pick but leaving themselves open. Especially Rein who would have to lower his barrier to move fast enough to close in on me. Which does what for your team? Makes an opening. So you either apply pressure by forcing them to lower their shield before the four seconds is up or you apply pressure by getting it charged up. Win/ win on that one.
12m’s is pretty far back when considering the deathball like playstyle. Especially when factoring in her slow.
This was the purpose of the lock-on, wasn’t it? To excel at close range? Make up for a lackluster secondary? Like a flail or a hammer or whatever else that doesn’t rely on aim, it still had a valuable place in this game.
Sym would be in an instantly better place with that.
With new sym out most op though she would be really good for a while so I think sym mains would be proud ( at least until ppl started calling her a troll pick again)
Yay
If you spammed it in the same angle then they would get used to it but it didn’t really take much to mix it up. You only really needed two or three hits on 2 or more ppl to get it
I don’t think her ult was terrible
Also the pressure they created was amazing
I don’t really consider the beam as a reliable option to rely on very often. It’s partially because it’s bad itself with the charge time but also her lack of survivabity and lack of options to provide pressure to stop her from being trampled all over
This combo worked well with self sustaining heroes. Ones with options to heal themselves or hard to kill heroes
Also while sym is indeed better at dishing out damage I think her worse survivability makes her still hard to fit in a team comp
Her beam range is longer but it isn’t like you should be using it to fight heroes anyways and the range the orbs give doesn’t off set the health difference and the lack of protection with new sym
I’m way more scared of mcree now because I can’t block his flashbang anymore
I think that’s a big hyperbole
I think we are back at the rank issue with this one because footsie battles don’t really last long at all the higher you go until they become almost non existent
This makes it hard to try and talk about her. That’s my big issue with her aswell. She becomes very different depending on where you reside in the ladder which was what the rework aimed to fix
If I was disacussing basketball with my friends and I was arguing with them about the effectiveness of a strat and I was saying I think it sucked and all the NBA players agreed I would lean more toward the NBA players opinion
Her being worse agaisnt it doesn’t equal her being bad agaisnt it
What you quoted doesn’t show me saying she’s bad agaisnt deathball
12m isn’t that long
Then let’s use sym 2.0. Idk how easy she is now in plat but when 2.0 was out and Inwas plat sym was so SO easy. You didnt get punished very much at all. It’s something I always notice when playing Down their. I mean I shouldn’t get away with frontlining as smg widow but it works. The punishment of enemy positioning is a very underdevoped skill in those ranks when compared to some other basic skills.
Yes ik I was just providing a really extreme example
It doesn’t really mean that. Going into the middle of the bloodbath spells Death for heroes not equiped for that environment. Brigitte thrives in the bloodbath. Zen does not.
In the chaos and hectic nature of team fights it could make it harder. reaper is going to find it real tough to fight whoever he’s fighting while also having to keep attention on zen who he has to find through the chaos and stalk him because without constant protection because zen does not last long in the middle of a brawl. It’s just somewhere he doesn’t want to be
There are brawl comes and deathball comps. Those are two separate things.
Also old sym was better in a brawl style because if her photon barrier shield and auto aim. Bloodbaths on the point were pretty decent for her as she could dish out constant damage and could sustain a bit better
His isn’t hard to miss. Sym turrets doesn’t equal the same cc as flashbang in a duel or fight if they aren’t put up before hand
The movement speed does matter agaisnt some heroes
Agreed, once set up they are pretty good. I’m just saying if a tracer comes up to you in the back and your turrets are present elsewhere or not at all she can’t use them like a mcree stun and expect it to do anything
When looking at vulnerability it’s clear that mcrees flash is much better for helping this area then syms cc is.
Her beam isn’t that long
Mcree doesn’t get forced into this situation as much because he has the high ground option that sym doesn’t and even when pushed off he can stand farther back to shoot into the fight where sym has to get a bit closer already making her more liable to get sucked in
Now when both a sucked in mcree has a slight edge due to flashbang.
with different sr areas having different stats I would say there is a difference. Ex lucio does more heals the lower down you go. So if you sampled a lot of lucio mains of all sr things would look wired when meshing the bronze lucio players and the gm lucio mains. Then try to compare him to another hero with pickrates 5 times his amount and things start to get really scewed
Even in gm the games are very different. I had the privilege of playing with multiple OWL players at once where both sides had like 4 different OWL players ( sr range was way higher then my measly 4120 but that’s late night ques for ya) and the games was so different.
