Proof, picking ball as an ow2 tank, increases your teammates death rate, thus their k/d. K/d is a major means in pbsr, and presumably in mmr.
A choice in toon by your tank predetermines your performance. Pbsr gives you extra sr on win, and lowers sr on loss.
Pbsr needs to account which tank you had while you are performing when comparing your stats against other people’ stats. I.e my k/d as a dps will be better if my tank is junker queen or sigma.
Pbsr needs to be relative to the toon you pick, and of the toons your teammates pick (better yet, your opponents pick, and better how well they did with their pick).
OW1 doesn’t account for relative stats on toon choices and can be seen as another way a “system” without adequate support can artificially influence “a skill rating” for better or for worse.
And since this system has been shown to pair non casuals with casuals. A woefully underperforming casual player can affect your mmr (given mmr or deaths maybe used in mmr), for your next match.
If you perform better than your teamates, lowering their KDR, you will win more Sr and loose less too. It’s not fair but it’s the game and it’s already working like that. It helps to parse players under the diamond rank.
i’ve never tried but you can probably tryhard as an healer letting the another one die constantly, not healing him and win more SR too. As some streamers say, your teamates are your ennemies too, you have to use them not help them. It is the sad truth about this game. some players are lured by the teamplay of OW but there’s no really teamplay.
You have to compare your WR and your KDR, when you play with a Hammond in your team to be objective. Maybe you die more but win more games too. DVA it’s the same issue. You can have a very high KDR thanks to baby Dva. You have just to hide waiting to get back your mech and it’s easy to have a lot of assists.
Once again showing your blatant misunderstanding of the game. Ball in his essence ignores his own backline in favor of targeting the enemy backline. So while your supports may die more often, the enemy supports will too. You don’t pick ball and expect your supports to have full uptime.
There’s also no evidence that teammate death rate has any direct correlation to win rate. Dva has a solid ‘teammate death rate’, yet she has the second lowest win rate in the game. Doomfist has a lower ‘teammate death rate’ than dva, yet he has a higher win rate. There is no correlation.
For some reason you think that character choices matter in your gold games that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Nobody knows how to play characters properly, or how to counter characters properly. The better players win the game, not the better characters.
You don’t even know if pbsr isn’t already doing this, and if they are it would be a terrible idea to tell anyone. The goal in ranked is to win the game, not farm states to get more sr. Anytime players care more about stats than winning, you have a huge problem. There’s a good reason pbsr is only used till diamond.
This notion that a single match is going to drastically change your mmr is so fake. Only at the start of accounts, and then it’s completely justified considering the system wants to move you to the correct spot as fast as possible. When you’re 30 seasons in, a single match means virtually nothing. Play consistently well or consistently poor and then your mmr will move.
I don’t know who you are calling a casual considering everybody in gold is a casual. Just because you care more about winning than others doesn’t put you above them, and it certainly doesn’t mean you aren’t still a casual. You play at a casual level, you are a casual player. Get over yourself.
While JunkerQueen and Sigma provides more sustain and damage mitigation to your team, ball provides pressure on the enemy and grab their attention, meaning that your team will be more free to do more damage themselves.
As you might know, PSBR doesn’t JUST look at K/D. Damage, healing, accuracy and more are ALL taking into account and compared to the average player in the rank you are playing in.
I dont understand what your guys obsessesion with PSBR is when it literally doesnt affect the average player in the rank.
You dealing 1000 DMG more damage and increasing your accuracy by 10% in ONE match, wont magically raise your MMR to a new rank.
UNLESS YOU DO IT CONSISTENTLY
No it doesnt, you are not compared directly to your teammates, you are compared to the average of the whole RANK.
That’s literally team sabotage and extremely dumb to even consider doing, when your teammate’s stats in that match do NOT for your SR gains/losses.
Who?
Absolutely wrong, just because there is no teamplay in low to mid elo because of terrible coordination and understanding of the game, doesn’t mean high elo is the same.
