Support players, Git Gud!

General Discussion
61

There will be multiple betas, so they have all the occasion and the reasons to fix it.

This is their last chance for Overwatch series.

This is the comment of the Lead Hero designer in 31 july 2020 in the reddit ama.

"Actually we’ve been talking about Tanks, as role, a lot recently. In the past we’ve had trouble trying to figure out how to make tank heroes like Roadhog compete with big protective tanks like Reinhardt. Lately we’ve been thinking, what if we just go the other direction? What if Reinhardt was more like Roadhog? What would that feel like for the entire game? Basically, what if all ‘main tanks’ became ‘off tanks’?

This would mean Tanks would be less about pure protection, and more about brawly offense. Barriers would be less prevalent, damage overall would be higher (tanks doing more dmg, and reducing less dmg), which is kind of scary potentially. We’ve already been experimenting on this front and so far its been pretty fun, though the game does feel significantly different. Players have to play the map angles a lot more aggressively as you can’t just rely oin your Tank/barrier for cover.

I’m not sure where these experiments will go but they’re pretty interesting so far."

Basically in the half of 2020 brawler tanks was still an experiment.

We haved covid until some months ago and theory they even developed a pve part.

I’m not really surprised to see supports in this state.

For real i’m more surprised they have done a rework for dps too.

62

Very true, but you said support must neither be able to survive nor be able to dps, which means they must accept being slaughtered and respawn frequently, right?

5 Likes
63

I do agree dps should have a very decided advantage with regards to damage, the issue is supports as compensation should either have escape tools or increased self sustain to even out the fight. I think the primary issue now is that quite a few don’t have enough compared to the raw dps power, especially since hitscan in particular are strong and even if they don’t kill you they can zone you away from the fight and effectively remove you from contributing.

64

to be able to deal high damage and kill. supports being capable of 1v1’ing a dps (i.e. a fair 50-50 fighting chance) doesn’t mean they’re not capable of dealing high damage or get kills.

also, do you not see the hypocrisy in supporting the “supports should just git gud” argument AND wanting duels with supports to be inherently in favor of yourself who’s on dps i.e. on a the easy side of the interaction?

a better question would be:
given how OW2 is supposed to be about EVERYONE having more individual impact and more individual playmaking, how do you want supports to have more individual impact and more individual playmaking if

  1. they can’t 1v1 dps; nor
  2. keep someone alive well (considering you don’t want supports to make “nothing die”)?
7 Likes
65

It’s the same old balance issues from Ow 1 from the same dev team that’s inconsistent at balancing.

They want to make a competitive E-sport then the game has to push far more drastic strategic as well as fun changes.

It’s a step in the right direction to give player more dueling power instead of team reliance.

But they are making the same mistake in their design direction by punishing a role/class in the game.

The Support problem is the exact same parallel problem of Ow 1 tanks.

Tanking in that game is an over stressful job that puts you at the mercy of the enemy because your tools are weaker and dependent on players.

Ow 2 currently the Supports don’t have enough compared to the other roles.

The hopium is that the devs don’t take months to years to address this issue as has been their M.O. on OW 1.

3 Likes
66

Well, survivability depends on the hero… Some are designed to be more independent than others.

But if, let’s say a flanker comes near to you and you are completely alone, then it should be pretty difficult to survive (again depends on the hero). But if you are getting peeled by the other support, then it should be much easier to survive.

67

having the opportunity to do something != they will do that thing
we can see it with all the bias balancing they’ve done leading to certain heroes being typically left behind.

idk what your point here is. I told you no, I didn’t think the idea of brawler tanks was just an experiment just then…

68

What dps can’t do this?

69

This is only the first beta, they already announced on the release of this beta.

And considered brawler tanks was still an experiment in half of 2020, i think they are really behind with the balancing and in general developing of overwatch 2.

I think this is a real beta test and not some type of demo of a soon to be released game.

The “fun” thing is they maybe will need months to fix it, because is improbable the game will be released soon.

70

This is their last chance for Overwatch series, i doubt they will not balance the game.

You are basing your idea on a different direction of Blizzard, now they have a different clear intention on making the make more skill based.

The point is brawler tanks was an experiment is confirmed by Blizzard.

And they was an experiment around two years ago and with covid and pve mode to be developed.

Knowing Blizzard and his slowness to create game, i’m not surprised they are not ready.

This isn’t a demo, is a beta.