OWL exists in its own separate place, we cannot model starts off them because it’s so different. In gm at least the other heroes have a chance to peel for zen but that don’t need happen in OWL
I said besides sym. There is no other dps that needs as much peel as zen because that’s just bad design
Besides brig and Moira all it takes is a quick flick shot taking literally one second maybe less if your fast and it’s Gone
They are better once deployed because you can tailor them to the environment better but they aren’t good when thrown about during a fight because they are easy to detect and kill
If the turrets are set up yes but if they aren’t sym can’t just throw them out during the fight and expect them to last long enough to even begin to shoot
Got ajes linger then that. Also it’s max 1.5 and also the enemy can capitalize in the time it takes for her to throw out the turret aswell. It’s a two way street.
Most travers will kill you before you can throw down the turrets.
If someone is on your tail and currently fighting you throwing turrets down is a weak option
The difference is if they do push up then you are going to die unless they are re terrible at focus fire and target lrioritization because yes they will be forced to push into you but pushing into a team who has a sym within 12m if the frontlines is like taking candy from a baby
It’s favourable to push in in that situation
With slot he movement abilities and range plus the turrets being easily dispatched amd the limitation of always having to stay in 12m means that it isn’t to hard to catch her.
There are only so many angles to spam into a choke. If people are aware that sym exists it was easy to dodge regardless of the angle. The only hope is the initial surprise that anyone even chose her to begin with. Once that moment was past though it was all over.
We’ll agree to disagree then. I never felt protected by her SG nor did I feel relieved to see a Teleporter over that of a mercy rez.
60 dps was not pressure. It was support ult feeding.
It only takes 4 seconds. Which is not hard when going up against slow moving comps like deathball.
The pressure is her beam itself. It is a continuous beam that will NEVER stop as long as the barrier is held up and even when it drops you have 10 full seconds of sustained damage before you have to reload. The amount of damage it applies once charged can melt a Rein on its own in just over 2 seconds. Factor in any other damage being applied by your teammates and you have a dead tank in less then a second.
The range of the weapon itself allows you to prevent yourself from being trampled. As I have said over and over again she does not need to be right on top of her target to apply damage with it. 12m is more then enough space to give you time to anticipate a push.
Being hard to kill only works well on attack where you need higher sustain to win against your enemies. Attack was Sym 2.0 worst scenario.
On defense you need to secure kills consistently to force the enemy to reset. Having low dps and high sustain works against that goal
So neither worked well sym 2.0
Her survivability is higher now though. Having higher damage output and a much longer range means she is in a far less risky position. Especially when compared to her old primary range and lack of a consistent ranged tool. She has longer range with her primary and now has a weapon that can be used at mid range as well.
Once again, subjective to situation. Charged off Barrier? Then absolutely use her beam to fight hero’s. You will MELT any hero you come up against. Not charged up? Use your secondary.
It does though. You are able to take better advantage of the cover your team provides as well as the terrain. Slow orbs all but required you to be peeking the enemy at very close range as betting on long range orbs was a gamble that you lost more often then not. 7m primary required you be in every hero’s range to deal any sort of damage.
The difference is HUGE. She survives much more consistently. She went from the hero with middle of the pack survival rates to just barely out of the top five in hero survivability after her change.
Most McCree even at Plat level knew how to bait out a projected barrier first. In fact I rarely felt the need to stun her at all. Shooting her and maintaining a distance of 7m+ was easy enough. McCree’s essentially did not waste their stuns on a Sym unless there was nothing else to use it on.
Think it all you want but I almost never felt relieved to have one on my team. Why? Because we either lost the team fight to quickly for it to matter due to lack of heals and/or dps or it was destroyed because it placed in a spot that actually would have made a difference if it was not discovered.
That was the problem with 2.0 teleporter. Place it where it made an actual difference it died before much value would be gained from it. Place it where it could survive consistently and you might as well have walked from spawn or been speedboosted by lucio.
In addition it caused stagger by its nature the few times it got full use. People would trickle into the point instead of waiting for a regroup for the retake (because what advantage does a teleporter offer you if getting back to the point faster is not the goal?)
Rez and Lucio speedboost were just better options all around.
I am more then willing to believe there may be less opportunity to charge. However, I still do not see how four seconds is rarely available to be used even at the higher ranks. I have skrimed at the higher levels (Masters) myself several times and I have seen plenty of footsie play during those skrims.
