You can’t shield manage your way through the never ending spam and cc, sorry
yes you can, there is a reason why rein is meta right now
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I’m having no trouble keeping people up as Ana recently lol maybe we should make it so she has a bottom less clip so people have a easier time playing her.
Not true.
For example, lets say they decrease Mercy’s healing another 20%, and increase the rez CD to 45 seconds. Would you agree that makes Mercy UP?
Now, lets say they also delete every other healer. Mercy would simultaneously be underpowered, because they gutted what she can do, and essential, because she’s the only healer available.
For a hero to be OP, there need to be relatively few ways for the enemy to deal with them compared to how many ways they have to deal with the enemy. A hero that only has 1 counter but counters 12 heroes is OP.
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Healers can’t keep up right now, which means that everyone else should be playing carefully and looking for proper engagements. This doesn’t necessarily make the game worse but people have to catch on and stop expecting the healers to do all the heavy lifting.
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You have more faith in the community then I do.
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Thank you for the thoughtful post.
As a flex Tank player who prefers Reinhardt over all other tanks, i have to agree that if focused, Rein’s shield gets shredded in less than 3 seconds especially on Attack through a choke point. However, the same can be said of Winston’s bubble although Winston is not a barrier tank per se. Orisa definitely is in a similar position as Rein but Orisa can shoot back which forces the Red Team Damage Dealers to break focus fire and offer a reprieve.
As it stands, there appears to be nothing from Blizzard about buffing Reinhardt in any way and unfortunately, with the meta as it is + stats as they are, most would say that Rein is kinda in an alright position…
The caveat to that is that Rein is only in an “alright place” if and only if the Team plays around him. The times in QP when i have won and steam rolled the Red Team as Reinhardt is when my team plays around me. Rein, with his shield up is not supposed to be moving in alone. His team mates need to be behind the shield attacking the Red Team to force the Red DPS players to scatter. There is also where the flankers or secondary tank comes in, if there are any.
Honestly, when i am playing Reinhardt, a Moira or Mercy may be a better fit for me when i drop shield and wade into battle because there is no delay in their HPS compared to Ana. Which is why i thought that Ana was kinda nerfed when they made her unable to “pre-heal”. I think that the only thing which an Ana player can do, if s/he is the main and only healer is to snipe the Red Team behind Rein and maybe ready a sleep dart + throw a 'Nade in anticipation of the inevitable Shield Barrier breakage and Rein charging in. The less HP the Red Team has + no heals, the more Rein is able to be effective and take down as many as he can within the first 3 swings. Then timing is key is making sure that Rein gets some HPS before he is eventually taken down.
P.S. As a Reinhardt player, do allow me to mention that we expect to die. A lot. It comes with the territory. So long as the team wins and we know that our healer (if there is one) is doing all s/he can to save us, we are very appreciative. =)
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The most recent nerf to Mercy has her underperforming compared to the other two main healers:
- Moira heals for 80 HPS on first “puff”, 50 HPS for next 3 sec, 75 HPS from her biotic orb, 140 HPS for others hit with ult, 50 HPS for herself
- Ana’s grenade heals for 100 health and gives +50% healing from any source to those splashed for 4 seconds. This means her graduation to 140 HPS from her base rate of 1 shot=75pt healat a rate of 1.25 shots per second (or ~94 HPS).
- Lucio doesn’t heal for as much per individual target but he heals each person in his area for ~16 HPS and himself for ~12 HPS. When he amps things up every 12 seconds it goes to ~47 HPS for others and 35 HPS for himself.
Mercy isn’t in line with most of the healers, she’s under them.
She is only better at healing than Zenyatta. But Zenyatta, unlike Mercy, can still nullify ultimates.
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Reinhardt just requires usage of a side tank and healing. His entire play-style is built around 2000 hp and it taking forever to recharge which means you need to hold up near a corner waiting for it to recharge or you rush in there letting him attack which is good as its free time to build up charge, have an extra dps, and get some healing built up for the team under the fire.
In order for him to attack your 2nd tank and healer pick up the slack as 2000 hp previous was soaking up all the damage giving healers less to heal through. What teams often lack is a 2 tank and 2 healing core at the very minimum. Many lower level will see something like Reinhardt + a main healer.
Neither of these are strong enough on their own right which people seem to fail to realize. It would be better if more teams have self sustain heroes like s76, mei, tracer, etc. to ease how much healing the single person has to do, but sadly that is rarely the case.
I feel Reinhardt is fine particularly if you get the zarya/dva + rein, +2 healers with close proximity to Reinhardt. He is perfectly fine.
