Symmetra has been a tremendous failure

And? Her turrets do 50 damage a piece. Assuming all three are on one target she can do 210 minimum with her primary uncharged against a target. Because you know, She is designed to function in such a way that she takes advantage of the CC and distraction her turrets create. You cannot quantify her damage solely based on what her primary or her secondary does.

Because as I said previously, her damage is spread through out her kit and not concentrated in a single weapon like soldier’s is.

Which considering where the rest of her damage is coming from I find is perfectly acceptable. Especially since she can almost hold a player in place while doing so a large portion of the time…

If you had taken the time to read a previous reply I did propose some changes. I am very fearful of an over zealous player base pushing for to large of a buff. Which I believe is what most people are asking for. Asking for a base increase or a reduced requirement on a character who already provides the most utlility of any DPS role hero is a recipe for disaster. I love Sym and I do not want to watch her get gutted when we are so close to a perfect sym.

I am all for buff’s. I just think the ones proposed are to far to fast.

How is Brig closing the gap? Why is sym so close that Brig can close it that quickly? Sounds like more a stupid Sym them a stupid brig.

If it started at 90 then the use of her secondary would become solely long range spam again. Her primary needs a steep enough downside so that it is not ideal in so many situations that her secondary is forgotten. Being able to surpase the damage of her orb in just a second is to fast.

Because unlike all the other DPS character’s in the roster she has high utility. Having this high utility calls for her to have higher vulnerability some where. Being dove should be her weakness.

As long she still manually has to use it I am okay with a reduced teleporter cast. I believe I said as much before.

This would be awful for me and opting out of it would still not solve the placement issues it has.

I would much rather they work on how it determines where I want it placed. As of now if I want to place it on the ledge I have to be near pixel accurate to do so. It should not be like this. It should be able to split the difference in distance between alternate locations to make placement easier.

If I am just a couple meters off from looking at a ledge it should know that is where I intend it to go instead of the ground 15 meters below it.

It is when you are engaged in CQC. Something Sym does not need to do anymore. Taking cover is not all that difficult. Especially if you are playing with an anchor tank like Orisa or Rein.

I play in a trio stack. All three of us are not healer’s. It is a Roadhog (self sustain) Mei (Self Sustain) and our Sym. So no healer is pocketing our Sym really. She actually more often protects us then we do her. Her turrets deal with harder to hit targets for our Roadhog and make it easier for him to land hooks. Same as my slow for both Sym and Road. My wall allows me to block targets in after a Road hook and the turrets then hold them while we finish them off.

Its amazing synergy. We call it “The Symply Ameizing Road to Victory” build.

Anyways, our sym lives more because she plays with us and the team in general. Even in quickplay when we are not using our trio comp but more messing around he still plays her and absolutely destroys. He still manages to outlive most of us the majority of the time because his disciplined positioning.

I honestly do believe that as long as you play sym properly and place yourself in a proper position that she has much to offer and has a ton of survival when she takes advantage of the cover her team offers her.

So, lets take a look at the scenario:

Brigitte is 12m away from Symmetra, Sym in this example is perfectly in range to do damage at the maximum distance…

Brig uses her shield bash to close the distance, Shield bash launches her forward 6m, during this time, Symmetra is utilizing her primary to do damage, and Brig is still out of range with her flail by 1m, since it has a 5 meter reach.

Walking backwards, Symmetra moves 1m/s slower than Brig, who is walking forward.

Brig is now in range and is healing herself based off hitting you, in the time it takes for you to finally ramp up to level 3, she’s mitigating that damage by the amount she’s healing. 3 swats with her mace, and a rocket flail will kill you, and she will still be standing.

Now, lets say you are trying to reactively place turrets: During her swinging while walking forward, she will destroy your turrets in flight before they can land and set up. Her ‘cone of influence’ will kill any turret you attempt to throw once she’s shield bashed to close distance.

Now, if you can manage to throw turrets down and get them set up BEFORE she runs at you, you’ll probably win.

The easiest way I’ve found to deal with a solo Brig running after me is to literally run away while tossing turrets on nearby walls, and then right click charge, Jump in the air, spin around, loose it before touching, turn back around and run forward again.

I’ve had limited success with this route, but it is possible.

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I 100% agree
So in my opinion, symmetra was much more powerful before her rework; however now she is perceived to be stronger although she is now. All of her stats have gone down, win rate, pick rate, Almost everything.

Although she seems to be worse now she is perceived to be better? This is the power of tilt. Even though she was stronger before now people don’t complain as much and they think that she’s better now and more viable. Although she is now as teleporter is only good in low rank team play as in higher ranks she is still easily counterable and it’s easy to figure out what to do when she teles somewhere.