New and effective strategies do not solely come from players at “nba” levels though. OWL teams have coaches that come up with team synergies and strategies despite not being able to play at OWL level themselves. Why? Because you do not need to be good at the game in practice to understand the fundamentals and pro levels of good play.
A person at plat can understand the requirements and strategies of GM play without having the in practice skill to get there. I admit I am an average player. But you should not discount my perspectives just because of that factor alone. You should consider that perhaps since my perspective on Sym is less influenced by the habbits that the previous iteration of Sym created that perhaps I may have found something that works that you have not considered.
She was bad against it before. Which means being worse at it now MAKES it suck even more.
Yes. It does.
Niether is it that close. Its long enough to get the job done.
Sorry but this is absolute hog wash. This is BRONZE tier behavior not plat. I think this an over reach on your part to find some way to excuse the points I am making.
An extreme example that has no application to what we are actually talking about.
First off, We are not talking about where a hero thrives. We are talking about what can be viable and/or needed to succeed. Naturally Zen WANTS to be further back if he can. That is not what we are debating. We are talking about whether or not being in close can be done and is done. Which it can and is done often. In fact many scenario’s require or create a better situation for Zen if he is in close.
Ironically brig benefits zen really well so he can survive a brawl quite well. The power of having all that armor under 150 regenerative shields makes him quite sturdy. Which points out that whether or not staying back is the best idea is highly dependent on the comp. A Zarya might be better able to protect Zen if he is closer, Moira may be better able to heal him and keep him alive if he is close, and the list goes on.
Yes, hero’s have ranges they prefer. But that does not mean they are locked to it or that they cannot and do not operate well enough in other positions relative to the fight.
Rigid absolute thinking like this is what prevents people from finding solutions to issues they are facing.
Once again, Subjective to the fight.
Yes, and we are talking about the latter. Not the former.
Glad we agree. His is not hard to miss with.
They may not equal the same cc (never claimed they did) but they do offer a option of CC and Distraction which can and does benefit sym mid fight.
At longer ranges yes? Close range? Not a real factor.
Once again, subjective. the key difference between flash and the slow of sym’s turrets is one is instantaneous but lasts for a very brief moment. You miss that flash or the follow up and that is that. Your potential advantage is gone and it is Tracer’s fight to lose.
Sym on the other hand has three separate attempts that slow tracer continuously. Yes they take longer to deploy but not even the best tracers can clear all three (if spaced properly during midfight deploy) before they get slowed and Sym gets a charged shot off.
Yes, McCree has some more instant impact. but sym has a higher margin for error then him.
Most high ground is not that tall.
Already explained why this is not entirely accurate.
Yes, Because you are looking for the average. Which is performance based. We are not talking about performance based on tiers though are we? Even if we were it would still be the same principal I am talking about. I am willing to bet that if I sampled 10,000 bronze lucio performances and then compared it to 100,000 bronze lucio’s the numbers would remain within a very near margin of error. Why? because once you get beyond a certain sample size the returns for more accurate data diminish to the point of no actual return.
It still speaks to the point I am making. Zen can survive in the center of his team even in the most extreme cases provided the situation calls for it. This is not restricted to owl just because you say so.
I know you said besides sym. Thus the reason I put capitals on “IS”. You don’t need another DPS to have similar design or positioning mechanic to prove the first one is fine having it. That is like saying “prove that an egg is good when scrambled by showing me another egg that is good when scrambled.” That is not how fair comparison works.
Rein cannot even reach well placed turrets and neither can brig. McCree would take a minimum of 1.5 seconds to remove all three turrets not accounting for the shift between turret positions to aim. Junkrat may be able to remove one instantly with a mine but nades are pretty difficult to place on a turret that is frying you. Zen has the same problem as McCree. Shotguns suck at any range outside of kissing the turrets so roadhog, reaper, and doomfist all have issues, and the list goes on.
Her turrets take a lot of effort for MANY hero’s to dislodge due to there health in combination with the weapons the enemy has to clear them.
They are better once deployed. We can agree to this. However that does not make it BAD or to use your words “aren’t good” to deploy them mid fight. I am not talking about spamming them around in an instant haphazardly either. I am talking about calculated spacing and range that makes it difficult to address them. if one is place 8m to a tracers left mid fight and another just after it at 7m to their left and then another 5m’s on the wall behind them tracer is not going to be able to get them all in one clip without blinking.
