Symmetra Survey Results!

General Discussion
61

It doesnt prove anything, because it only shows that Sym on her perfect meta was still a B tier pick at best - nowhere near ‘‘destroying Sym 2.0 in viability’’.

If Sym 2.0 had at any point been meta, that could have been a very different thing, couldnt it have?

I cant believe that I have to explain the idea of risk-reward to someone in 2020.

Well then rework her entirely and remove every trace of Sym in favor of making her a generic long range hero.

Because right now every aspect on Sym that isnt construct TP cheese points that she is at her core a close range dps. 12m primary fire, orbs unusuable in any serious manner outside close range due to their speed and TP to close gap.

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62

Nope. The original argument was that Symmetra 3.0, despite still not being a numerically balanced character, was able to surpass the stats of an actually balanced situational character like Symmetra 2.0.

If we consider the numbers you’ve provided as valid, then that point is all but proven. Add to this situation the fact that only a bug fix out of everything was the main change that propelled 3.0 to that position and the fact that, even during these months of Double Shield, Symmetra 3.0 still remains at the bottom of the barrel, I think you’ll understand my stance and how said META wasn’t the main event that led to that high point for 3.0.

63

You can’t rely on orbs and turrets to perform well thats honestly ridiculous. Also people without disabilities never drew out more value from old sym. What are they gonna do? Aim more to do more damage? Its silly; the players use the same amount of skill with the same result. Not every character needs mechanical value. Symmetra was a completely unique hero. Want something to bust out your mechanical skill? Play one of the 20+ mechanics focused characters. Disabled people had 1 non aiming dps. Now they have zero. How you don’t see that its a problem I have no idea.

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64

that’s literally not the problem here

it’s just not a risk/reward that a hero who offers basically nothing else should have

why is this everyone’s answer to everything involving symmetra or overwatch in general when they can’t come up with a real response

nobody is accepting her current state

using 3.0 as a scapegoat to justify 2.0 won’t change how she was literally considered either a troll pick or a nightmare with barely any middle ground

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65

I dont give a single poop about what people considered her to be. People consider Genji to be the apex of skill intensive heroes - that should tell you a lot about what they think.

They changed Sym to require massive amounts of aiming for no gain to herself. It did NOTHING to appease the aim elitists. She could have a beam pixels wide and still be called skilless no brain hero.

At this point I prefer a hero that feels good to play without trying to be a bootleg worse Tracer, which is what Sym 3.0 is.

Except she was at no point a pubstomper. She was a 1-2% pickrate specialist through the whole ladder, and lock-on at no point made her a bronze/silver staple pick.

Its almost as if lock-on has nothing to do with easy of play if it requires actual use of brains to judge a situation to determinate whatever or not you can get away with using it - something that mosr bronze/silver players dont have.

She didnt get results instantly, and she wasnt a low risk pick AT ALL. She didnt have burst, she didnt have panic buttons, she wasnt straightforward gameplay-wise, she wasnt a pick and play hero, etc.

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66

Tell that to console players

The only thing I want is for non disable people to not abuse the character

Wrong, they had 1 non aiming SUPPORT and they still do btw, it’s called Moira, plus Sym is in the DPS slot and as stated, they can do great things if they actually play to her strengths but I guess asking for the minimal input for playing a game is too much for you

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67

My hands are broken not my brain so I’d rather if you didn’t talk down to me like I’m a child who broke your favorite vase.

  1. I’m on console
  2. How did non disabled people abuse the character?
  3. She was in the support category yes but was frequently used as a dps on a triple support team. Moira does not do this (unless you’re a bad moira)
  4. You can’t reach maximum potential as symmetra without using her beam. If you cant use beam you’re at a significant disadvantage. If you don’t want to use beam, playing junk rat or widow would get the job done more efficiently.

Maybe asking for minimal consideration is too much for people like you. Its called don’t market towards and profit heavily off of disabled people then leave them in the dust when you decide you’d rather be an r6 rippoff instead of overwatch

3 Likes
68

if you have an equal delta of damage among heroes, the one who requires the least effort is the best option hands down, every dps must require aim or the role itself goes to hell

Which was the problem that made them move Sym to DPS, she wasn’t playing as a support therefore her power level shouldn’t be that of a support, instead they moved her to DPS and gave her the same gating mechanics that other DPS are required to have

This is simply not true, unless dove of course but in those cases is when you should have a defensive TP which is infinite now but of course, just like everyone else you like the pew pew, it just so happen that you want the game to cater to you instead of the the whole majority of players

Look, I understand that disable people require certain benefits in order for their lives to be as comfortable as possible but when it comes to gaming, the sad reality is that sym is the limit of what can be done on a fps, you have a TON of value in her kit outside of the beam, as a matter of fact the beam itself grows in size and the aim requirement is barely there

Overwatch was never marketed for disabled people, it was said that disabled people would probably feel more comfortable playing it than say CSGO but again, the balance of the game cannot take a dive just because of that, devs and the community alike have evolve to understand the game at a very optimized level and despite of that devs gave you a hero who works perfectly at every range yet all you want is for the autoaim so that you can feel like you’re having some impact