Her old abilities were better, photon barrier could regularly block ults, the thing is that photon barrier was unpredictable and really could be used in any circumstance. Now it sits in one place and anyone with half a brain understands how to get around it.
video of photon barrier blocking ults and saving people
H ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBbe7ylCy18

Her old ult’s were better too. Like NO ONE understands how good 225 hp tracer was and it also really really helps supports, it was regenable too (unlike brig and torb armor)
Tele was also really really good. It really helped slow characters and was basically a worse version of res that was easily counterable and punishable, But if you could get it off it was really really strong.
Video of tele being really good
H ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWwBFCTjsU

To be honest old turrets were a lot weaker but they felt more fun in my opinion. New turrets feel really frustrating because they often get stuck and random objects for no reason and it takes them such a long time to set up that half the time they are set up someone’s already killing them. New turrets also move with you, so if you want to throw a turret in a specific location and then move at the right time the turrets will also move, this could be fixed with turrets coming out on the first frame but I guess thats not going to happen.
Video of old turrets being good
H ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hkkk7zoeSo

Alright, now for her alternate fire (AKA sym 3.0 primary fire). Alternate fire is really, well ok. It’s really not that great and it’s really spammy, at first I thought you could aim it but it’s actually hard to do that because of how often you have to shoot them and the crazy mobility of most heros. Old alternate fire was actually really good because it would go through rein shield to help her get ult and it was kinda the only thing that you could use to get someone with a shield up.
Video of orb snipes
Well actually I couldn’t find the video I was looking for but I think you guys know what im talking about.

ALRIGHT, The biggest bad. Primary fire. Sym 2.0’s primary fire was actually really good, it was very strong and melted most anyone, it also made her a very very good flanker. 3.0s primary fire is useful in almost no situation other than shooting at shields and even then its only at close range.
Sym beam being good
H ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cl4ITLqd1g

Conclusion.

Sym 2.0 was a very strong flanker hero that would get flamed for practically no reason.
Sym 3.0 is a hero that can be used in any situation to varying results from bad to decent.

Reasons to revert.
Sym 2.0 was a very good brig counter (something that lower rank players can struggle with) And because she was easy to use it would be easy for people to deal with brig. Her beam also helped a lot of people with disabilities that are now being forced into playing healers or tanks. (if they want to actually play well)
Sym 2.0 was also a lot more fun (evident by pickrates)

Reasons to keep sym 3.0
She’s not ‘cancerous’. It’s one less thing for the bronze players that don’t want to pick winston to deal with. She’s spammy and kinda okay at killing tanks on occasion.

Revert changes
If they were to revert I would like some changes.

Make turrets have a eight second cool down
Increase primary fire range to ten M
Decrease primary fire dmg to 100
Give shield gen a radius that players can see like lucio
Tell people where tele and shield gen are
Give sym fifty extra shield and fifty less health
Decrease alternate fire charge time by .5 seconds.

Buffs (if not revert)
Decrease turret charge time
Make tele less clunky and have set up time only be .3 second (it takes too long to set up)
Give symmetra a moira beam and decrease damage to 140.
Give symmetra a lock on animation (it would be like moira where is does not stretch or anything)
Decrease ult charge amount by 25%
Increase beam range to fifteen M
Give sym extra 25-75 shield depending on beam charge

I Really REALLY love symmetra and in her current state well…. Do I even have to say it?

Thanks for reading ^^

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So we are assuming at this point that Sym’s turrets are not already placed? I mean I can see them being removed and this scenario taking place but typically a proactive sym will have started placing new turrets as the old ones are destroyed.

Because typically in my experience Brig is likely slowed and distracted by already placed turrets. Creating ample time to charge her primary.

BUt of course in the scenario you provide her alternate fire is better for it.
I think I already established with you in another thread that her Primary is best suited for team fights.

The one on one you are talking about is Sym’s worst element. She is not a heavy duelist (nor should she be).

I believe the matchup favor’s sym in a team fight and favors Brig in a one on one.

Outside of 12m, using alternate fire, amirite?

Which is outside of 12m…

I’m not saying that you don’t experience what you experience. The mainstay of my experience is solo queue QP, so I don’t have a tight nit team to rely upon to synergize with. It’s not for a lack of trying.

I’m glad you’ve had such amazing synergy with Mei and Road, and I can definitely see where it would make for a powerhouse team. I have to ask though, wouldn’t you be just as good as if you’d had a Soldier, or a Hanzo in place of Sym?