Watch some high elo games and you will SEE.
I just dont understand HOW they even come up with the idea that you should let your other support die more by not healing them so YOU can get better stats, its unreal how crazy this is…
Obviously they have some impact but if sym one tricks can get to 4500, hero choices can’t matter that much. Being better at your character is 100% more important.
100% true. There is a reason why even terrible comps can still win here in GM, and that is due to individual skill and carry potential still being high and randoms even in GM aren’t too coordinated.
You are compared to your teamates. I’ve already played with smurfs in my team with insanes stats, and in case of a victory you win peanuts like 5-10 sr…I’m usually àat 20-25. You have probably forgotten what’s PBSR is, if you are a GM.
Your teamates are part of your Elo too. It’s elementary arithmetic.
Absolutely wrong, just because there is no teamplay in low to mid elo because of terrible coordination and understanding of the game, doesn’t mean high elo is the same.
Watch some high elo games and you will SEE.
Where did i said that? Show me. I was talking about under Diamond ranks. Don’t feel concerned each time a player is talking about the game just bcause you are GM.
It’s funny, obviously we start with my “blatant” misunderstanding (and I’m trying to understand for the last 6 years), yet you go right into what I think is a blatant misunderstanding of the data. The graph for ball was ALL hero death rates. So while you type about back lines your also missing out on the whole other half of the team, the dps.
Everybody dies more when ball is the tank, and then everybody’s post goes to “defend” ball and as to what he brings to justify, but you all are missing the point.
If a soldier has a ball as a tank, I only want his stats to be compared to other soldiers with balls as tanks. I think it’s unfair and a little sloppy, to compare soldiers performance when having a ball as a tank vs a Reinhard as a tank. That’s all I’m saying. You can save the justifications to the balance lords.
Cool story, didn’t say there was. Win or loss that non relative pbsr is not comparing apples to apples. However since you brought up win rate and orisa was the lowest, I thought it was “unfortunate “ that orisa’s death numbers were missing. Imagine hers being higher than balls… yikes. Maybe I’ll look again, maybe they split a column and I didn’t see it.
Statistics are litterly provided to you showing that it does. Mind you they didn’t provide rank difference but maybe averaged them all up, but YES if someone chooses ball as their tank, the likelihood for ALL teammates deaths go higher. Talk about far from the truth, that’s what the graph shows. For ALL games when the tanks were different.
That’s fair. I think that’s the only point worth merit. And in a way we both win.
We don’t know what changes mmr. And my death rate increases cause of ball. It could lower my mmr. That is a sound logical conclusion. I fail to see how it’s fake.
Irrelevant and or a mute point. 1. We don’t know what it’s looking at or if it’s even weighed. 2. We know for certain death rates are higher, and according to apm logic. You can do actions while your dead. So overall going back to the system, I rather it compare me to someone with the same team makeup for a “skill” qunatifier.
If you don’t understand, I don’t understand then why you have to comment. Because any point I make, if you don’t understand, then you won’t get it or it’s not important to you, so therefore any valid or invalid point is not going to change your mind and thus not have a true forum of ideas.
Zax to the rescue. A true person who I believe is high ranked but without the high elo ego. Any rank with the right character picks will make winning or losing difference.
That’s more character balance and “who” you play with. A sym might have had a hitscan person for the pharah counter. Saying an end journey ones not discribe the journey itself.
Tl;dr
The link provided is undeniable proof that other peoples toon choices affect your performance or at least your probable performance - win or lose. That’s why I hope, and you should too, a “relative” toon comparisons should be made when comparing performance.
I could be 30% onboard with the idea when the game and its balancing is totally donezo, and has been for atleast a year. Until then I think it’ll just eff everything up more than it’d help.
Analyzing the stats for balancing is another thing tho
DPS is largely irrelavent in this conversation. With ball, you should be playing dive dps like tracer, genji, sombra, which have survivability on their own. If you are dying often on those heros, it’s a player issue, not a tank issue. If you are playing non dive dps with ball, and getting punished, isn’t that your own fault?
