People don't understand the problems with 5v5

[TREB-21513]

@Zergotto-2668

if tou can’t even understand the gist of it how can you pretend to understand more advanced nuances?

I understand the game.

I don’t understand what you mean because you use such vague language.

@Zergotto-2668

Creating space isnt some wishy washy subjective thing, it means making sure your team can act in a certain way within a certain space.

This is such a blatant contradiction.

Act a “certain way”? Wow, could say that about anything.

@Zergotto-2668

Main tanks are particularly specialized in this role.

What role? Role of acting in a “certain way”?

None of what you’re saying means anything.

@Zergotto-2668

You are treating “create space” as if it’s supposed to be an exclusive trait, by your logic soldier is a healer and zen is a dps.

I haven’t given you my logic, I’ve asked for YOUR logic.

@Zergotto-2668

solo tank pre role queue meant 6v6 are you dense?

If that’s what you meant then you’re referencing something completely irrelevant.

Just because you didn’t queue together doesn’t mean the other tank on your team doesn’t exist!

That is what 1-2-2 is, that is where there is no other tank on your team nor 2 tanks on the enemy team.

@Zergotto-2668

And 122 doesnt benefit all tank players

So you claim without a single reason.

I’ve given a reason you ignored.

@Zergotto-2668

considering half of those are going to be reworked.

Reworked to their benefit.

@Zergotto-2668

i’m sorry, but if you don’t even know what peel means

I never said I don’t know what peel means.

And you know it.

That’s precisely why you used such a smear against me.

@Zergotto-2668

why are you here telling tank mains how to feel about tank balance?

I’m asking you to explain yourself.

Something you are so far incapable of doing.

@Zergotto-2668

now you can either think about what i said or you can remain stuck examining the finger.

No you can admit you don’t understand what you’re talking about, you can only comprehend this in the broadest simplified terms.

You’re completely incapable of getting down to any specific facts.

@Zergotto-2668

it’s funny cause blizzard themselves said solo tank was too stressful and put a lot of pressure on the lone tank.

Prove it.

Prove they said that.

@Zergotto-2668

oh christ almighty IT’S AN EXAMPLE
APPLY CRITICAL THINKING DON’T WASTE TIME NITPICKING IT

You’re so desperate to attack me you don’t care what you say is a complete non-sequitur.

@Zergotto-2668

you think the lone tank won’t be pressured by the team to play meta?

So you’re not even saying they aren’t idiots, they ARE idiots but we should just let our lives be run by the capricious demands of idiots?

No, screw em.

@Zergotto-2668

you think this is a game where you can usually afford not to go meta?

Absolutely.

Unless “the meta” means something other than “heroes that are most popular”.

@Zergotto-2668

unless they rework all tank to homogenize them

Totally spurious conjecture.

You can’t support a claim by endlessly piling on more unknowns.

@Zergotto-2668

It’s a morton fork.

That is NOT Morton’s Fork.

That’s just 2 outcomes (you have no control over) that you don’t want.

Morton’s Fork is the use of contradictory reasoning to justify a single course of action. It a “heads I win, tails you lose” reasoning.

My saying all outcomes justify your outrage that is you perpetrating the Morton’s Fork fallacy. You do not permit any possible outcome where you will be satisfied with 1-2-2.

[Zergotto-2668]

@Pharazon-2864

sigh This is why they are changing tanks around to be … BRAWLERS. Not all purpose, not “tank”, brawlers.

yes, so appearently my entire role will be reworked into something else but i should shut up because i don’t know what it’ll look like.
Have you not picked up that me and other people don’t really want their entire role reworked into brawlers?

@TREB-21513

Reworked to their benefit.

so, you don’t know what “making space” means, but you think you know what will benefit tanks. Huh.

[Pharazon-2864]

@Zergotto-2668

yes, so appearently my entire role will be reworked into something else but i should shut up because i don’t know what it’ll look like.
Have you not picked up that me and other people don’t really want their entire role reworked into brawlers?

