Syms balance from a high level sym main and how to fix her

[DrFate-11148]

This is so true it hurts me

[Carver-11965]

Well before she had her proton barrier so she could protect herself from immediate burst damage. That was as good as fade in terms of abilities that help you survive things, and on top of that you could extend it for your team mates. I used to be able to save my team from a Dva bomb or a Pharah Ult with my proton barrier, and now I can… Do nothing.

If Teleporter didn’t get destroyed every two seconds, or lasted more than the blink of an eye, it might actually be useful. If it didn’t take five years to build and use so that the enemy has long since killed you by the time the portal opens up, it might be a valid option for escape. As it is, it’s a barely functional ‘Haha I put Orisa up high, tee-hee!’ meme, which isn’t going to win you any games.

I mean, hell, her previous TP ultimate was basically Resurrection for 6 people! That’s amazing compared to 10 second wall of… wall. Even her ult utility is pulled into question because her old ult brought teammates back to a certain location and her new ult helps them survive team fights. Both are valid utility, but they are DIFFERENT and provide different quantifiable value.

[SandyK1LL-2429]

i’d say losing 2.0 Photon Barrier was the worst thing to happen to her but that simply isn’t true.

I miss the wavy beam. I miss the piercing orbs. I miss the shield Gen. I miss the old TP. Torb mains should be very afraid.

[DrFate-11148]

Shield Gen was amazing

It gave symmetra constant and consistent value that made up for her lack of consistent value in her other aspects

[Firellius-2695]

It should’ve been shown on ally HUDs so they could play around it and protect it, and its shields provided should’ve been tracked so people could figure out how damn useful it was!

[Blasphemy-1121]

I miss being able to pick up the corpses of my foes and toss them off the map.

I miss being able to grab every single book in Volskaya starting point and run at the enemy with the whole wad blocking my visibility, and theirs.

I miss having 275 effective HP, and then having a Torb throw out an armor pack, and then having 350 effective HP.

I loved going into a fight with those 350 hp and then melting faces with my beam powered up, laughing maniacally as I did so.

Now all I get to do is chuckle when I drop a TP bomb behind Zenyatta, and watch him melt away.

[Kigo-11337]

had no idea Bastion was underpowered.

It is not that Bastion is underpowered. It is that his power comes from not being mobile but staying in place. Which makes him critically weak to Hanzo with his OP Storm Arrow and Pharah with her rockets.

He is also picked apart by good Zenyatta, Widowmaker, McCree, Mei, and surprisingly Junkrat players who are good at pop-in-pop-out cover sniping. Considering that all of these heroes have at some point been meta over the last duration it makes Bastion ‘seem’ weak.

Next, in certain circumstances Reaper and Doomfist can also wreck a Bastion if surprise is on their side.

Then you have interactions such as Roadhog’s hook or Sombra’s hack that can make Bastion lose his stationary strong dps form, and Lucio and Brig boops which can send a non-stationary Bastion flying into pits.

So as I was saying, the problem isn’t Bastion’s damage output, it’s how vulnerable his output makes him. But this vulnerability is actually part of what makes him and Sym 3.0 such a great duo since she can apply the mobility for him. Even better if they can get a shield tank or two and a Sombra able to hack a closeby teleport 200 hp spawn (such as Lijiang’s Pagoda map).

[SandyK1LL-2429]

I very rarely work with Bastion but I think I could help with some good plays with my wall and TP. Sym and Bastion sound like they’re very similar in that they need a team to work well.

[Kigo-11337]

I very rarely work with Bastion but I think I could help with some good plays with my wall and TP. Sym and Bastion sound like they’re very similar in that they need a team to work well.

It is not so much that they need a team to work well since I have managed wins while hard carrying terrible teams. I’ve actually had a few 5 gold medal matches as Bastion without any shields or heals being given to me, and I had one game where I got 4 golds as Sym and won even while two teammates were deliberately standing around emoting instead of playing because they wanted to throw.

But, if the enemy skill is even remotely close to your own, a good team is much more necessary than say for a Hanzo, Tracer, Genji, Pharah, Soldier or pretty much any other dps. So I would put it that they both shine brighter in good teams but are hidden gems with the possibility to shine with the right care even in bad ones.

[Blasphemy-1121]

Symmetra and Bastion have incredible synergy and teamplay opportunities.

Putting a TP down allows him to be mobile without needing to transform, and turrets offer him protection from flankers looking to hit his critical spot. Symmetras ult allows Bastion to punish the enemy without fear of a head on attack. In most cases, he will kill whatever walks his way before they can kill him.

Meanwhile, while their attention is focused on Bastion, Symmetra is lobbing alt fire towards the person attempting to close. This distracts the enemy and the enemy has a choice, both of which are wrong. You can continue after the Bastion (who will use TP to increase range) or you can go after the Symmetra, which is going to allow the Bastion to fill you with lead.

As I said, those two synergize well with one another. The only detriment is a lack of shielding to prevent sniping attacks. A sniper can take out a teleporter relatively quickly, leaving Bastion with no escape mechanism, and easy pickings for the sniper, or any of the other teammates. Adding an Orisa to the mix is a huge boon to the entire group.

