PROOF - You CAN rank down & lose SR with Positive Win Ratio

Competitive Discussion
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This documents every character in the support role since I began my support competitive days up until today 7/16/21. We are the results using all the in-game statistics. You might notice like discrepancies because I did not include the draws until the end for a totaled all the numbers. This is because draw games do not have it impact on when percentage. I list Brig first because I play a lot more with Brig than any other character. At least I did learn one thing I should probably only use Brig lol.

Season 23 - Placed SR 2035 End SR 1795
@Brig
• Games Played - 79
• Games Won - 42
• Games Lost - 34
• Win Percentage - 55%

@Bap
• Games Played - 3
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 21%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 13
• Games Won - 4
• Games Lost - 9
• Win Percentage - 31%

@Mercy
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 41%

@Total
• Games Played - 96
• Games Won - 48
• Games Lost - 46
• Win Percentage - 51%

Season 24 - Season High SR 2009 End SR 1795
@Brig
• Games Played - 307
• Games Won - 173
• Games Lost - 128
• Win Percentage - 57%

@Ana
• Games Played - 10
• Games Won - 6
• Games Lost - 4
• Win Percentage - 59%

@Bap
• Games Played - 3
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 34%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 19
• Games Won - 7
• Games Lost - 12
• Win Percentage - 37%

@Mercy
• Games Played - 2
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 0%

@Moira
• Games Played - 2
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 18%

@Zen
• Games Played - 3
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 3
• Win Percentage - 12%

@Total
• Games Played - 346
• Games Won - 187
• Games Lost - 152
• Win Percentage - 55%

Season 25 - Season High SR 2071 End SR 1703
@Brig
• Games Played - 102
• Games Won - 55
• Games Lost - 43
• Win Percentage - 56%

@Ana
• Games Played - 8
• Games Won - 4
• Games Lost - 4
• Win Percentage - 52%

@Bap
• Games Played - 16
• Games Won - 5
• Games Lost - 11
• Win Percentage - 31%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 2
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 71%

@Mercy
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 24%

@Moira
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 19%

@Zen
• Games Played - 4
• Games Won - 2
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 54%

@Total
• Games Played - 134
• Games Won - 67
• Games Lost - 63
• Win Percentage - 52% (51.5%)

Season 26 - Season High SR 1907 End SR 1796
@Brig
• Games Played - 121
• Games Won - 69
• Games Lost - 51
• Win Percentage - 58%

@Ana
• Games Played - 4
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 3
• Win Percentage - 27%

@Bap
• Games Played - 4
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 3
• Win Percentage - 31%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 9
• Games Won - 4
• Games Lost - 5
• Win Percentage - 40%

@Mercy
• Games Played - 2
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 54%

@Zen
• Games Played - 10
• Games Won - 3
• Games Lost - 6
• Win Percentage - 28%

@Total
• Games Played - 150
• Games Won - 79
• Games Lost - 70
• Win Percentage - 53%

Season 27 - Season High SR 1996 End SR 1862
@Brig
• Games Played - 26
• Games Won - 16
• Games Lost - 10
• Win Percentage - 60%

@Ana
• Games Played - 5
• Games Won - 2
• Games Lost - 3
• Win Percentage - 42%

@Bap
• Games Played - 2
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 30%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 1%

@Moira
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 0%

@Zen
• Games Played - 2
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 17%

@Total
• Games Played - 37
• Games Won - 19
• Games Lost - 19
• Win Percentage - 50%

I checked the numbers multiple times for some reason I have 19 games and 19 games lost which is 38 games but only 37 games played maybe I got a disconnect or something. Still this adds up to a 50% win rate

Season 28- Season High SR 1990 End SR 1626
@Brig
• Games Played - 57
• Games Won - 31
• Games Lost - 26
• Win Percentage - 55%

@Ana
• Games Played - 6
• Games Won - 2
• Games Lost - 3
• Win Percentage - 40%

@Bap
• Games Played - 9
• Games Won - 2
• Games Lost - 7
• Win Percentage - 23%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 11
• Games Won - 4
• Games Lost - 6
• Win Percentage - 39%

@Mercy
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 0
• Win Percentage - 53%

@Moira
• Games Played - 12
• Games Won - 5
• Games Lost - 8
• Win Percentage - 37%

@Zen
• Games Played - 5
• Games Won - 0
• Games Lost - 5
• Win Percentage - 8%

@Total
• Games Played - 101
• Games Won - 45
• Games Lost - 55
• Win Percentage - 45%

I was well aware that last season I tanked for some reason in support so I guess it makes sense

Season 29 - Season High SR 1773 Cur. SR 1705
@Brig
• Games Played - 14
• Games Won - 8
• Games Lost - 5
• Win Percentage - 60%

@Ana
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 1
• Win Percentage - 50%

@Bap
• Games Played - 1
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 0
• Win Percentage - 64%

@Lucio
• Games Played - 4
• Games Won - 1
• Games Lost - 2
• Win Percentage - 49%

@Total
• Games Played - 20
• Games Won - 11
• Games Lost - 8
• Win Percentage - 58% (57.8%)

ALL Seasons Grand Total of ALL Games Played with ALL supports from ALL my Role Q Support Games. Placement SR 2035, Ending SR 1705, 330 SR

@GRAND TOTAL
• Games Played - 884
• Games Won - 456
• Games Lost - 413
• Win Percentage - 52%
• (15 draw games)

As you can see despite having a 52% win ratio and a higher amount of games one versus games lost (by a difference of 43 more games won which even at 20SR per match would have gained 860SR net positive & at 25SR 1075SR).