The important part about this discussion is that your system rewards players for making poor hero choices. You shouldn’t be compensated sr for playing symmetra with ball, and then proceeding to lose. Players will get into this mentality of playing sub optimal heros on purpose to salvage their sr. I don’t think this is at all worth the ‘benefit’.
It’s extremely relavent. Team death rate is a cherry picked stat to make ball look like the worst tank. It’s like surmising that winston is a bad tank because he does less damage than other tanks. But you don’t play winston for his damage, just like you don’t play ball to peel for your squishies.
It’s a misleading stat. Define heros by their worst trait and any of them can look bad. Teammate death rate isn’t even a particularly important stat. This is the first time we’ve ever seen it.
You’re starting to draw conclusions from data that we don’t have. We can conclude that teammate death rate has little to no impact on win rate, but you say it’s not about winning or losing, so throw that out.
That means you’re saying that stats are lowered when tanks with low teammate death rates are played, but we don’t have the stats to confirm or deny that. Either way, your end goal is to salvage the 3 extra PBSR you might’ve lost. There’s no way that is worth any manpower implenting a new system to compensate for that. But again, we don’t have the stats so you can’t even make that argument.
See you’re still assuming that teammate death rate is a relavent stat to winning the game. We know it’s not. Specific stats are not important in the slightest if win rates are fine. If ball’s win rate was as low as orisas, then clearly there is a problem, but it isn’t.
My point about hero choices is that gold players don’t know how to play characters properly, or know how to count them properly. Some heros might perform better because they are easy, or just generally broken, but the point stands. I don’t fault you for caring about what your team plays, but you shouldn’t care about it past that singular game. Variance sorts out good and bad team comps anyways.
I mean we kinda do? Wins and losses obviously, as well as general stats. It’s very safe to say that, for example, damage and final blows are factored in PBSR, of course affecting MMR. We also know mmr stabilizes at a certain point. So when you reach this point, it takes more than one good or bad game to move your MMR. This one game with a ball player is ultimately meaningless unless you queue into ball otps for the end of time, which isn’t happening.
Not super relavent since I obviously can’t prove it, but I wouldn’t even be surprised if deaths are not factored at all in MMR and PBSR at all. High Deaths don’t directly mean you are having low value like low damage does. If you can guarantee killing two every fight on doomfist, but dying, that’s good value. Sometimes you just have to feed on tank to create an opening for your team.
There are a few sym otps that get that high on ladder and they are full soloq. Sym isn’t a hero you can play on any map no matter how balanced she is. Yet people still reach close to max rank.
It’s not really about being able to counter sym easily or anything like that. If you try to counter her with pharah, well now you’re playing a bad character in a rank where people play around her properly, and will actually swap. You’ll still have your good share of unwinnable games if you otp. It’s just general value of the hero. Sym has a lot less dps output than say ashe or hanzo.
Why? Because YOU say so? The data presented said all hero’s death and your cherry picking already… tsk tsk. Oh cause even if dps should survive on their own, gee golly having ball affect characters that should survive on their own would defeat your whole point, how convenient.
What? The system doesnt tell people who to pick. If you lose… you lose. Much like the current system. You lose with better stats you dont lose as much, MUCH LIKE THE CURRENT SYSTEM. - very poor argument. You just CAME UP with something and applied to the system. Very odd.
ITS THE ONLY STAT THEY PROVIDED! and frankly I dont care about his balance as a character. You still missing the point.
If you die more, your generally going to have lower stats. Its a logical conclusion. I guess your right…? but its pretty str8 forward, dont die… to do more value.
You just attached to “winning the game”. I’m presenting the stat that THEY provided. I wish they provided more.
Its your point and your opinion. The graphs provided shows no matter what rank your in (cause they didnt have ranks in the beta), other toons will affect your stats, I’m sorry, your opinion is wrong.