[Protonhunter-1920]

The only problem is that requires a level of team communication not found in QP or even Comp. this would require a coach and practice to pull off.

[Blasphemy-1121]

level of team communication not found in QP or even Comp

I wouldn’t go that far. Just talking with your team on voice comms is typically sufficient for pulling this strategy off.

I’ve done the teleporter/bastion thing many a time.

[MrTickles-1464]

When you factor in TRASH DAMAGE you realise sym doesnt do very much impactful dps.

Because impact is not solely created by ones dps capabilities. I would also love to see some supporting numbers for how much trash damage she does. Especially considering she gets more elims then Junkrat but does 3k less damage on average.

Many high tier sym mains actually regard her as utility support.

Which she does have a ton of utility I agree. Her dps is icing on the cake for this.

She cant fit into a team as a dps because she doesnt provide enough.

Depends on who else is with her hero wise. If you bring hero’s that can take full advantage of her slow, her teleporter, and can act on the burst damage she is capable of it she brings more then enough.

I know I am not some god like GM player but I have a trio comp I play with. One of which is a sym main. We paired roadhog and mei with her and it is just glorious to watch sym work in that environment.

Being able to pull people into sentries, slow people down with both mei and sym, wall people off from their teams, and use the teleporter to make up for the lack of mobility that mei and roadhog suffer from makes the impact of all three hero’s much higher.

Symmetra is also as vulnerable as zen no joke. She is easily divable and flanked and is not scary to fight at all. Shes flimsy and weak which limits what she can do. How can she provide dps to help her team and protect the supports when she can’t protect herself?

Her strength is primarily against deathball comps. She also typically plays better in one herself so everyone can protect each other better. Dive is her weakness and I do not see that as a problem.

Her best value comes from tp. The issue is that 90 percent of the time your team wont use it properly. So it only works 10 percent of the time. But you dont even get to use your tp for your team often anyway because you need it to run away because your so flimsy

In solo queues you are absolutely correct. People typically do not know how to utilize teleporter in that environment. Unless of course you tell them the plan a head of time and they agree. In which case it can work quite well.

However, at least in more organized play where there are three stacks and above communication becomes easier and being in a stack yourself tends to create a higher tendency for your actions to create follow through from any solo’s on your team. People like to follow the crowd and if you have a large portion of your team already walking together others tend to do the same.

Shes hard to integrate into a team, is super vulnerable and her best value is rarely ever achievable. Shes just as bad against dove but worse agaisnt deathball.

Cannot disagree more. Deathball is the best comp to play her against. Especially if it has a Rein and/or brig in it as she can create denial with her turrets for those two which would require their other teammates to shift focus from you and your team to the turrets so they can move forward.

Not to mention her primary which is admittedly not her best weapon actually does shine against it due to ample amount of barrier’s to feed off of when holding choke points.

She cant shred barriers because she cant get close enough to beam the barrier because she is so vuonerable. Its like telling zen to frontline to hit the barrier. He doesnt want to be that close and neither does sym. Because shes so vulnerable she can’t really be in the middle of the fight. She doesnt want to be in the brawl.

Save that a 12m range is not in the middle of the brawl but on the inner edge of mid range combat. She does not have to stand right in front of them to fight them as she once did. She can actually use her primary from the safety of her team or use high ground to be less accessible.

As demonstrated here:

Way out of the range of Rein and even able to stay out of the mei ult while doing it. Sym does not have to play front line. She can play in the mid range.

Her primary is also terrible . Look at mei. Meis secondary fire is good at mkd range. But its not that good in closer ranges. So her primary fire covers for her secondaries weakness. It is good at close rnage but useless in mid ranges. See how meis two versions of firing cover for each others weaknesses. One excels in mid range but is bad at close range and the other excels at close range but sucks at mid range. They cover for each other. Thats why multiple versions of firing your gun exists.

I think you MEI be confused about the functionality of Mei’s primary and alt fire. Her primary is not meant for confirming kills at close range but rather setting up for follow up by her secondary. Remove Mei’s secondary and suddenly you would find Mei impotent and unable to contribute in the damage numbers at all.

Her secondary doubles as both a ranged and close range weapon. Her primary only functions as a low health finisher or cc setup for her secondary.

Her secondary does NOT suck at close range any more then Hanzo’s arrows suck at close range.

But syms orbs are good at midrange but not too good at close range. Especially agaisnt flankers. She isnt going to win close range fights with her orbs too often.

Her orbs may not be the best dueling tool but I would hardly say they are bad at close range. In fact it is what sym uses to win duels if she finds herself in one.

Sym is not designed to be a duelist or to fight in split comps. She rely’s on the cover of her team and provides utility to her team to act upon. That is where her impact is.

As for flankers, her weakness is dive. I do not see a problem with that.

Her primary is arguable WORSE in close range and useless anywhere else. This is just bad character design.

If played into a deathball comp it arguably becomes the best part of her kit. In less organized play sadly real deathball comps do not arise as much due to people having varying playstyles. However, in organized play where people are grouping up more consistently and a Rein/Orisa barrier is valued more sym gets increasing returns on her primary fire.