Now I never quit a match and I’ve only disconnected like three times, and I’m not even sure if those three times were while playing support. The only explanation is I can think of is I got robbed with the PBSR system, So as you can see I have a higher win percentage, and I usually perform well with Brig which is most my games. Very rarely do I play other characters which I don’t perform as well with So still my PBSR are should if calculated correctly I’d imagine wouldn’t be gimping me or shouldn’t be gimping me.

But there you go If you ever want to proof That the game just makes it a giant grind fest and that having more wins you amazingly can still go down in rank, no it is not an illusion It actually happens.

Thanks Blizzard.

16 Likes
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The game uses performance-based SR when below diamond.

You’re not really making any big revelations.

It just means you’re getting carried in your wins.

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I already addressed that and after playing close to a thousand games and still maintaining higher win ratio It should be pretty clear that I’m not being carried and if you are going to argue that I’m still being carried after this amount of games, then you’re also pushing into forced win ratio territory because esssentially your saying that despite being worse game after game I am not falling below 50% win ratio like I’m supposed to. Not only that but I have 40 more wins than losses in the the end that even at the reduced SR rate of 20 per win would have been an 860 SR Buffer. And I also highly doubt that throughout my whole entire career I have stayed 1700 SR. That would essentially mean that this whole time playing I have not improved or get any worse since I first started playing support essentially plateauing after my first game.

I’m sorry but you’re just assuming something negative when it makes far less sense.

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  1. Season placements tend to put you lower than the preceding season’s SR; meaning you’re losing some SR this way. You did not account for this SR in your grand total method.

  2. The amount of SR you gain and lose depends on your MMR, PBSR, and your odds of winning the match against the MMR/SR of the opponents.

  • If your PBSR is weak, then you need a higher win rate to climb as the modifier you receive will be negligible
  • If you’re only winning games that favor your team’s MMR and you’re losing games that do not favor your MMR, then you will not gain much SR
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Carried in a pbsr sense. In other words you spawncamp their team as lucio. But your 5 bots, wipe to the world’s most obvious dva bomb, and the moira/mercy etrick asks you to heal and tells everyone about her gold healing, and ends up getting a ton of pbsr/pbmmr because she “carried” in Scott Mercer’s system.

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Since you’re a brig main I went into your profile and looked at your stats, u have and average of 7.73 deaths per 10 minutes on brig, the most important thing you need to do on brig is just existing, and you aren’t existing if you’re dead that often.

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Based. To add on to your take. Minimizing deaths on any character is a key to climbing. Minimizing deaths = less mistakes. When I say minimize deaths I don’t mean afk… Just playing more cover (natural cover is the best), being aware of flankers and taking less damage than usual.

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Well two things regarding that, First would be that it’s easier said than done in higher ranks than it is in lower. Lower rank play requires me to be more risky in order to get the extra value I need to win to carry as a support. Aside from that I don’t think my survivability is that bad

I actually posted it replay not so long ago KDRBE5 realistically I only die like Two or three times within within like an 8 minute period. Give me a decent team where I don’t have to take unnecessary risks and sure dying less would be easy.

But that’s that alone isn’t much to go on. Like I said the game place changes depending on the game. Lower ranks are more hectic some games you’ll get good players some games you won’t some games you tanks will be lacking and you have to tank some games your DPS is lacking and you have to try to get picks I’ve had games where I’ve gotten 11 deaths but they were completely out of sheer necessarity because I’m forced to try to tank with Brig

You do realize that according to the statistics posted here this would mean that my gameplay has plateaued ever since I began the competitive mode Just get us consistently stayed at 1700 season by season and with the last few months I think I’ve improved a lot more actually than I have in a while. But in this example getting better has done me no good unless you’re literally going to believe that I plateaued on my first game and haven’t gotten better since.

I’ve actually had enough seasons to watch what placements do. And doing of an average of 25 SR win or lose After the five games I would compare my previous end of season rank to my new rank after placements and From the tests ive done All that displacements matches seem to do were to hide your SR games until the five rounds are over and then it reveals them because if I added up the wins and losses of my round and the expected SR it would just equal pretty close to the same thing. I’ve never had placements substantially affect my rank like that

I’m aware of that, I also already addressed this in the post.