She’ll expend considerable resource to kill them and even then she will not likely get them all if you place them in a smart way instead of in a clumsy way.
Like I said. Subjective to the situation. I am not speaking in absolutes here like you are. Hero dependent. All of this is hero dependent. it can work and often does. I am not saying it will work everytime because if it did it would be BROKEN. But it does work if you practice your placement’s, timing, and positioning.
Cool, lets push in boys! They have a sym! Oh wait…turrets.
It is not favorable to push into a sym who is in proper position and is using the protection of her team.
The turrets are not easily dispatched by a large portion of the roster. Basing your argument over how “easy” it is to kill them is flawed from the start because the turrets take time to kill now.
The only hero’s that have little difficulty are high burst single shots and/or broad aoe. Any low burst chip damage or high burst multi pellet damage and they are considerably difficult to dislodge.
The Teleporter was more for the healers in your group, rather than everyone else. Your tanks can sustain for a bit without healing if they time abilities right, they can usually stall long enough for the healer to use the TP to get back to the fight to top everyone off again.
I’m not saying that’s the way it worked out in QP, everyone just took it if it was up, but smart teams utilized it to get their squishies back in a hurry.
That’s what she said… bwahaha
Actually, by my reckoning, if Rein (with a jump swing) and Brig (with a flail, or jump swing) can’t reach the turrets, the turrets are up too high to do any good. The turrets range is only 10m, and if a turret is outside of their reach at 7m plus, that means that it can only track a person for 3m before they’re out of range. A turret with only a 3m range isn’t very scary, and with them placed that high, there’s no way that 3 turrets could hit the same target unless they were basically on top of each other, which would make them easy to take out with a soldier helix rocket or a bomb from Junkrat, or any other number of explosive attacks.
The entire roster, minus Reinhardt and Brigitte can punch the turrets to dispatch them. It’s very easy to punch. We all do it, all the time. What makes her turrets so difficult to dispatch in this scenario you speak of?
Turrets take no more time to kill than a singular punch, which is instant. If you’re firing at the turret, most characters can take one out in .2 seconds. .2 seconds to put an ability on a 10s cooldown.
The issue with this Blasphemy is that it once again brings up the question:
“What if we had a second healer instead of Sym? Would that healer have been more likely to have survived if there was a second healer who could have topped them off?”
or if she took a DPS slot
“What if we had more damage to kill targets as they came in? Perhaps the support would not have died.”
or if it took the tank slot
“What if we had an off tank that could have stepped in to cover for our main tank while they refreshed their cd/resources? Perhaps our support would not have died if we had a second tank instead of Sym?”
That was the issue she ran into overall. Yes, the teleporter saw some value. But that value did not override the cost of losing a teammate in the first place most of the time as it was still a 10 second respawn. A lot can go down in 10 seconds. I would much rather have had another dps/healer/tank over sym 2.0 for these reasons.
XD
The question is not whether they can reach one of them. The question is can they reach ALL of them. The answer is no most of the time due to any decent sym 3.0 placing them at 7m+ in multiple directions. Not to mention you do not need to place them at 7m+ vertically. 7m+ horizontally works really well too. Which means in order for a Rein or Brig to clear all three turrets they would have to traverse 14m+ at minimum WHILE slowed to get them.
being outside of melee range makes that rather difficult don’t you think? Especially factoring in the slow being applied?
I assumed you meant vertically when you were talking about range, because horizontal range is moot, it would still be in range of a melee character. Brig jump bash would have her closing distance quickly, as would a Rein charge if it were on the horizontal plane rather than the vertical.
Any other character really wouldn’t miss the turret on the wall, and take it out from a range greater than 7 meter anyway.
Which also goes on to say, that if your turrets are that far away from the enemy, practical use really isn’t being made of them. A turret that isn’t damaging anyone isn’t doing anything positive for the team, unless you’re attempting to thwart flankers or deny an area.
A lot of resources being wasted just to get rid of a single turret… and still 2 more to deal with afterwards.
Subjective to the walls we are talking about here. Many walls do not have access but to go through it first before you even have a chance to shoot them.
Oasis for example. The stage where you have the giant hole in the middle (name escapes me at the moment). If you place a turret on either end at roughly the 6m-8m range of the walls that split the point from the enemy teams approach they would have to commit fully into that choke before seeing these turrets. Even further they would have to then traverse a long distance in both directions to even deal with either of them if they do not have the right weapon for the job.
There are numerous examples of places this works. Almost every map in fact.
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