The ability to apply constant pressure as opposed to burst damage on a barrier is actually quite potent. It creates a lose/lose situation for a barrier tank. Keep your barrier up and you feed her, lower your barrier and she is applying damage straight to your face.

Sure its good once charged but as I said above she cant get in range to charge it off barriers

12m’s is not hard to reach.

[DrFate-11148]

Because impact is not solely created by ones dps capabilities

Agreed, which is why I specified that she doesn’t do much consistent dps,

I would also love to see some supporting numbers for how much trash damage she does. Especially considering she gets more elims then Junkrat but does 3k less damage on average.

There are no stats to track trash damage as what is trash damage depends on each specific game

Trying to use stats for this purpose will result in skewed perspectives, I could try and play your game of using stats and twist your stats to my favour by saying “ the stats you provide would point to her not doing too much trash damage, but instead she is acting much like Moira in that she’s just get credit for kills she barely helped in” i wont try to argue that because using stats are dumb besides pickrate and MAYBE win rates. ( big maybe)

Which she does have a ton of utility I agree. Her dps is icing on the cake for this.

She’s regarded as utility dps because she doesn’t do enough dps to actually be considered a dps character. Also she was considered a utility support by many top tier sym mains before her rework and look how that turned out

you bring hero’s that can take full advantage of her slow, her teleporter, and can act on the burst damage she is capable of it she brings more then enough.

You mean if you get good corrdinated teammates which are very rare in solo q

Sure if you get a coordinated group of friends then maybe she can work but that’s just a niche scenario

Her strength is primarily against deathball comps. She also typically plays better in one herself so everyone can protect each other better. Dive is her weakness and I do not see that as a problem.

Old sym was better against both deathball and dive. New sym is better in a deathball but worse against one. New sym is also better in a dive but worse against it.

It isn’t an issue that she’s weak against dive, but she shouldn’t be as weak to it is as she is now.

However, at least in more organized play where there are three stacks and above communication becomes easier and being in a stack yourself tends to create a higher tendency for your actions to create follow through from any solo’s on your team

Again this is a very niche scenario

Cannot disagree more. Deathball is the best comp to play her against.

Agreed she is at her best against deathball, but not as good against it as before.

Way out of the range of Rein and even able to stay out of the mei ult while doing it. Sym does not have to play front line. She can play in the mid range.

I had so many clips of sym 1.0 where I got 6 man kills

Does that prove old sym was viable

No

I think you MEI be confused about the functionality of Mei’s primary and alt fire. Her primary is not meant for confirming kills at close range but rather setting up for follow up by her secondary. Remove Mei’s secondary and suddenly you would find Mei impotent and unable to contribute in the damage numbers at all.

Her secondary doubles as both a ranged and close range weapon. Her primary only functions as a low health finisher or cc setup for her secondary.

Her secondary does NOT suck at close range any more then Hanzo’s arrows suck at close range.

Ehh I think meis primary is better at close range while her secondary is better at mid range while syms orbs are decent at mid range and meh at close range while her primary is crap at all times

In fact it is what sym uses to win duels if she finds herself in one.

Yes because it’s her only option. It being her best option doesn’t make it good. Yes she’s not duel hero but wen she is dove she doesn’t get to choose whether or not to fight. And she gets dove a lot because she’s so easy to kill. I go up against her as mercy with no fear. And it works very often

If played into a deathball comp it arguably becomes the best part of her kit. In less organized play sadly real deathball comps do not arise as much due to people having varying playstyles. However, in organized play where people are grouping up more consistently and a Rein/Orisa barrier is valued more sym gets increasing returns on her primary fire.

Nope nope nope, please show me this coordinated play where her gun becomes her best aspect because I haven’t reached that level of organized play yet and I’ve been 4100 so idk how much higher I gotta go.

12m’s is not hard to reach.

Would you tell a zen to stay within 12m of the enemy rein. I wouldn’t. So don’t tell sym too

[MrTickles-1464]

She’s regarded as utility dps because she doesn’t do enough dps to actually be considered a dps character. Also she was considered a utility support by many top tier sym mains before her rework and look how that turned out

So Mei must be even worse in that estimation because her kit is also primarily utility and does much less damage then that of Sym.

As for how she was regarded before… its pretty irrelevant as I feel that her utility before was MUCH worse and did not offer enough to a team to offset her pick. Disorganized or otherwise.

Now that is at the very least off set more by how much better her utility is and the increase in damage also helps too. She is on average doing 4k more damage then before re-work.

You mean if you get good corrdinated teammates which are very rare in solo q

They are not as rare as you might think.

Sure if you get a coordinated group of friends then maybe she can work but that’s just a niche scenario

LFG is a thing as well. If you create one with the intent of building your team around heavy use of sym’s utility it is not all that niche anymore.

Old sym was better against both deathball and dive. New sym is better in a deathball but worse against one.

Disagree. Old sym in order to do anything meaningful damage wise had to get within 7m if the enemy team.

