Just see this video popup on my youtube and want to share.
It’s a good watch consider the situation we have with Widow and hanzo right now.
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I watched this a while ago and it’s a good piece.
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Good video.
I think that Widow and Hanzo were put in the game without considering how badly snipers contradict the rest of Overwatch’s original intended pacing and range of flights. I hope the New Devs can find a way to fix that.
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why wasnt a problem all those years ago tho. early 2000s i never heard anyone complain about a sniper. back in the old xbox days everyone admired anyone who was good with a sniper rifle. times are changing tho i guess heh
i mean old unreal, rainbow six, ghost recon, halo 2 etc
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we need mp5 widow guys
if you watch the video carefully you should see that he sees TF2’s Sniper as a very good approach and Widow is basically a much weaker but more mobile version of him.
In addition, the Overwatch Community seems to have the problem that snipers simply do their job/task. The problem with snipers in all other games is not that they are good at what they are supposed to do, but that they are also extremely effective in close combat thanks to quickscoping and body oneshots. Both abilities that Widow does not have.
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Except that he’s looking at the current version of TF2’s sniper, and Team Fortress had to change a lot of things about him to ensure that players felt properly engaged with him, and like there was plenty they could do despite the one shot.
Additionally, a lot of the Sniper in tf2 being fine comes from map design. They just plain have better map design for a game with snipers.
It’s easier to rework Widow than to rework several maps fundamentally. Like first point Junkertown is just not a good area in a game where Widow exists.
But I recommend looking at “You better hold onto your head, mate” by Robin Walker - May 5 2009.
As the Team Fortress 2 Developers described, poorly designed Sniper counterplay:
“When we started working on TF2, 22 years ago, we decided to examine the things that affected how players felt about their deaths in TFC. Our starting theory was that, for death to be a positive experience, players had to feel like they could have avoided dying if they’d done something different. We found two factors that seemed to be important in light of that theory:”
“The first was whether or not you understand what killed you. If you don’t know what killed you, that death is failing in providing you the feedback it’s supposed to, and you won’t be able to figure out what you could have done differently.”
"The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren’t engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn’t have engaged with, even if you chose to.
“Unsurprisingly, we saw that these deaths were highly aggravating to players, and in sufficient number caused new players to stop playing entirely.”
Please note the second paragraph: Whether you felt engaged with what killed you.
Widow’s entire premise in Overwatch is never being available to engage, and killing those she isn’t at all engaged with. And unlike The Sniper, we don’t have the benefit of map’s that are actually designed with Widow in mind to ensure you can actually always deal with her.
So no. It isn’t that the Overwatch Community has a problem with people doing their job/task. It’s that the maps do not support this being healthy. And the character is completely about avoiding any and all engagements. Not the healthiest thing.
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Ya no they have shown they cant without killing heros viability out right.
And people in the tf2 community also complain about sniper when they fight a good sniper because he rewards skill but it takes so much skill to get to his base level that like scout does and on top his base sniper rifle is the best rifle he has.
And even on maps with bad line of sight for sniper he can still be played effectively.
And after first point shes bad because its to tight if areas with decent flank routes.
And what about maps like well should pharah lucio or any other boop hero be reworked because they are super strong in a few maps.
No the overwatch community has a problem with heros doing their job look at junkrat genji mercy mei bastion torb sym all heros that people hate because of the job/task they do.
Also i hate widow i dont like how she plays or playing in to a good widow because they are scary but thats any hero really a insane rein will dominate or an insane ana insane sym its all skill thats the problem. And for tf2 i play sniper sense orange box hes alot and i mean alot stronger then widow ever has been
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yet, sniper can still oneshot most of the cast with a headshot at 0% and at 100% he can oneshot bodyshot most of the cast and even oneshot headshot an overcharged Heavy.
the equivalent in overwatch would be, that widow has 200 dmg with a 0% headshot and at 100% atleast 700 dmg with a headshot. additionally also a longer charge time.
That would be a massive buff for Widow.
Sniper is a far more powerful character than Widow ever was.
TF2 also has some movement acceleration which makes aiming easier and the chatacters in TF2 don’t have nearly as many movement options as in Overwatch, so Sniper does not need a Grapple unlike Widow.
It shouldn’t be that hard per se (depends on how the devtools work)
For Junkertown, how about placing 2-3 buildings in the open area between the payload path and the chasm? While Widow still has a good LoS on the payload, flankers could get much closer and safer to Widow thanks to the buildings.
If the map tools are built correctly, these buildings should be assembled quickly, if not already fully declared as an asset.
Monaco would need a stronger flanking option through the buildings at the start and for the statue space some trees could be placed to obstruct the view.
It depends a lot on how the tools work, of course, but it seems like it’s sort of possible, see the “A Night of Merry Map Design” stream where Talantis originated.
And how can it be that in other games, with far larger and more open maps, where snipers are far stronger, the communities hardly get upset about snipers who really snipe? e.g. PUBG, Battlefiled, EFT, PS2, COD, Warzone etc. This is really just a phenomenon in Overwatch/TF2.
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kinda stupid that they didn’t design the maps with snipers in mind.Widow was available from the start so wth?