I’m fully aware that you don’t want them into brawlers. Why I don’t know, you’ve failed to specify your disposition other than “I don’t want to”.

I’m also fully aware that a lot of players don’t want to play tank rolls as it is in OW1, mostly because they have no impact unless they have a strong team (and especially strong support) in their back. So changes has to be done to make the roll more enticing.

[Zergotto-2668]

I like tanks the way they are. Especially i enjoy zarya a lot. Changing her would make me drop the role.
it’s like going from sym 2.0 to sym 3.0, it’s not a matter of what’s better or healthier, people that liked 2.0 playstyle got the short end of the stick. Imagine that but role wise. Now imagine people telling you to shut up cause you don’t know what it’ll be like.

And i have many other problems. Solo tanking is going to put a lot of pressure on the lone tank, that’s not something any balance can change, not in a game with overwatch systems. You can rework those system, but at this point it begs the question “why is it an update and not another game?”

I just don’t see the worth in changing the game so radically instead of trying to fix it with 6v6. Hell, i actually was fine with the proposed rein changes they showed at blizzcon, but i’m not down with 5v5, it’s just not going to be worth the candle for most tank mains. Now, will it be worth it for blizzard? Most likely, tank mains are pretty much expendable to them, you can see it in how bad the balance has been.

Frankly, i just wish they removed sigma’s shield. We wouldn’t be having this discussion. Well, that and Brig. God what that monster did to the game was a sight to behold

[TREB-21513]

@Zergotto-2668

so, you don’t know what “making space” means,

You don’t even know what it means!

Not what it means beyond a vague wishy-washy stock platitude which is useless.

But I am not the one using and depending on such terms.

You are.

This “making space” is just a handwave, it’s a gross oversimplification of far more complex interactions than you are willing/able to articulate, but you NEED to articulate it in detail for there to be any real discussion. It condenses radically different hero interactions into a vague generalisation that covers such a broad spectrum it could mean two totally contradictory things.

If something can mean two contradictory things, it effectively means nothing.

Instead you bluster that people are somehow magically forced away from Rein’s barrier when being farther away from the barrier doesn’t make it any less of a barrier. As if getting closer doesn’t have obvious benefits with dealing with Rein’s barrier. Because you’re working BACKWARDS from an oversimplification of a game with very complex interactions.

[Dutch-11691]

@Zergotto-2668

But the problem is that one eay or another ALL tanks will be reworked and off tanks especially WILL lose their identity.

Yeah am I the only one that’s like, not really jazzed about SO MANY aspects of the game changing at once?

When I have a problem with something and I don’t know how to solve it, I change one thing at a time. Not 20 things. If I change 20 things and then try it again, I have no idea what worked to solve it actually.

They’re changing not only how many players we have in each match, which is a HUGE change, but also changing their passive buffs, homogonizing the groups with these passive buffs, and also making major changes to how the characters play in game.

When they pitched us OW2 it was a graphical upgrade with some AI missions, maybe a talent tree within those AI missions, but everyone acted like if you didn’t like it you could just stick with OW1. Now it’s going to completely upend OW1 and change it in a super major way?

I have even more reasons to be annoyed at OW2 than ever before. It’s going to cannibalize what little left I enjoyed in the game and turn it into… IDK, Brawlerwatch.

I am also sick to DEATH of learning and relearning characters; one week this combo works and the next it doesn’t. One week you can do this and the next you can’t, because now you have less ammo, or your mines just don’t blow up that way anymore, or whatever.

How am I supposed to improve at a game that is constantly changing every 2 weeks?

[TREB-21513]

@Zergotto-2668

I like tanks the way they are.

You’ll like them more.

They will be strong enough to work without needing a tank ally.

@Zergotto-2668

it’s like going from sym 2.0 to sym 3.0

No it’s not, it’s almost a direct upgrade.

They’re not just replacing abilities with brand new abilities.