71

considering they seemingly haven’t learnt anything from original dive meta as they’ve reverted themselves back into the same problem practically, doubt…

and they haven’t announced or given any indication of where they’re heading to fix the current issues being pointed out.

2 Likes
72

No you not understand.

Is totally intentional to have a more dinamic gameplay and more adapt to dive, they wanted from 2020 to have players to play more aggressively starting from the tanks.

This beta will be on until half of may, not remember the precise day now.

Is normal they not have announced any other changes…

Any changes will be for a successive beta.

73

also, do you not see the hypocrisy in supporting the “supports should just git gud” argument AND wanting duels with supports to be inherently in favor of yourself who’s on dps i.e. on a the easy side of the interaction?

Imo, that’s like DPS saying why can’t he 1v1 a tank. Because you’re not supposed to. In a role based shooter you are not always on equal footing on every interaction and that’s by design.

given how OW2 is supposed to be about EVERYONE having more individual impact and more individual playmaking, how do you want supports to have more individual impact and more individual playmaking if

I think individual impact just means that your individual skills matter more than they used to over team composition. It doesn’t mean you are getting more “playmaking” necessarily.

74

except you can’t claim they’re making the game more skillful when they’ve also made 1 particular way of playing (i.e. dive and hypermobility) straight up be ez winz with lack of things that can reasonably contest it.

not really. like you would have more changes or heck more sense of a direction of changes lined up for the future if, as you say, this was just a demo and nowhere near the complete vision for OW2.

2 Likes
75

I agree with some of that but at the same time all bets are off with the development cycle as OW 2 along with Owl being attached to it puts it in so many unpredictable directions.

I never thought they’d only focus on PvP first especially when my PvE is how they debuted the sequel announcement.

No matter what the players and beta testers find is going to get pushed out the way out if Owl players discover cheese strats to get that Win money while possibly ruining viewer experience like GOATS did.

For myself, it’s hard for me to understand what the plan and roadmap for this game is. I can’t recall a sequel that shows PvE but pushes that down the line to not debut with the sequel.

I’ve seen PvEs announced as dlc add ons or expansion packs but the devs change their minds as well as announcements from soon, to all of a sudden live in the game, to tbd.

It would make no sense for them to push this game out from but I don’t know, especially with Owl soon to be competing in this game.

Are they competing or will it just be exhibition for 2022? I don’t know.

Only thing I know for certain is OW 1 got two more meh remix events to look forward to. After that I have no clue what the plan is to drop next.

1 Like
76

They reduced importance of shields, raising the need of game awareness, positioning and maps/cover learning for many players.

They removed various stuns which was reducing the skill ceiling.

They added the dps boost speed passive which raise the need of reflexes and accuracy to hit them.

There is alot of more skills needed in Overwatch 2, is a fact.

Seems more you are projecting some grudge you have on Blizzard on the reality.

77

Because is marketed like a sequel but isn’t a real sequel.

Is more an attempt to relaunch a game with a rework to make it more skill based.

The pve is more here to justify the full price.

Considered they only started the betas, this only the first, not sure their intention for owl, but i think Blizzard will use it more like a showcase for the game and future betas.

There will be time for show pve when Overwatch 2, pve and pvp, will be close to the release.

78

There you go, it’s fixed.

If i queue as tank, i’m stronger than ever and i feel powerful.
If i queue as dps, i’m more free than ever to kill and assassinate.
If i queue as support, i have a more stressful experience than in OW1 and i feel helpless.

10 Likes
79

and yet you’ve been unable to answer where the “unequal footing” is supposedly in favor for supports for things to actually balance out :eyes:

individual skills can’t really matter more if there’s no playmaking. and one can’t have more individual impact if there’s no plays to be made individually.

e.g. you aiming better for more headshots on widow only really matter because getting more headshots are plays that matter (as they’re getting more picks). if aiming better doesn’t lead to getting more plays of getting picks, then it’s not getting you more impact.

now since you want supports to be good at giving sustain, nor do you want them to be capable of killing much, what exactly do you want their playmaking and impact be?

you have yet to answer that core question.

3 Likes
80

Not true.

Dps now with one less tank have alot more pressure and more enemies around flanking.

Tanks have all the damage for themself, no more off tank to help or fix their lack.

All this increase the need of game awareness, positioning and maps/covers learning for dps and tanks.

Not all supports are balanced for 5vs5 so anything we can say about is not complete, when they will be balanced we will have a more clear situation to evaluate.