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Reinhardt has a lot of counters compared to other tanks:
1: he has no range.
2: no mobility.
3: tank busters.
4: Shield busters.
5: and CC.
We just want to be better against CC to do his job properly. Saying that CC is the only mean to counter him is absurd.
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[quote=“GramChan-11971, post:1, topic:192523”]
The job as a tank is to absorb
[/quote]You can stop right there. A tank’s job is to either create space or to maintain created space.
I’d question if it might be a case of some of the tanks being so strong that they require excessive effort to take down and that effort frequently isn’t fun to play against.
Tank pick rates would be dropping more and DPS would be rising more I’d think if DPS were creeping forward. I’m seeing a lot of 2-2-2 even in QP.
That’s gotta stink for the tank but, that was one huge effort to bring him down and it still took six seconds of him being barely able to move.
It’s certainly not the only way, but it has been the standard way since day 1. Generally because tank/shield busters have never been worth using.
In general it’s similar to trying to use Winston, except he’s far weaker to tank busters than Rein is, but better than he is against long ranged enemies.
Agree, agree. CC back then was manageable, but what screwed Reinhardt the most was mobility heroes and the lack of mobility of his own. But things are different now, hard CC abilities are way too much for him to handle, and he is still as slow as ever to add on that.
Anyways, I did a thing lately, a small research about characters deaths per game if you would say, but I focused more on tanks. And it turns that Reinhardt has the most number of deaths in the tanks category by a “huge” margin and I’m not even exaggerating. Reinhardt has an average of 9.50 deaths per game in GM competitive rank, while the other tanks (excluding D.va) hover around 8 to 7 deaths. D.va has the lowest death per game with only 6.40 deaths. This means Reinhardt dies more than the other tanks by 2 deaths per game, and we are talking about GM here where this is the top 1% of the player base. I’m Only going to compare Reinhardt to Orisa because the two covers almost the same role during a match. She has exactly 8.0 deaths compared to Reinhardt’s 9.5.
Not only that, Reinhardt has more deaths than most characters on the game. Only those who got higher death per game are Junkrat, Doomfist, Bastion, and Reaper. I don’t know about you, but I think he dies alot for a tank…
In conclusion, Reinhardt “in my opinion” needs a buff to his survivability. The tank with most deaths of 9.5 while the rest of the tanks got around 8~7. In a game like Overwatch, dying is the worst thing you could do…
Theres few ideas to buff his survivability from my perspective with making him op. And I was going to make a thread about this topic, but I think what Rein needs desperately first is for his game-ruining bugs to be fixed. If they ever came…
He doesn’t need a buff because he dies more often. He’s performing very well right now despite those deaths.
That’s also probably in part due to the way different comps play out. Orisa is chiefly a turtle comp hero, and dive is chiefly a stalling comp if played correctly. Deathball is the most aggressive comp.
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And yet he’s the most picked tank at every rank by an overwhelming margin. Deaths aren’t a particularly meaningful metric given that Rein is a frontliner. I mean, by your own admission, D.Va has the fewest deaths. It doesn’t mean she’s overpowered, just hard to kill.
If you think Reinhardt needs to die less, that just raises the question of what you think Blizzard should nerf about him to keep parity among the tanks. After all, we all know a stronger Reinhardt is just going to be even more popular than he already is at the expense of literally everyone else in his class.
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Zarya and Roadhog both has less than 8 deaths and they’re death ball heroes.
Pick rates means nothing… plus the difference between Reinhardt and Winston now is only 2% in pick rates. Both can be used. But in win rates, all tanks has 50~53% win rates. Try another argument. I just want Reinhardt to have equal chance of survivability as other tanks since deaths per game has nothing to do with metas and such.
Rein and Zarya form an incredibly effective duo as Zarya can bubble Rein and give him some temporary CC resistance.
Rein and Orisa I personally find effective too. Double barrier stacking is generally frowned upon but I’ve made it work before. It gives Rein protection and cover to recharge his shield and while he puts his shield up, Orisa has time to reset hers.
Rein definitely doesn’t need FLAT cc immunity or even resistance but what he could use is passive knockback resistance since he’s actually a heavy metal hulk. It makes no sense that he can be booped around as much as he gets flung.
Are you actually trying to claim that buffing Reinhardt to die less, without any other change in his kit, would not affect his place in the meta?
There is no circumstance whatsoever where buffing the second-most popular hero in the game, aside from bugfixes, is anything short of absurd.
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