@Zergotto-2668

Now imagine people telling you to shut up cause you don’t know what it’ll be like.

Imagine being accused of telling people to shut up when you did the exact opposite, you demanded they say more, give more of an explanation.

@Zergotto-2668

Solo tanking is going to put a lot of pressure on the lone tank, that’s not something any balance can change

Yet it can.

@Zergotto-2668

but at this point it begs the question “why is it an update and not another game?”

IT.

IS.

ANOTHER.

GAME.

It’s called “Overwatch 2”

The clue is in the title.

@Zergotto-2668

I just don’t see the worth in changing the game so radically instead of trying to fix it with 6v6.

It’s unfixable.

It will be forever in a broken state where tanks cannot be made powerful enough to be effective by themselves as they’d then be too powerful when used together.

A fundamental aspect of such tanks is they can apply their defensive abilities to other heroes and when applied to another hero with high defences of a tank this has a positive feedback effect.

[Hartwig-2738]

@Zergotto-2668

up until double barrier meta was decided by healer synergies.

No, the meta was almost always decided by tanks and tanks stacking. You are just making things up.

@Zergotto-2668

This mentality that tanks are the only problem in ow right now is a toxic idea brought forward by idiots who don’t understand tanking and thinks barrier were a problem before sigma. Remove sigma’s shield and suddenly all the “toxic” tank synergies are gone.

Noone said tanks themselves are the only problem in OW, you said it first. It’s the demand for 2 tanks per 6 players.
Remove Sigma’s shield and you ruin 1 character and stop one meta, only to face something like that again when a new tank arrives. Rein+Zarya, Hog+Orisa, Winston+D.Va were (and some still are) such good they warped the whole meta around them and remove d opportunities for other tanks to be played.

@Zergotto-2668

And the pressure on the lone tank isnt just about facing 6 or 5 players, you ignore everything else about the part of carrying an entire role alone.

“Carrying an entire role” would be half as easy not dealing with 100 charge Zarya and without flanking Hog “helping” me.

@Zergotto-2668

Also you think people will accept half the role being reworked cause of “more choice”.

Not half the role, but the role. And even if some people actually enjoy tanking in 2-2-2 (which is unlikely judging by the sheer amount of complaining from tank players here), they are a small minority. Sure some of them will quit, but it will be better for the game and the playerbase overall.

@Zergotto-2668

Honestly i’m tired of arguing with people who have no clue what tanking means and how no matter how you slice it at least half the tank playerbase gets shafted cause blizzaed can’t be asked to do their job

Or maybe it’s you are one of the such people? What makes you think you understand it better? And that you understand Blizzard’s job better than they are.

The Dunning-Krueger effect in action.

[Zergotto-2668]

@TREB-21513

It’s called “Overwatch 2”

how clueless are you that you don’t know overwatch 2 will replace overwatch 1?
I’m honestly done with you, you rage post more than me and that’s saying something. There’s no point in explaining it to you, if you can’t understand a simple concept such as “main tanks create space and off tanks assist them while also protecting the backline” there’s no hope you’d understand what makes Hammond a main tank and Sigma an off tank.

But i’ll actually humor you one last time, if you can’t figure this out after this it’s on you.
Being a main tank is kinda like being a director. You’re tasked with allowing your team the space to make plays. While rein advances and zones people out with his hammer, winston jumps on the enemy, places a bubble so his team can also jump and take advantage of said bubble to dive.
Hammond is unique in that he does so by displacing the enemy team and being a tough target to take down, requiring the enemy team to focus on him instead of his team.
An off tank instead assists the main tank with bursts of protection. Zarya places a bubble on a rein, allowing him to swing his hammer and firestrike. Dva places her matrix on winston to allow him to survive longer. While they do this they also have good peel to protect the backline from flanks.
Main Tanks don’t have very good peel usually, not as good as ots anyway.

So, main tanks create space, off tanks enforce it and assist. It’s neither complex, nor vague, but it definetely it’s a step above “shoot” and “heal” in terms of having to figure out what it means.