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I believe that Sym IS still salvagable. Her potential damage output should remain the same.
I suggest a SERIOUS decrease in the cooldown of her turrets (I think reduce it to 12 seconds total for all the turrets), and an increase in tick rate for her left click. Plus, I just want her left click to be bigger in size, somewhere between right now and Moira’s right click.
Somebody also suggested infinite time for the Teleporter.
Do that, and Sym is saved.

But at this moment it’s a pipedream.

Depending the situation. There is no definitive. Just one based on the comps involved.

Anchor tank on your side? Then being with them is the best choice. Which is often within 12m.

No anchor tank or no other cover provided by your team? Then most of the time yes. You will be outside of 12m.

I will say to you what I have said repeatedly to DrFate. Absolutes do not make good arguments. Especially when it comes to the amount of variables of a Overwatch match.

Outside of 12m is not her best position all the time. In fact it is much closer to half. Especially with how much Rein is used.

No, We would not be just as good. We would be worse. The reason sym is so important to our setup is due to the fact that she slows targets, provides an on demand protective barrier that works in concert with Mei’s wall (I am the Mei btw) to provide mitigation due to a lack of other protection, and also provides a means of closing range to make up for the lack of ranged capabilities.

Without her teleporter, barrier, and high CC our comp would be terrible. Soldier and Hanzo’s pure damage would not be able to make up for the lack of presence that Mei and Roadhog suffer from when range is an issue. As most of their kit is CQC based.

Calling her ultimate “on-demand” is quite a stretch. Her ultimate has a steep cost at 1500 ult requirement. That is the same as other ultimates like Dragonblade, Meteor Strike, High Noon, Dragonstrike… She doesn’t always have her barrier available. That is one area that could potentially be improved in her kit. An ult cost reduction would allow her to more easily prepare a barrier for each team fight.

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My biggest gripe is that they wanted to make her less reliant on the team, yet her teleporter is one of the most team-reliant abilities in the game and requires more cooperation than anything in her previous kit. In unorganized play, its impact is tremendously neutered since the Symmetra herself is the only one using it 99.9999% of the time, yet it can’t be buffed without threatening organized play because of its huge potential impact there. They basically shifted her old beam to this ability in terms of difficulty to balance, which was a major reason they changed the old beam.

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Symmetra definitely does need buffs to her survivability and reducing the ramp up time on her beam.

The M1 beam is the biggest obvious issue. It takes 4 seconds to ramp up to 180 damage, theoretically. It takes about 6 seconds, realistically.

We can take a look at Zarya Masters, who average at about 60% accuracy for example. If the average Symmetra player’s beam accuracy is somewhere between 40-60%, that’s about a half reduction in beam damage and a doubling in beam charge time.

Though of course this can be different vs targets. On big tanks, like Roadhog, they’re prolly hitting 70%. On a tiny Genji flipping about, maybe 30%. So it’s just stronger on tanks, generally speaking, but they do also have armor. Given it’s tic rate, it does half damage to armor. So that’s also a bust.

But with all these problems, even a very small buff would be a step forward. Try experimenting with reducing the charge time from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds per step.

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I was speaking about in concert with Mei’s wall. Mei’s wall working for some threats where as Sym’s barrier working for other’s that Mei’s cannot.

Our Sym actually tends to use it selfishly just as much as for our group. Depending on the situation. He is also really good at anticipating an enemy move that would need the barrier.

Example: He is one of the best anti barrage counters I have ever seen with Sym’s barrier’s. Why? Typically its terrible at it due to its cast time. However, he often watch’s and deploys it just as he thinks Pharah will barrage. Can’t count how many times I have heard “Justice reARRG!”.

I also think due to how well we synergize our sym gets in more damage due to it and gets ult faster as a result.

Fun Fact: Teleporter blocks Shield Bash.

Also, you could use the Teleporter to teleport behind Brigette then TP back and force her to keep turning.

That’s way to low if we don’t want to nerf the turrets.

And after she got her ult, it was a great source for ult charge for the enemy healers.

It only helped a good team do abit better. You can do similar things with the current Teleporter.

So a video of people walking into them, which doesn’t happen often and can be done with her new orbs.

She was not.

This is the kind of phrase that made me wish Sym3 was overly OP like every other rework. Because that sentence was true with Sym1, not Sym2. You are living proof that people still carry stances from release, even after the changes made her really good in other scenarios.