I’m done with this discussion now, all I can suggest to you is to learn where sym can be strong without using her beam and if you refuse to do so, then I guess I’ll find you on some other game out there, good luck

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69

Where sym is strong without using her beam other characters are stronger. Like I said if you want that play style widow (and many other aim intensive characters) do it better. She wasn’t balanced around being a good dps, if she was she wouldn’t have a 1% pick rate. You’re missing the point which isn’t boo hoo I suck at aiming pls give me auto aim. The point is it PHYSICALLY hurts people to play aim intensive characters. I don’t intend on going to the hospital after every overwatch session. Sym is worse then all other characters at every range btw. I have learned where sym can work which is why I know she’s bad in most situations, especially if you’re disabled. I’m not a sym main who sucks at sym. I’m a genji/mercy main who wants to be able to play her again. I don’t want auto aim so I feel I have impact. I want auto aim so I, and others like me, can play our favorite character without crying. I’m going to assume you know nothing about marketing and excuse your ignorance on that part. Statistically sym is bad. Thats just how it is. She was bad before and after the rework. At least before the rework went weren’t stuck on mercy every game, and could actually have fun

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70

okay, congratulations, but that doesn’t negate the actual statistics

having abysmal pickrate for that long doesn’t happen over night, and it didn’t suddenly come from no where

again, using 3.0 as a scapegoat doesn’t justify anything, i can’t believe how many times i have to agree that i don’t like 3.0’s direction, and that symmetra could have kept a lock-on beam if they took her balancing overall in a different route

that just further solidifies the fact that 2.0 still had to change

i lol’d

i also just wish symmetra was kept a support, made into a real support hero, and i wouldn’t care if she kept a lock on

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71

Also if this was true she would’ve had a pick rate of at least 5% and thats being generous but she didn’t. Least effort isn’t always the best option (see ana) and effort≠aim

72

Couldn’t agree more with your stance in general.

The problem with Symmetra 2.0 was never that she was a hero with almost no aim requirements and as a had result greatly reduced overall aim requirements as well.

The problem was that, in the context of the game, Symmetra 2.0 was still lable to output huge amounts of value as proven by her stats, which in a Competitive game by - design is simply not acceptable.

One of the main offenders of this exact thing was 2.0’s absolutely ridiculous lock - on damage. Additionally, yeah… The devs could had fixed problems such as these by simply nerfing the damage and performing value mitigations by buffing other parts of her kit as compensation, but that still wouldn’t fix the many fundamental design problems of the 2.0 kit that rightfully led to her rework so many years ago.

I personally more than respect disabled players and feel they’re extremely brave people who have to face problems every single day of their lives. My most popular original topic is based on this exact subject.

But, that doesn’t mean that the majority of the player base (who I’m 1000% sure didn’t like Symmetra 2.0 to say the least) should suffer just for a tiny fraction of the player base to have their way.

You can’t have both your cake and eat it, sadly. Symmetra 2.0 would either had to receive major value mitigations and still not be at a great spot, or receive a total rework as she rightfully did.

A complete or partial revert is of course almost impossible at this point based on the devs’ history and unfortunately, it’s truly sad that the tons of useful feedback that has been spread by former Symmetra 2.0 mains especially has Ben drowned in a sea of mindless nostalgia and Bure baseless generalizations such as the belief that 2.0 was somehow reworked ““just to appease Genji mains””, that 3.0 is somehow ““badly - designed”” just because she’s numerically underpowered, etc.

As a community we should really devote our time and energy into actually doable things such as finally fixing the few design problems that remain in 3.0’s kit and finally taking her out of her underpowered misery that has wrongly condemned the entire new kit in the eyes of many.

Also re - implementing old versions of now reworked heroes such as Symmetra 2.0 into Custom Games, Workshop modes and even a special Arcade game mode can help a lot in giving everyone what they want and as for disabled players, what they need, without at the same time damaging both the hero and the entire game as a result.

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73

for n number of turrets:
old sym turret setup time ~ 2 x distance/5.5 + n x 1.4 seconds i.e. walk distance long, then serially place each one with 1.4s casting time with animation lock + slow then walk back. this doesn’t include the deployment time of each turret yet which is ~1s each (hasn’t changed throughout the reworks).

sym current turret setup time ~ distance/15 + 0.5 x n seconds i.e. throw n out with 0.5s lags between each which fly in together to their destination at 15m/s without long animation lock nor slow.

the current way is mathematically faster and takes less time to do. simple math. throw in the issues regarding animation and slow costs, it’s very clear that old sym was the one that needed to setup beforehand more.

that’s why they’re thrown now… like with old sym turret you typically would go for a 4-2 or 3-3 setup to cover 2 routes/areas, i.e. not always all routes. if they went an uncovered route and you’re on old sym, you have no way to put turrets there reactively because it’d mean suicide getting that close a lot of the time or you wouldn’t make it in time.