And yet… they said ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL heros… that include dive heros. Did they go into specific heros? NOOO. for goodness sake man… sometimes you got to pick your battles.
Other people’s toons affect your performance or at least the probability of your performance.
At all ranks - beta didnt have ranks
All HEROS - as specified. Not just backline, not just non dive dps, ALLLLLLL HEROS.
Oh and dps is relavent because YOU say so? I explained to you why they are only a minor part of the equation. Agree or disagree with me, but at least I have some actual reasoning. Also, it’s called interpreting the data, look into it. Maybe learn the definition of cherry picking.
I’m not gonna sit here and explain to you the very basics of dive and ball comps but it’s clear you don’t understand them. Dive is very aggressive, you all in to kill back line, you might die, whatever. If you win the game who cares how many times you or your team died.
Ok listen, and think realistically. The reason PBSR above diamond was removed was because of one tricks, and people abusing low play rate heros to get more PBSR. Heros with low play rates have corresponding low stats. This makes it way easier to farm stats, and therefore extra SR, from the system. This problem grows exponentially as you go up higher in SR as there is less and less data for the MMR system to compare your stats to. It became enough of a problem that blizzard removed PBSR in diamond+ to maintain rank integrity.
Now, you’re probably thinking that it’s a high elo problem, why should it matter to you. Well, it’s two main issues. The first one is your data pool shrinks considerably. You’re getting too specific with the stats, and as we saw before, PBSR needs a large enough data pool so stats aren’t skewed. There won’t be enough data on how sombra performs with roadhog.
The next problem is more theoretical, but you have to expect this from players. Implementing another layer onto PBSR gives players something that is ‘ripe for abuse’. This is a concept developers have to be wary of. With the data getting too specific you now have something players can manipulate to give them more SR. You get a ball on your team? Nobody ever players torb with ball: easy to farm PBSR. So now you have players farming easy SR, and they are griefing games with bad hero picks.
Your system built to compensate bad teammate hero choices is now encouraging players to choose bad synergies on purpose. Well what’s the benefit of this system? Not very much. Even assuming the system only kicks in to salvage some of your SR when your teammate chooses a bad hero (not yourself), you get what, some sr back? Not at all worth the hassle of comitting manpower to develop and create this system for something 99% of players will never notice.
Not to mention, this would only be implemented in below diamond. PBSR is meant to get smurfs out of low ranks as fast as possible, it does that just fine already. Hopefully you understand that for such a little payout, and obvious risks, this system will never exist.
Then don’t create narritives when you don’t have the full picture. But the funny thing is, we have the most improtant stat already, overall win rates. The conversation should be over right here when you can see that D.va, a character with a good ‘teammate death rate’, has one of the worst win rates in the game. Don’t ignore that.
Logically yes, but then you start to make the game about farming stats. OW1 doomfist, for example, has the all in play style of trading one life for one or more. You might farm dozens of deaths but if you can get impact frags, it’s all worth it. This is why I think the game doesn’t actually punish you for deaths. You can have similiar stats with somebody with mucher fewer deaths if you are really doing a lot on your all ins.
Nobody cares about stats, especially deaths, as long as you win. If ball has a low win rate and a super high ‘teammate death rate’, then you might be onto something. But you’re not.
the amount a player is “On Fire” does not directly affect SR adjustments due to player performance. ... The determination of being “On Fire” examines not just your own performance, but your performance relative to your teammates. The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches.
Well, not really. Since SR is just a facade for MMR, and MMR is expressed as a deviation from the mean, your SR can go up and the SR/MMR you gain would be spread amongst everyone below you, though it updates only on them playing a game.
You’re increasing the overall mean skill of the entire playerbase, so everyone’s current skill is newly lower in comparison to the mean you adjusted.
Of course, it works both ways, if you’re tanking your SR everyone else goes up a bit.