@Hartwig-2738

No, the meta was almost always decided by tanks and tanks stacking. You are just making things up.

you’re free to break down how the meta worked, but only if you actually played through them. I remember beyblade, that wasn’t a tank meta.

@Hartwig-2738

Sure some of them will quit, but it will be better for the game and the playerbase overall.

ah, yes “shut up you are a minority, you are expendable”. Thanks, nice to know you respect tank players.

@Hartwig-2738

Or maybe it’s you are one of the such people?

i’ve been playing tanks at diamond-master for 4 years. I’ve talked with pros, discussed tactics with my country’s pro team and overall . I definetely know more about tanking than dps mains who don’t even know what making space means

[dag-12162]

@Zergotto-2668

@dag-12162

Nobody plays Tank. Nobody enjoys Tank. So yeah, it’s getting changed.

speak for yourself

Getting Diamond Tanks in GM+ games speaks for itself.

[LuckyTiger-1120647]

@dag-12162

Getting Diamond Tanks in GM+ games speaks for itself.

Some people dont want to acknowledge that there is a big problem now. I guess they just like it, but its not working well for the game overall

[TREB-21513]

@Zergotto-2668

I’m honestly done with you, you rage post more than me and that’s saying something.

Non stop recriminations.

@Zergotto-2668

There’s no point in explaining it to you, if you can’t understand a simple concept such as “main tanks create space and off tanks assist them while also protecting the backline”

The simplicity is precisely the problem.

It’s like trying to explain powered flight by something as inane as “fuel goes in plane goes up, how can you not understand”

Stop being too simplistic! You need to actually do into appropriate detail that can make real distinctions.

@Zergotto-2668

But i’ll actually humor you one last time, if you can’t figure this out after this it’s on you.

No it isn’t.

You take zero responsibility for your half baked diatribes being rambling nonsense.

@Zergotto-2668

Being a main tank is kinda like being a director.

Immediately off to a terrible start.

@Zergotto-2668

You’re tasked with allowing your team the space to make plays.

You refuse to say what making space means because you don’t actually understand, you’ve just heard the platitude thousands of times and are repeating it.

@Zergotto-2668

While rein advances and zones people out with his hammer, winston jumps on the enemy, places a bubble so his team can also jump and take advantage of said bubble to dive.

You’ve already forgotten this is supposed to be an analogy of being a director on a film.

@Zergotto-2668

An off tank instead assists the main tank with bursts of protection.

Oh.

My.

God.

Purely by accident you seem to have stumbled into saying something concrete and verifiable!

So the job of an off tank is to increase the defensive capabilities of a tank ally who puts itself into harms way?

Why did it take 90 comments in this thread to say that!

Okay, with that in mind:

good riddance

This is a terrible gameplay mechanic that I will be glad to see gone with 1-2-2, tanks being made suddenly much MUCH more resistant because another tank pours defensive abilities into them is unbalancing.

If another tank was a logical impossibility them you could simply buff that 1 tank to be consistently good enough in defensive abilities to not need an off tank.

@Zergotto-2668

While they do this they also have good peel to protect the backline from flanks.

Non-tanks can self-peel and peel for other non-tanks.

@Zergotto-2668

you’re free to break down how the meta worked, but only if you actually played through them.

No, you don’t get to say 1 bean + 1 bean = 3 beans because you’re holding the beans in your hand.

Reality exists.

Reality does not only exist only for those who directly participated in it.

@Zergotto-2668

I remember beyblade, that wasn’t a tank meta.

It wasn’t even a meta.

It was an ult combo.

It’s like saying nanoblade is a meta.

@Zergotto-2668

ah, yes “shut up you are a minority, you are expendable”. Thanks, nice to know you respect tank players.

You don’t care about all the tankers who quit because they’re fed up of the status quo and would come back to the game because they no longer depend on having an off-tank buff them.

@LuckyTiger-1120647

Some people dont want to acknowledge that there is a big problem now.