The reason why Sym at launch was only used for first point defense was not because she couldn’t protect the second point, or later stages of hybrid/escort maps. It was because TP was her only ultimate, and with your spawn being so close to the point, its benefit was minimal, thus you were playing with a hero that didn’t had an ultimate to swing the fight in your favor.

Shield Generator changed that. Hard. SG forced the enemy team to fight a tank’s worthy of extra HP (450), or deviate their attention seeking and destroying the SG before tackling the point. That’s a perfect catch 22 situation, because neither option is optimal.

Then, there is attack. Where, Sym1 had a lot of trouble because even if the team could escort her to the point, she could only carry 3 turrets in the pocket (not enough to lock the point down), and she literally had a beam range smaller than melee weapons (Reinardt, Winston, literal quick melee). Plus, on first point attack have the spawn advantage, and would barely benefit from an offensive TP, and by second point, the enemy spawn being so close means you had even less time to setup your defenses to prevent contesting.

Shield Gen, Photon Barrier and the turret buff of Sym2 changed that.

Shield Gen was possible to be placed outside the enemies’ fortress, forcing them to fight a much beefier team, or send someone out of safe grounds to break it, and risk them being picked in advance, or the other team pushing at the same time, fighting 6v5 in exchange for losing a fast charging ult.

Shield tanks are slow, which means if you want to approach relying on a Reinhardt or Orisa shield to protect the team until you are touching the point, it’s not uncommon that they have little shield left to protect the team once you are on the point itself. Photon Barrier allowed the team to move at walking speed while being protected from the front and you reach the point with a full main tank shield to fight on. That barrier was a lot more resilient that people gave credit, and I can count in my finger how many times I’ve seen it break because of damage instead of just hitting a wall.

Getting 6 turrets in the stash also was a godsend because once you escorted Sym into the point, she could immediately set up some defenses, and guarantee that no one coming back from the spawn would contest for too long. That was also a heavily unappreciated aspect of attack Sym2 because it’s seem as “winning more”, when it was perfectly possible that you could make a quasi-team kill, then someone stagger enough for reinforcements to arrive, and you ends up only taking one third of the point. Sym on attack ensured that almost always, when you get into the point and win the team fight, you will take the point because the enemy simply can’t contest anymore.

The place where Sym2 didn’t had footing was pro play, and that’s it. Mostly because her weak point was focused fire and coordination. Two things that basically define pro play. A pro team would not send a lone Tracer to seek a shield gen. They will simply overwhelm them with the extra health and not care about it (see that they do exactly that against Brigitte’s Rally). They would not linger around in spawn thinking about how to approach the defenses, thus, not letting Sym reset her turrets between fights. And definitely, they would not panic when she latches them with the beam, with full knowledge that they can simply click on her head and kill her faster than she could attain beam level 3.

Sym2 was perfectly fine for ladder play (maybe even a bit OP) in all ranks. She was lacking into pro play. But because Sym1 was so underwhelming after all the nerfs she received because of her dominance in beta, people kinda solidified that she is trash, and unless she becomes so OP it becomes mandatory, people will not give two thoughts about her. They wil try her out, not attain mastery of her kit after 5 matches, and never try her again.

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This! That entire post by Nibelung was spot on as usual. Sym 2 had a far higher win rate than Sym 3 in general while also having a higher pick rate at times.

This huge Sym 2.0 win rate came despite practically every game having people doubting her being toxic or morale destroying over chat just for playing her, or even outright deliberately trying to throw just for daring to pick her.

But everyone considered her trash because Live 1.0 pretty much was, and thus refused to give her the benefit of a fair try. If a game was lost and Sym was on the team it was that person’s fault no matter how well they were doing or how poorly someone else was doing. If was a won and Sym was on the team most people felt that they simply carried the Sym. It is amazing how Sym 2.0 was being carried to victory in 2 out of 3 or even 3 out of 4 matches…

The human social conscious cares nothing about truth. All it cares about is the perception of truth. And perception has it that Sym was trash.

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“Hard to use”? The only useful part about Sym is placing a tp behind the enemy Ana/Zen and spamming your turrets into it. Otherwise you just spam your orbs. Spamming those orbs correctly was the easiest part of Sym 2.0. Now it’s the hardest part of Sym 3.0.

If you think Sym 3.0 is hard, you do something wrong (Actually using your primary fire, trying to put a tp to port you and your teammates, trying to save your ultimate for a good opportunity)

Otherwise: Yes, the rework is a failure. I wish the Devs would revert her until they have a good rework.

Symmetra is a situational hero at most. Her only benefit is the throwable auto aim turrets. Everything else about her is pretty much a joke.

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