• Her turrets were easily dislodged with ANY damage. Now there are many hero’s who have a hard time or straight up cannot reach them.
• Her secondary fire pierced barrier’s but only fired every 2 seconds. Essentially making its single target dps 60. Not to mention it was one of the easiest to dodge in the game. Deathball healing shrugs that kind of damage off as trash damage.
• Her primary was suicide range. She essentially had to use it inside of every possible hero’s range. Which made deathball an issue for her.
• Her shield generator was either underwhelming or to powerful. No inbetween on it. It was either not enough to make up for the loss in DPS or/and healing or way to powerful when combo’d with torb and brig’s armor.
• Her teleporter was only good against brain dead opponents who did not think to look for it. in cases of aware opponents the only way these things lived was if it was placed so far away from the objective you might as well have walked from spawn.
• Her projected barrier did nothing against opponents who did not backpedal and only saved sym from single ranged attacks.

She is far better at handling deathball now then she was back then.

Again this is a very niche scenario

Again there is LFG.

Agreed she is at her best against deathball, but not as good against it as before.

See above listing for reasons this is incorrect.

I had so many clips of sym 1.0 where I got 6 man kills

Does that prove old sym was viable

No

Missing the point of the vid entirely. It shows that she can easily reach opponents without being in their face. This video is proof of that.

Ehh I think meis primary is better at close range while her secondary is better at mid range

A thought that is entirely wrong. Please try to win any fight with mei using SOLELY her primary. The only way that would work is if her teammates were specifically targeting her frozen targets and finishing the job for her.

Out of the two weapon choices her secondary is her most powerful weapon. Remove her primary and she would do way better then if you inversed it and removed her secondary instead.

orbs are decent at mid range and meh at close range while her primary is crap at all times

Only if your not looking for and exploiting the opportunities her primary thrives off of. Which is any barrier and/or large target.

Yes because it’s her only option. It being her best option doesn’t make it good. Yes she’s not duel hero but wen she is dove she doesn’t get to choose whether or not to fight. And she gets dove a lot because she’s so easy to kill. I go up against her as mercy with no fear. And it works very often

You have yet to prove that having a weakness to a specific type of comp or playstyle is a bad thing. Why should she be good against dive? Why should she NOT be weak against it?

Nope nope nope, please show me this coordinated play where her gun becomes her best aspect because I haven’t reached that level of organized play yet and I’ve been 4100 so idk how much higher I gotta go.

Since you believe organized play and team stacks are niche I can only assume that you primarily solo queue. This is what has skewed your perspective. Take the time to build a team and you find that organized play exists. You have simply been missing it.

Would you tell a zen to stay within 12m of the enemy rein. I wouldn’t. So don’t tell sym too

McCree seems to do just fine in this place and he barely has any mobility whatsoever. Zen can also play close to his team in deathball. In fact he is forced to often times when being dived.

If McCree and Zen can take cover within their team so can Sym.

[DrFate-11148]

So Mei must be even worse in that estimation because her kit is also primarily utility and does much less damage then that of Sym.

Mei is also in a terrible spot god bless her soul

Now that is at the very least off set more by how much better her utility is and the increase in damage also helps too. She is on average doing 4k more damage then before re-work.

Sym had a higher pickrate before her rework as well

They are not as rare as you might think.

Are we playing the same game

LFG is a thing as well. If you create one with the intent of building your team around heavy use of sym’s utility it is not all that niche anymore.

I can’t speak for how much LFG is used but I never see any LFG groups in my games and I haven’t seen very many in my games when I play on my alt in plat either

Disagree. Old sym in order to do anything meaningful damage wise had to get within 7m if the enemy team.

Deathball almost always uses a rein, and rein forces his team to play in a slow manner and go into enemy fire with the protection of rein barrier, which works until you realize sym could pierce through his defences turning the cosmos best strength which was being able to walk through enemy fire into their biggest weakness as they were unable to dodge her orbs which fed sym her ult super fast

And syms entire kit revolves around her ult and deathball used to fuel symmetra to get her ult

Basically old sym turned deathball a core mechanics into fuel for her own play style

Missing the point of the vid entirely. It shows that she can easily reach opponents without being in their face. This video is proof of that.

I can show my many potg clips with old sym with her beam and say because it twisted and turned I didn’t have to be in peoples faces so she was fine.

It doesn’t work

Your clip was 2 kills.

I’ve got clips of 6 kills

Clips mean literally nothing

Please try to win any fight with mei using SOLELY her primary.

Yes by itself it ain’t good but it does set up the secondary fire very well

Symmetras primary fire doesn’t do this at all

Which is any barrier/ large target

She can’t safely get in range to shoot barriers and large heroes unless of course you are in a big team fight where many people are distracted, although I would argue it’s better to try and orb the 200 hp heroes and kill them then it is to waste time charging the beam up in this situation

You have yet to prove that having a weakness to a specific type of comp or playstyle is a bad thing. Why should she be good against dive? Why should she NOT be weak against it?

Where did I say I wanted her to be good against dive? Don’t put words in my mouth. Read this clearly

I am completely fine with her being bad against dive. But I think she shouldn’t be AS bad against five as she is now

She should be and against it but not to the extent is that she is now.