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It absolutely was a problem years ago in OW. How do you counter a REALLY good sniper? Shields or diving on them. Snipers were the hidden reason behind all metas.
Also, other games arent OW.
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This is just false your trying to tell me moth, goats, double sheild, iron clad, pull hook and beyblade meta was because of snipers. Because if you are your just wrong
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Because in the early 2000s gaming was dominated by arena shooters where snipers were one of many strong power items.
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The problem with Overwatch isn’t snipers. It’s that this game has a bunch of bad players with no prior FPS experience who want to stand still and not get better at the game.
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And that’s with far more consideration from the devs than Widow has.
Which is a good thing. Consistency is nice to have.
If they are the only things being run on those maps as a result and they always dominate the lobby. Yes.
If they are unfun to face for the majority of players without making up for it with new added fun mechanics, complexities or the like that those players can enjoy. Yes. They should.
Junkrat. One shot combo that doesn’t feel fair.
Genji. Nanoblade. All his power is tied up in it. Would love to see it function similar to Hanzo dragon (which isn’t nanoable or damage boostable because it literally wasn’t able to be countered by anything including trans, we had a season of only Zarya+Hanzo+Ana/Mercy.
Would also let his neutral kit be buffed.
Mercy: Literally the best movement in the game. Difficult to hit even for the best players in the world.
Mei: Entire kit is all around not letting you play yours.
Bastion: I’ll take your side here. He just punishes bad positioning and gives time for people to get out of the way.
Torb: Low ranks can’t handle the turret. Similar problem to Moira in low rank where the lack of ability to hit something makes something dominant at lower levels.
Sym: Car wash.
But. And this is really important. With a really damn good Rein, insane Ana, or otherwise. They still will be forced to respect you, you will have opportunities to fight them at least on even ground, where you engage with them in a manner that lets you, you know. Have an impact.
I honestly think I’ve only seen a really good Widow get praised once for stomping. I’ve seen plenty of praise for players stomping on pretty much everything else (except Hanzo, or Cass back when he had flash-fan-the-hammer, or Sombra
Open queue allows Widow to one shot a lot of the tanks without damage boost. She can one shot many more of them with it. Like it or not that is a game mode where she functions a lot like Sniper as proposed by you.
Sniper also exists in his game with a dev team that actually designed maps specifically to ensure he was never going to be actually secure.
Honestly sure, I’d be down to at least try it. Would be far better. Was sleep deprived typing that, I think Havana or Circuit Royale is a better example of a map that just… Doesn’t have anything that would fit to help block the sightlines without a full map redesign.
Yes. I am a 3D artist I was just sleep deprived typing that.
Monacco? Oh god I forgot Circuit Royale had an alternate name. But yes. It would need that but even still, so many straights, and in my opinion I can’t imagine them really changing the first corridor, or the first point capture to actually be that much better against Widow.
Without well. Redesigning that part of the map from scratch.
I’m familiar. As mentioned prior, I’m an 3D artist (literally specialising in environment design), you have good points I was just sleep deprived and a bit… Nonsensical. Was also nonsensical in another thread.
Larger teams, less common, they tend to only get so many picks, peel for said snipers doesn’t really exist, insta picks don’t change the fight as much. Etc.
Also a lot of those iirc have dynamic spawns that help avoid long cases of this.
Also more things like smokes, flashes and even stuff like tanks to deal with it in a way that’s much harder to avoid. Was still frustrating in some maps where there’s a clearly superior snipers nest.
I know right?
Also they were kind of just… Not really as common as people assume.
Which is why it’s especially a problem in the top ranks. Oh wait…
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might also have to consider the fact that most fps games are trying to simulate live warfare. a real sniper will one shot people. also yea… any firearm can, doesnt have to be a sniper. i really hate violence and guns so i hate thinking about it. i just like it in video games since you respawn (except for battle royales, one of the reasons i dont play them anymore)
I played CS back when it first came out as a mod for Half-Life, before there was a combat knife and it was commonplace for the Ts to merk the hostages ASAP. People hated the AWP from the get-go and called AWP users… well, I can’t actually repeat the term here since it goes against ToS. I remember a lot of ill feeling towards snipers in TF:C and UT, too. 
it does seem like snipers are getting nerfed across most fps games nowadays. maybe people cant handle getting instagibbed.
every fps game has sheilds now and overshields. personally do i mind that not really since its nice to be somewhat tanklike. it is a preference tho since i remember back in the halo 2 days a lot of players liked the MLG mode (forgot what it was called actually). basically a 3 shot kill assault rifle compared to the normal game where everyone can take a fair amount of damage
the mayhem mode for overwatch is popular too a little. basically everybody being a tank. widow was pretty much useless in that mode
Because they have balanced snipers to work in thoes games, Palidins snipers dont 1 shot, valorant or csgo snipers are late game items, fortnight or apex make it so you arnt guaranteed to get a sniper.
Overwatch 2 is not balanced for snipers, they were barley balanced in OW1 with 2 tanks and shields and dive tanks.
there are some games where you can class a sniper. battlefield comes to mind and way back in the old days i use to love being a sniper in the return to castle wolfenstein multiplayer game. especially on the D-Day map as either ally or the germany faction