I’ve addressed the possibility of this being true in my post but I don’t think I underperform to the point where my PVSR should be that weak. Which is why I really don’t like the PBSR system to be honest It seems to work correctly for me and DPS and tank but never in support.[quote=“Violence-11154, post:4, topic:623854”]
If you’re only winning games that favor your team’s MMR and you’re losing games that do not favor your MMR, then you will not gain much SR
[/quote]

Possibility, but as the whole argument has been made here on the forums many times, when adhering to the reality of averages over time this would be negligible as I would get have as many games where my MMR was higher as I would when my MMR was lower Especially over the span of 884 games.

Anyway regardless of all the reasons why this could or could not happen I’m still not a fan of the current system. Cuz I don’t believe he BSR or MMR works correctly all the time As a matter of fact the odds that it does work correctly all the time and it’s an error prone is highly unlikely considering the AI it would need to guarantee this. Removal of PBS on in the morning would be better because it wouldn’t risk possible errors… but this is just my opinion and I am well aware that the current reality is what I have to deal with

In the end, The topic was to prove that it is possible and it is possible regardless of my circumstance, to which no one can truly say for certain neither me or anyone else what exactly is causing it. We can only make assumptions but what is proven is that it’s possible to rank down despite having a higher win ratio.

1 Like
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Then why did you do the calculation with the average SR gain of 20-25?

Your PBSR is rated against other players using the same hero on the same map. The system is the same across all roles.

Mathematically it should work out fine. If you’re losing games that you should be winning, your SR will drop even with a >50% winrate. Example: If you’re getting 25 SR per win, but losing 26 SR per loss, you will have a net deficit of -413 SR over those 884 games even with a 52% winrate.

The more games you play, the less error there is. This is why people can buy new accounts and place several hundred SR above their main account. However, if they continue playing on the alt, they eventually reach their previous SR. The current MMR system prevents you from experiencing an inordinate number of unfair games.

There is no PBSR in Diamond and above. PBSR helps you escape elos that you don’t belong in faster.

If you can improve your gameplay, you can climb. I’ve looked at your replay. What is your ideal SR and what SR do you think you deserve?

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PBSR is broken due to smurfs/hackers, and it was never a good idea in the first place in a game where you have people playing different comps/people playing in groups/solo/people playing specifically for PBSR, neglecting win conditions. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know I’m sure, but this would be why you nonsensically lose rank while having a positive win rate.

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I went 3 seasons in a row with a sub 50% win rate, and am higher SR on 2/3 roles. I also took a peek at your stats, and the numbers are fairly low, meaning you wouldn’t benefit from PBSR at all (and if it was removed, chances are you would have a sub 50% win rate since the games would be much harder every couple wins).

You really need to up your damage/healing/inspire up-time, final blows, and die a lot less often. I generally lose between 14-21 SR on my losses, but gain 28-35 on my wins, I literally have to lose 2 games to be down SR from 1 win. Over-all I do not think you would have gained any additional SR if PBSR was removed, but for players like myself, I would have fallen into the pits of Bronze, and clearly, I do not belong there with my current gains/losses.

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Nice post but this data is too easy to manipulate.

It’s well known the SR gain/loss speeds-up with consecutive wins or losses so to prove your post correct you could’ve simply played normally and then tanked your last 20 losses for each char (mainly Brig as your most played).

You’ll deny it likely but because it’s theoretically possible (I’ve done this before myself) your post can’t be proven as true and therefore is pointless when trying to prove it as ‘fact.’

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Except you can’t really “play well” as a healer. You don’t make giant plays like the other roles do.

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You’re right!! A “healer” can’t make plays….

A Support, however, most certainly can.

You need to play the role correctly to have positive impact.

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idk what to tell u, mby just play a hard carry supports and get some sr… mby play zen/ana/bap and dps more often. If u do play brig keep inspire up.

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This isn’t news. You’re underperforming (stats) for your rank and role if that happens.

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I was being a bit vauge, but more specifically I mean a brig always needs to be present in the fight to get value, unlike a doom or tracer who cannot always stay in the fight. That’s what I mean by “existing”. Sorry bout that.

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Yikes!

This dude presented real info … positive win rate and it’s hundreds of SR? HUNDREDS if dude stay the same and was within +_ 50 it’s whatever but HUNDREDS LOWER???

I love the game, borderline addicted, trying to improve myself, but the system is can’t be this strict??

This IS elo hell. Classification vs progression.

  • I’ll add, wins vs loss was suppose to be the de facto gauge NOT stats. PBSR as myst says is suppose to minor adjustments. If anything this goes back to clarity and definition of “minor”. 300 SR could mean the difference between game quality right?
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Lol. [20 characters]

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It’s not actually “hundreds” of SR if we had real data. OP did the calculation assuming an average of 20 or 25 SR per win. SR gains and losses clearly vary across a much wider range than what was presented. Given OP’s winrate, they are losing games they should be winning and under performing in games they should be winning.

1 Like