They want to keep the status quo which is where only one is really able to be a tank and another tank just pours all their defensive resources into that one tank.

Which is not viable, the game has to be balanced around a binary state where that may or may not be done. Either way the game is balance will make one overpowered or the other underpowered.

@Zergotto-2668

I definetely know more about tanking than dps mains who don’t even know what making space means

If you know what it means then say what it means.

I want to know what YOU think it means.

Because I need to ask EVERYONE this as so many people think it means different contradictory things.

You’re not participating in the discussion which is far more than dropping vague terms and bragging about how superior you are.

[Annimositty-1844]

@Zergotto-2668

But the problem is that one eay or another ALL tanks will be reworked and off tanks especially WILL lose their identity

Yeah people don’t seem to understand this. It’s possible they may be improved but it’s hard to have faith in Blizz after ruining and gutting so many tanks.

Also, losing the teamwork you have with another tank player is going to be missed. Sure some tank partners suck or you two just don’t click synergy wise but a lot of times it’s great coordinating and having a pal who has you back.

Dps players can’t and don’t really do this except for the occasional saves. And having a support pump you full of HP 24/7 is nice but it’s not exactly teamwork. More like they are keeping you supported from a distance. (god Lucio’s being a exception)

@Zergotto-2668

Not only that, now all tank players will be expected to play EVERY tank, lest their sr drop when one of their mains isnt the meta tank. Going from mt to ot isn’t as easy as people claim it is, it"s almost a completely different role.

This is my main concern. Is the added toxic behavior tank players will 100% get for not playing the tank that is meta or team wants.

I can play every tank but I avoid jumping around too much because spreading yourself thin isn’t great for my own fun and skill level. The times I have broken new SR personal best was when I was essentially 1 tricking a tank. Orisa, WB, ext.

Plus my hate for Rein went from Love, Fun, he’s ok, to dislike, and finally mega loath. I hate him so much and gotten so bad with him that my winrate with him is 25%. I can’t and wont do it. I will get a lot of hate for it if I remain a tank player.

[Apocus-1584]

I hate to be the one to say it but I honestly don’t care that they eliminated a pro player job. It doesn’t effect me playing or enjoying the game in any way. As a matter of fact I would like the game or any game even less if it only catered to pro teams and made changes based on how it effected them. I feel that sucks the fun out of it.
That aside speculating on something that you have no experience with is useless. Wait for something playable, play it, then come here and give your opinion. There is no validity to speculation.

[ValisBetter-1616]

@Zergotto-2668

From a tank perspective 122 is the worst think that could happen for tank players.

so like 3% of the community?

@Zergotto-2668

But the problem is that one eay or another ALL tanks will be reworked and off tanks especially WILL lose their identity

this has already been shown to be untrue with just minor tweaks they showed us.

@Zergotto-2668

She will be deeply reworked for 122 or be doomed to be a throw pick.

Thats crazy, because a bunch of gm streamers and pros got together on a workshop mode made to be 5v5 with the changes they made to tanks, and Zarya was the dominant tank absolutely slapping most other tanks.

@Zergotto-2668

Rein will still be a main tank at its core with an 800 shield hps and two firestrikes.

i can see you havent done any research. Rien has 1600 shield health in 5v5

@Zergotto-2668

And it’s not just that, but 122 will bring less creativity to future tanks.

quite the opposite. they no longer have to balance for tank combos so they can go crazy with tank abilities and ideas.

@Zergotto-2668

Then there’s the fact that the one tank will most likely put so much pressure on tank players

Tanks already have pressure. Tanks play bad and you lose. removing a tank will allow other players to have more impact and remove pressure from tanks because they arent the only ones that can make plays.

@Zergotto-2668

These things will be true regardless of what 122 will look like,

concidering 2 things are already provably wrong im gonna say no.

[MikeUchiha-11562]

It’s a waste of energy to post this.

I’ve seen it happen since I started playing Blizzard games.

