I imagine the only stats that influenced Genji’s buffs were OWL related. I doubt they listen to the forums.
The data being objective does not mean they are a good measurement of how strong a hero is.
They objectively display what heroes people with public profiles like to pick, but why people pick a hero is still very subjective, and can be based on people just thinking a hero is fun, or because they think the hero is strong.
But your gut feeling is?
We dont have objective data, as long as blizzard doesnt release official statistics, we wont have objective data.
For example, overbuff has inflated stats on GM and Masters, and based on roles they have inflated stats on DPS over supp and tank
If Blade Bot is the term to describe old Genji, clearly he needed to be buffed in his base kit to be more useful.
Granted, I would like to see changes to Dragon Blade and Deflect, mainly Deflect.
As for Symm and Sombra, the thing is with those heroes, I find I don’t have try nearly as hard as I do with Genji or Ashe to be useful. I think there’s a clear difference here in what feels ok to play as and against.
But, I don’t think the way they’ve chosen to balance Symm or Sombra is the right way either. Make them rewarding but up the risk and skill needed to do so, or revamp them both.
Symmetra for example I’d love to see her be fully engrossed in the builder role, with the ability to create different machines with different uses. Like a Generator for health, the good old Teleporter, the turrets and health packs that cost her resource as well but are quickly deployed. I would gladly give her damage orbs for all of that. Sombra…idk, honestly the Spy was just a better stealth class, period.
In Genjis case, we do have objective data. This comes directly from the devs, filtered out all mirror matches.
Sombra is basically an EMP bot to this day, yet you see people still asking for more nerfs to regular hack.
Because hack isn’t terribly fun to fight against, though the only nerf I’d ever want to see is if I kill the Sombra that hacked me, it should remove the effect. That’s it.
Which again, comes back to my initial argument. Feelings and entitlement over actual balance.
The game is impossible to balance just because…regardless of subjective likes and dislikes
Remove the player base and it would still be impossible to balance
This. People need to understand that their personal opinions about the health of the game or the skillfulness of the game are completely irrelevant to balance discussion
The problem is that many people arent interested in balance. They are interested in favoritism for their main hero and heroes they perceive to be skillful and fun to play against.
Heroes they dont like ending up balanced feels unfair to them.
But as players we really don’t have much else to go on, at the end of the day everyone here is playing a different game. Some play casually, some play comp all the time. Some play in Bronze to Silver, Gold to Plat, etc
Only thing I can say is this, looking at the data alone isn’t going to tell us much. Being in Data Research for Real Estate and Apartments for 5 years will teach you the data just is what it is, it doesn’t tell you the why or how, you gotta figure that out on your own. When a heroes win rates and pick rates are good, I’d consider that hero working as intended, look at the other Supports and the Tanks that are actually doing well to see that. When a hero is considered to be high skill and scales up the better you are, again, working as intended.
In my experience, it feels like Genji and Ashe are the only damage heroes that actually do their job well. Maybe they’re a bit too forgiving, but they’re not overspecialized niche heroes like the rest of the damage role.
The data is what it is, but you need to be able to read it correctly. We can agree on this. But people in this community switch their standarts on how they read stats on a whim based on their own feelings. They arent consistent. Hero A and hero B can have the exact same stats also for the same reason, but you get a different judgement from the same player on both heroes dependend on whether he likes the hero or not. The “cool” hero doing good is fine, while the “unfun” hero doing good is not.
Fair enough, but that’s honestly how this community rolls, Ashe could be actually balanced for all intents and purposes, and people would still complain even though she’s fun to play as or against.
Because people just don’t like dying or losing, so they blame the hero that in their mind causes it the most.
I don’t die often to Zarya or Moira, and I don’t lose because of them, but still don’t enjoy dealing with them often because of one key mechanic. Heck for a long time that’s why I didn’t like Genji, I hate Deflect and how it works. I imagine everyone has those kind of experiences, and it’s the sort of stuff that makes playing the game feel more like a chore than a hobby.
But then we’re just going in circles, I think it’s important that we ask how should things be working? And is there a better way we could do x or y? For example, could Deflect be changed in a way where it’s rewarding for Genji, but fair for the person fighting it? Could we make it so Genji can use Deflect in short bursts instead, and more frequently, vs the long 2 second duration where Genji is entirely in control while it’s in play?
That stuff scales up pretty well, since people who aren’t good with Genji will probably mess up Deflect often, and therefore be easier to pick off, while skilled Genjis will get a slight buff, but at the same time, their mistakes will be easier and more rewarding to punish at a high level. So it provides a better feedback to the player that they’re making the right call.
It’s those kind of changes that interest me, simply increasing or reducing raw numbers like damage and clip size don’t unless it serves an actual purpose.
Thats now more of a design discussion rather than a balance discussion. You dont like the interaction with some game mechanics on a fundamental basis regardless of its balance state. Youre basically demanding reworks. I’m only arguing for balance.
I see your logic, but maybe he was legit weak and they just overbuffed him
He was perceived to be weak, but he wasnt actually weak. Which is why after they buffed him he is OP, because he actually was doing fine before.
a hero in overwatch is considered in a good state when they have around 50% winrate with a stable pickrate in this game
Alright, rereading the op if I am not mistaken, your view of balance seems to be based on raw data. A hero’s average performance shouldn’t be too far off the scale compared to everyone else, or too low.
If you could, give me an example of what overpowered, underpowered, and what the average should be for your view of balance.
Viability of course is a relative term. The game is balanced when the the total difference in stats between the strongest heroes is very close to the worst performing heroes. For instance, Genjis current stats would be fine if the worst comparable dps would be only slightly below that.