Since you believe organized play and team stacks are niche I can only assume that you primarily solo queue.

This is true although I would argue that this is also true for the majority of the player base.

McCree seems to do just fine in this place and he barely has any mobility whatsoever

Mcree doesn’t stay within 12m of the enemy, and of the enemy drags him into a brawl he is way better off then sym is

Zen can also play close to his team in deathball. In fact he is forced to often times when being dived.

Zen does not need to stay that close to the enemy rein and honestly he shouldn’t

It’s plain dumb to tell someone as vulnerable as zen or sym to stay that close to the enemy frontline where they are most succeptable to being caught out in a brawl

[MrTickles-1464]

Mei is also in a terrible spot god bless her soul

Doing pretty good in GM it seems though.

Sym had a higher pickrate before her rework as well

Yes, which is funny considering her rework all but coincided with the addition of private profiles. Something designed to allow one tricks and those who main picks which people view dis-favorably to protect themselves from pre-game targeting.

Even further more its great to see someone in 4000 rank range who is a self proclaimed sym main who also has a hidden profile.

You have to acknowledge the likely hood of more sym mains opting to stay on hidden profiles then most other players due to how badly they were targeted. In fact being in the higher percentile yourself (which means that you are in a much smaller player pool in general) the very fact that your profile is hidden will have an even great impact on the overall stats for Sym due to the absence of your info.

Are we playing the same game

Technically? Yes. Conceptually? No. I play exclusively in a trio stack with friends one of which is a Sym main. I play Mei. You on the other hand I assume play the more chaotic form of Overwatch which is solo queue. Where teamwork is all but non-existent.

I can’t speak for how much LFG is used but I never see any LFG groups in my games and I haven’t seen very many in my games when I play on my alt in plat either

playing solo heavily reduces your chance of encountering stacked groups. The matchmaker typically tries to find a bunch of solo’s for you play with.

Deathball almost always uses a rein, and rein forces his team to play in a slow manner and go into enemy fire with the protection of rein barrier, which works until you realize sym could pierce through his defences turning the cosmos best strength which was being able to walk through enemy fire into their biggest weakness as they were unable to dodge her orbs which fed sym her ult super fast

The only person playing in a “slow manner” is Rein himself. So the best result you would get would be 120 damage every 2 seconds. Something healed through entirely.

As for getting her ult super fast…her ult was terrible anyways so getting it fast was all but meaningless.

Basically old sym turned deathball a core mechanics into fuel for her own play style

If the playstyle in of itself was bad fueling it was not a negative for the enemy team.

I can show my many potg clips with old sym with her beam and say because it twisted and turned I didn’t have to be in peoples faces so she was fine.

It doesn’t work

Your clip was 2 kills.

I’ve got clips of 6 kills

Clips mean literally nothing

Clips mean plenty. You said that she had to get in close to use her beam. This clip proves you wrong. Don’t like it? Tough luck. It still proves you wrong. You can reach a pretty fair distance and keep yourself safe with it.

Yes by itself it ain’t good but it does set up the secondary fire very well

Symmetras primary fire doesn’t do this at all

Glad you acknowledged your previous comparison was wrong then.

Sym’s primary fire is not a setup tool for something else. It is a tool for specific situations. It shines against barriers and large targets and then once charged off said targets becomes incontrovertibly better then her secondary. it sets ITSELF up for success for the situations it was designed to be.

She can’t safely get in range to shoot barriers and large heroes unless of course you are in a big team fight where many people are distracted,

She is DESIGNED for teamfights in a deathball style. She does not need distractions to do it either. She just needs cover and distance. Both of which are not hard to get.

although I would argue it’s better to try and orb the 200 hp heroes and kill them then it is to waste time charging the beam up in this situation

If the situation has devolved to everyone spread out then yes. You want to use your secondary. But in the pre-fight where tanks are squaring off and the fight has not fully engaged is the PERFECT moment to charge your weapon.

Where did I say I wanted her to be good against dive? Don’t put words in my mouth. Read this clearly

I am completely fine with her being bad against dive. But I think she shouldn’t be AS bad against five as she is now

She should be and against it but not to the extent is that she is now.

Why do you believe this? What indicator’s do you have that she is doing worse then she should against dive or that she is even worse against dive then a Zen or a McCree who are equally as vulnerable to it as she is.

This is true although I would argue that this is also true for the majority of the player base.

Assumptions are not evidence.

Mcree doesn’t stay within 12m of the enemy, and of the enemy drags him into a brawl he is way better off then sym is

I love these absolutes that you talk in. Are you really going to claim that his playstyle is always preferable at range? That his playstyle does not change based on what his team comp and the enemy team comp are?

McCree is very capable of playing in a brawl as well. Provided he uses the cover of his team. His FTH and Flashbang are CQC tools. His weapon is the only tool that has the dexterity to be used at range. Which means he is not locked into any specific range or playstyle but can do different things based on the situation.

Once again, if McCree can survive in the Brawl why can’t sym?