I mean I never said 3.0 was balanced properly. quite the opposite in fact.

the cd on them legit has not changed. it’s been 10s per turret from launch…

<1s cover in effective range or only good cover against torb turret or bastion != solution to her inability to get in and out of effective range AND solution to her inability to stay in effective range long enough.

2 Likes
74

I love all your fancy math that factors in walking time as if that’s what you’d be using to factor in when using her turrets for a duel, also ignoring that they added an entirely new animation sequence adding time to her turrets that the originals didn’t have. Factor in the ‘float time’ rather than the fact that you could just pop them on the ground and the wall and I’d be honestly surprised if the new sym was genuinely faster than old sym.

But I can’t seem to get anyone to see it that way, despite it being so painfully obvious. There are a surprising number of 2.0 syms that apparently never used her turrets mid fight, which is probably why they didn’t have an 86% winrate with her like I did. But you can lead a horse to water, can’t make it drink.

  • Also, saying that they were ‘always 10 seconds’ while ignoring the quantity just shows that you’re trying to make the ‘math’ work in your favor but ignoring what the actual THING is. If you only have three turrets rather than 6 turrets and the cooldown is the same, you are still at a net loss, because before, you had 6 turrets, and they always cost 10 seconds a pop. Meaning you could expend more turrets, faster, more frequently. It’s just a net loss, idk how anyone could see it otherwise because they cost the same and she has less now.

With old Sym you could pop a turret on a wall you were somewhat near, now even from the same distance you used to be, you have to factor in the ‘float’ time and the added unfurl animation of the turret that did not used to exist. That is added time on two fronts.

Seriously guys, it’s not rocket science, it’s basic observation. You don’t need to try and pull out all this fancy nonsense math with no numbers to make yourself sound smart, just think about it. Added animation + Float time = longer time total.

75

deployment time, i.e. time to activate after creation remained the same, casting time was different. old one was literally a 1.4s res to place 1 turret. new one is 0.5s cast for 1 turret without slows on movement… in the time you can put down 1 of the old turrets, you could’ve thrown 2 of the newer turrets.

like even if you’re going to argue time for new ones to travel for a duel, you wouldn’t be throwing them far regardless for a duel (unless like tp was not available maybe). like for a new turret to take as long as an old turret to be placed, it needs to be thrown (1.4-0.5) x 15m/s = 13.5m away. like old turrets can’t even achieve that distance iirc and the only time you would be throwing it that far or further is when you’re duelling someone further away which old turrets can’t even help you in that situation unlike new ones. if you’re duelling someone closer, why the hell are you throwing turrets that far away?

if you’re placing a turret down right in front of an enemy in a duel with old sym, you’re slowed down like a res and locked in for 1.4s for them to kill you anyways unlike newer turrets. like in what aspect is the newer turrets slower?

also apparently basic understanding of the relationship between speed, distance and time and being able to use an equation for a straight line is “fancy math”… :man_shrugging:

yet you also needed more turrets for 1 location except if you were purely going to alarm use cases which wasn’t even that often on old sym due to the requirement of needing to walk all the way to where she wanted to check to set one there (you know…your complaint about needing to setup beforehand…).

does she cover less areas at once? sure if you were trying to go for the absolute min of alarm use case. but you can’t argue that current turrets are slower or less flexible or needing more setup because they are objectively faster to setup and able to setup in more places from more places.

2 Likes
76

Dont bother, Zephrin will mock the so called ‘‘pink glassed 2.0 mains’’ while massively pinkglassing Sym 3.0.

Truth is he doesnt even care about Sym as a hero, he just wants his hipster bootleg Tracer to be a thing. He outright says that ‘‘primary beam is not salvageable’’ because trying to change Sym to make her work at the close range she has to be without making a low counterplay spammy utility flanker cancer means modifing the basic design of 3.0 and thats a big no-no.

He will go into every topic where 2.0 is mentioned to say that Sym right now is just as bad as Sym 2.0 despite that being idiotic nonsense. At this point I just flat out ignore him because he is obnoxious.

2 Likes
77

Yeah I decided to stop replying when the fact that I was being sarcastic about their attempt at using math to justify their logic flew over their head. I don’t think Blizzard is going to get their act together and fix Symmetra, but that doesn’t mean she’s good as-is either y’know. It is what it is despite what anyone says on the forums, and I know for a fact my win rate with 2.0 was 86% and I could win a majority of my duels using my kit whereas now I cannot do that in the same way with new Sym. Just is.

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78

They’ve reworked her twice, so I have faith that they’ll at least give her a few buffs. I know that Jeff has mentioned a couple times that Symmetra is his go-to DPS so he’s going to be aware of her problems.

79

Thats because Sym 3.0 wasnt designed to be a functional dps with match-ups, both good and bad, like every other dps hero. She is basically team TP, a OWL bait gimmick to ‘‘see her in pro play’’, with a bunch of meaningless filler glued around it.

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80

The mere fact that her primary fire was made aim reliant but also short range while they removed her only ability to protect herself but didn’t touch her health at all says all anyone needs to say about the dev team.

They can’t figure that one out and it’s kind of a no brainer.

1 Like