** Step 1 - Devs propose a stupid change that makes the game dumber / simpler for them to balance.

Step 2 - Players who see this speak out against it.

Step 3 - Players who don’t understand say to wait and see, it’s not that bad, you’re being dramatic, etc.

Step 4 - The change drops and it actually is that bad and as a result players leave the game.

Step 5 - repeat. **

It’s unfortunate but there’s nothing you can do. This change is going to go through like 2-2-2 did and much like 2-2-2, it’s going to cause people to leave and the game will be even more stagnant.

[Zergotto-2668]

i have no clue how much details do you want me to add at this point.
but i still find it amusing that despite not onowing what tanks do and finding copipus explanations not to your liking, you are STILL telling me what i should like and not like.

I’m done with you, go pester someone else

[Profiteroles-11953]

@Zergotto-2668

thanks for the comprehensive response, but then i should ask if you know that zarya, dva and hog will most likely be reworked into something completely different. Because solo tank they ain’t

I thought you were gonna do the same as you asked of me…

@Profiteroles-11953

Okay your turn.

No trendy nonsense, my fav youtuber said “I lIkE mAkInG sPace”, but don’t know what tanking actually is bull-heck either.

I am also pretty sure, not 100%, that the devs are working to make them all in the middle of the tank sub-sets aka brawlers, so i would expect slight-mederate changes to all tanks.

and that is fine, you don’t need shields to tank and you don’t need broken raid bosses to tank.

EDIT: i gotta go shopping may be a couple hours till i can reply

[Zergotto-2668]

if you say that you havent followed my discussion tho

[AeLynn-11513]

@Zergotto-2668

But the problem is that one eay or another ALL tanks will be reworked and off tanks especially WILL lose their identity. That’s not something that’s up to speculation, off tanking requires an mt to be such.
Zarya, even with her 132 changes plain doesnt work as a solo tank. Zarya is one of the best designed heroes in the game and one of the more rewarding to play well (i can already hear zarya haters getting their pants twisted).

You’re missing something major here.
It’s not just the Tanks that are getting reworked for Overwatch 2 PvP.

We’ve confirmation that they’re trying to rework Sombra, have already reworked Bastion entirely, and are looking to rework Symmetra again.

We’ve also seen a minor rework of Mei, where she lost ALL freeze capability - even her ultimate. Instead, she does significantly more damage. So now Mei is useless, because if you want sustained damage why would you pick a hero who can’t headshot and only has a short range? Pick Soldier and move on. Need her sniping potential? Go Widow or Hanzo.

Speaking of Widowmaker and Hanzo, during the Livestream the Devs said they were trying to rebalance all the snipers (burst damage), and all the CC-focused DPS. Even considering moving Mei to Tank.

@Zergotto-2668

And even then, you are asking people to play at least 8 different heroes at a similar sr, cause the alternative is simply not play when your pool isnt meta. Right now i can play at diamond rein, orisa, ball and winston, all the main tanks (yes, hammond is main, sigma is off, barriers arent what makes a main tank main). That give me a big enough pool to adapt to any meta. Say we have a hog meta in 122. I’ll be screwed cause i plain don’t like playing hog.

This is probably what gets to me the most. I’m a Main Tank specialist.
Throw me anywhere in ladder short of 4k and I’ll climb right back up using Reinhardt, Orisa, Winston or Zarya.
But put me on Roadhog? D.Va? I’ll struggle to do much at all. I know how the heroes work, I simply don’t have the mechanics for them - and I never will because it’s so extremely different to how the Tanks I play function.

I need a higher sensitivity for Reinhardt and Winston and Zarya to be able to flick around (blocking Shatter combos, leaping to high-ground I wasn’t looking at, doing a 180 to bubble someone. But Orisa, Ball, Sigma, Hog? Probably want a lower sensitivity so I can have consistency.

@Zergotto-2668

These things will be true regardless of what 122 will look like, so quit it with this “wait and try it officially”

T H I S.