Zen does not need to stay that close to the enemy rein and honestly he shouldn’t

It’s plain dumb to tell someone as vulnerable as zen or sym to stay that close to the enemy frontline where they are most succeptable to being caught out in a brawl

More absolutes. Zen is in the same boat as McCree. His weapon can be used at both CQC and long range and there are PLENTY of matches where it is far more beneficial to be in close with his team.

Such as benefiting from Brig’s protection or from the AOE heals and speed of a Lucio. Ever gone up against a fully armored Zen? He is amazingly durable.

Once again, If Zen can play in close when needed why can’t sym?

[DrFate-11148]

Doing pretty good in GM it seems though.

In what way is she doing well in gm?

You have to acknowledge the likely hood of more sym mains opting to stay on hidden profiles then most other players due to how badly they were targeted. In fact being in the higher percentile yourself (which means that you are in a much smaller player pool in general) the very fact that your profile is hidden will have an even great impact on the overall stats for Sym due to the absence of your info.

Wouldn’t this apply to her damage and elim stats you like to use as a way to says she doesn’t do as much trash damage as I say?

Technically? Yes. Conceptually? No. I play exclusively in a trio stack with friends one of which is a Sym main. I play Mei. You on the other hand I assume play the more chaotic form of Overwatch which is solo queue. Where teamwork is all but non-existent.

I are right in this, y issue is that the majority of overwatch is indeed solo q

playing solo heavily reduces your chance of encountering stacked groups. The matchmaker typically tries to find a bunch of solo’s for you play with.

I only play with a group in my plat smurf games and the q times are very very long

Also a quick glance at all the group titles and intended purposes shows that not many ppl are using it for comp. i use it for we sometimes but I almost never see in the titles a group made for comp

The only person playing in a “slow manner” is Rein himself. So the best result you would get would be 120 damage every 2 seconds. Something healed through entirely.

As for getting her ult super fast…her ult was terrible anyways so getting it fast was all but meaningless.

It’s called deathball because you would ball up behind rein in a sense

You could hit three people with one orb consistently

And also her ult was pretty much 70 percent of her value and playing against deathball handed her that value for free

If the playstyle in of itself was bad fueling it was not a negative for the enemy team.

It wasn’t super bad

It wasn’t good but her being able to have tp every fight or have SG up every fight regardless of if they killed it was pretty big

Clips mean plenty. You said that she had to get in close to use her beam. This clip proves you wrong. Don’t like it? Tough luck. It still proves you wrong. You can reach a pretty fair distance and keep yourself safe with it.

I never said that you can never ever find situations where you can hit people safely with the gun, sure it can happen, anything can happen, but it’s not something that you can bank on to a point where it’s actualy a safe option to do so. Again, I can look at all of my old clips and start saying old sym could attack ppl in a safe distance therefore everyone who complained was wrong

Clips don’t prove anything. Are you can find clips of it working but if you clipped every time it didn’t work the bad clips would far outweigh the good

Seriously, next up I’m going get a clip of me getting a 6k with torn while sitting down and start saying he’s viable cuz look guys I did good in this clip he’s fine

Glad you acknowledged your previous comparison was wrong then.

I should have worded it better

Sym’s primary fire is not a setup tool for something else. It is a tool for specific situations. It shines against barriers and large targets and then once charged off said targets becomes incontrovertibly better then her secondary.

There is a reason all top tier sym mains say her primary is useless, and that’s because it just is

If you wanna say their wrong go ahead, go out and out sym stevoo and prove that her beam is good. I’ll be here with the too 509 sym mains who are all in agreement that her primary is terrible

She is DESIGNED for teamfights in a deathball style. She does not need distractions to do it either. She just needs cover and distance. Both of which are not hard to get.

Sure you can waste some time and charge it up or you can use the orbs and target the small heroes and try to kill them. The seacond option is a lot safer, faster and better

But in the pre-fight where tanks are squaring off and the fight has not fully engaged is the PERFECT moment to charge your weapon.

Until you get caught in a brawl where you are basically frontlining or in the mid field of the brawl where you cannot survive and you get caught out

Sym has to work her way int the fight from far away to mid field. Not start out in the frontlines

Why do you believe this?

Because she has very little room to outskill the comp because it’s so good against her

that she is even worse against dive then a Zen or a McCree who are equally as vulnerable to it as she is.

Mcree is not as vulnerable towards it, and while zen is the difference is Zen is a healer and is supposed to need peel. Dps are not supposed to need AS MIUCH peel as the healers

And sym isn’t a healer.

McCree is very capable of playing in a brawl as well.

He’s better off then sym I agree

Once again, if McCree can survive in the Brawl why can’t sym?

He has a stun for one

And he also has a more reliable gun provided you have decent aim. If you don’t have decent aim then idk why u playing mcree anyways

More absolutes. Zen is in the same boat as McCree. His weapon can be used at both CQC and long range and there are PLENTY of matches where it is far more beneficial to be in close with his team.

Such as benefiting from Brig’s protection or from the AOE heals and speed of a Lucio. Ever gone up against a fully armored Zen? He is amazingly durable.

Once again, If Zen can play in close when needed why can’t sym?

Because zen can move in and out of that range as he sees fit while sym has to stay there to charge her weapon and then maintain her charge afterwards

Zen doesn’t have to do this

[MrTickles-1464]

In what way is she doing well in gm?

Pretty high winrate.

Wouldn’t this apply to her damage and elim stats you like to use as a way to says she doesn’t do as much trash damage as I say?

Not really. People with public profiles can create accurate averages of stats that measure performance. However, Pickrate is not about performance in the least. Pickrate is one of the only stats that could be DIRECTLY effected by a greater average of players choosing to stay on private profiles.

I are right in this, y issue is that the majority of overwatch is indeed solo q

Do you have data to back this up?

I only play with a group in my plat smurf games and the q times are very very long

Also a quick glance at all the group titles and intended purposes shows that not many ppl are using it for comp. i use it for we sometimes but I almost never see in the titles a group made for comp

I play in plat. My queues are typically 1-2 minutes. Do you play on NA servers or are you elsewhere if you don’t mind me asking.

As for looking at the titles of groups…why aren’t you creating your own? This is an option.

It’s called deathball because you would ball up behind rein in a sense

Yup, but you are not restricted to his walking speed when doing so. Which makes dodging her orbs easy unless for some reason you are hugging the butt of the Rein and not looking ahead.

You could hit three people with one orb consistently

Consistently? No. One in a while? Yes.

And also her ult was pretty much 70 percent of her value and playing against deathball handed her that value for free

70% of sym 2.0’s value was worse then 10% of most other hero’s value. She is far better now.

It wasn’t super bad

It wasn’t good but her being able to have tp every fight or have SG up every fight regardless of if they killed it was pretty big

Like I said before . SG was either underwhelming when used on its own and not worth any other ultimate it replaced but unbelievably unbalanced and broken when combined with Brig and/or torbs armor. Neither of which were healthy for Overwatch.

As for her teleporter, only the brain dead enemy would be unaware of a teleporter. Even worse. teleporter was essentially a worse rez. Both Mass rez and single rez far outperformed it. Why have a sym when you have a mercy?

I never said that you can never ever find situations where you can hit people safely with the gun, sure it can happen, anything can happen, but it’s not something that you can bank on to a point where it’s actualy a safe option to do so. Again, I can look at all of my old clips and start saying old sym could attack ppl in a safe distance therefore everyone who complained was wrong

Yes, You did. You said and I quote:

She can’t safely get in range to shoot barriers

Which she can. She can do it EASILY and OFTEN. Most people are just unwilling to look for those opportunities.

There is a reason all top tier sym mains say her primary is useless, and that’s because it just is

If you wanna say their wrong go ahead, go out and out sym stevoo and prove that her beam is good. I’ll be here with the too 509 sym mains who are all in agreement that her primary is terrible

Consensus does not equal fact. Perspectives are often created by group think. Especially if that group hated losing the old sym kit despite it being the worst kit of any hero.

Sure you can waste some time and charge it up or you can use the orbs and target the small heroes and try to kill them. The seacond option is a lot safer, faster and better

Subjective to the situation. Feel free to kill targets with your orbs behind that barrier… oh wait. You can’t. So why not target the barrier with your primary and upgrade it in four seconds flat while also not using ammo? I promise if you try this instead of throwing orbs you’ll have an easier time of killing things when that barrier drops.

Because suddenly you’ll have INSTANT damage that has the ability to sustain fire for a minimum of 10 seconds at a much higher damage output.

Until you get caught in a brawl where you are basically frontlining or in the mid field of the brawl where you cannot survive and you get caught out

Sym has to work her way int the fight from far away to mid field. Not start out in the frontlines

If you get “caught out” its because you were not paying attention. It is EASY to maintain your distance with a 12m ranged weapon. You can EASILY watch the enemies movement and anticipate pushs. ESPECIALLY if you are a GM level player. If I can do it at plat you can do it at gm.

Because she has very little room to outskill the comp because it’s so good against her

Was asking for proof. Not more “because its the truth”. I am just going to take this as you have none and take it as my point being made.

McCree and Zen have very little room to outskill dive comps as well. But some how they manage to work when folded into the middle of there team for a brawl comp. That indicates to me that you are unwilling to admit that sym has the same survival chance as them.

In fact she has a better Elims to death then either of them at GM level.

Mcree is not as vulnerable towards it

He is.

and while zen is the difference is Zen is a healer and is supposed to need peel.

Then how is he better at surviving in a brawl as sym in your estimation? Because Zen DOES enter the brawl quite often when he needs to fold into his team for protection.

Dps are not supposed to need AS MIUCH peel as the healers

Sounds like more of a rule you made up more then anything else. Peeling is not exclusive to healers.

He’s better off then sym I agree

They are near identical in mobility and the same health pool as well. How is he better?

He has a stun for one

And sym has a slow.

And he also has a more reliable gun provided you have decent aim

He fires two shots per second. At CQC relying on headshots would be foolish. So two bodyshots does 140 damage. Sym’s LARGE PROJECTILE secondary does 120. Not seeing that much of a difference here in CQC brawling abilities.

Because zen can move in and out of that range as he sees fit while sym has to stay there to charge her weapon and then maintain her charge afterwards

Zen doesn’t have to do this

Sym can move as well if danger occurs. Their mobility is similar. In fact hers is some what better due to her teleporter.

[DrFate-11148]

Pretty high winrate.

Sym 2.0 has a higher Wu rate, so do you think she was doing fine?

This is why I hate stats.

Not really. People with public profiles can create accurate averages of stats that measure performance. However, Pickrate is not about performance in the least. Pickrate is one of the only stats that could be DIRECTLY effected by a greater average of players choosing to stay on private profiles.

Except the number of players who have private profiles impacts the average damage and slums. It’s entirely possible that sym would have a lot more damage done if her players didn’t use private profiles.

Do you have data to back this up?

Besides que times nope

I play in plat. My queues are typically 1-2 minutes. Do you play on NA servers or are you elsewhere if you don’t mind me asking.

NA plat with minimum three other people

As for looking at the titles of groups…why aren’t you creating your own? This is an option.

That isn’t the point. The point is no one ever uses it for comp, I use it for qp exclusively and when browsing the LFG groups I never see groups for comp

Yup, but you are not restricted to his walking speed when doing so. Which makes dodging her orbs easy unless for some reason you are hugging the butt of the Rein and not looking ahead.

A lot of chokes forced this to happen for a little bit and it was more then enough time to get your ult

Consistently? No. One in a while? Yes.

Against a deathball it was pretty common

70% of sym 2.0’s value was worse then 10% of most other hero’s value. She is far better now.

I don’t think she is much better now

Why have a sym when you have a mercy?

Why not have both?

SG was either underwhelming when used on its own

SG helped her issue with vulnerability a lot.

As for her teleporter, only the brain dead enemy would be unaware of a teleporter.

Didn’t really matter if you got it every fight

Which she can. She can do it EASILY and OFTEN. Most people are just unwilling to look for those opportunities.

I need to word this better, you can get in that range however it isn’t an optimal thing to do most of the time.

Consensus does not equal fact.

Agreed, I just am more inclined to believe a top 500 sym main than u

Subjective to the situation. Feel free to kill targets with your orbs behind that barrier… oh wait. You can’t.

Tp? Also by the time you charge up your weapon the enemy won’t be hugging rein anymore. It’s kinda the mature of a brawl. Once I’m in everyone marks a man and fires

If I can do it at plat you can do it at gm.

This may be the issue

I only play her in gm and high masters, but in plat you don’t really get punished for bad positioning

It is very likely that you are getting away with this because the enemy won’t punish you because of the lack of gamesense

McCree and Zen have very little room to outskill dive comps as well. But some how they manage to work when folded into the middle of there team for a brawl comp. That indicates to me that you are unwilling to admit that sym has the same survival chance as them.

Uh no. They shouldn’t be in the middle of the team fight. Sure you can be stupid and play there but it doesn’t mean that it’s the correct lay or how you should be playing. You ain’t supposed to be a zen who is in the middle of the fight

Also again, mcree has a better gun that is hits an so it is more accurate and he has a stun which sym doesn’t have.

Mcree isn’t as bad against dive as he firstly has a stun so he is better off against flankers. He also can reliably hit them from range as the are diving and he also is better at peeling

In fact she has a better Elims to death then either of them at GM level

Consider the difference in how much each hero is picked

Can’t compare unless they are both picked equally

Then how is he better at surviving in a brawl as sym in your estimation

I didn’t say he was better off in a brawl. [quote=“MrTickles-1464, post:99, topic:210194”]
Because Zen DOES enter the brawl quite often when he needs to fold into his team for protection.
[/quote]

Not really. I think this is the crux of the issue. In plat I’m sure it’s reasonable to see a zen in the middle of the team fight, but from where I am zen does not reside in the middle of the brawl. He can enter the outskirts but he very rarely ends up in the middle of the fight.

Sounds like more of a rule you made up more then anything else. Peeling is not exclusive to healers.

There is a reason why I said they shouldn’t need AS MUCH peel. Like seriously please do not put words in my mouth. Yes dps need peel but there is not a dps in this game ( besides sym herself) that needs as much peel as zen

They are near identical in mobility and the same health pool as well. How is he better?

Firstly in a brawl he can be in high ground and still dish out reliable dps. Like hanamura seconds point attack mcree isn’t really on the point he is on the high ground shooting below. If he is forced to go into the brawl he has flashbang he can use. Symmetra cannot go up and reside on the high ground the way he does because she isn’t effective in that position

And sym has a slow.

If a genji dives you you can’t just throw out a turret and expect to work as a form of cc

The turrets aren’t used for fights in this way

He fires two shots per second. At CQC relying on headshots would be foolish. So two bodyshots does 140 damage. Sym’s LARGE PROJECTILE secondary does 120. Not seeing that much of a difference here in CQC brawling abilities.

Mcree has a hitscan gun while syms is a projectile, hitscan weapons are more reliable. There is a reason he is considered a reliable source of dps in the team come and sym isn’t

Sym can move as well if danger occurs. Their mobility is similar. In fact hers is some what better due to her teleporter.

Sym can move If danger occurs but then she loses the charge on her gun making the entire point of going their pointless.