[OW2] Reddit, might have solved Mercy and Sojourn

But you haven’t yet substantiated your claim that an attack speed boost would be an objectively bad idea. In your first post your evidence was Soldier’s recoil and attack speed being useless for heroes like Cole and Hanzo. As I pointed out, the first point is a trivial edge case that can be easily resolved and the second is pretty flagrant over-exaggeration.

What have you got now?

Yup, we take away a synergy that we know for sure we don’t like (one-shot damage breakpoints), and which only matters at extremely high levels of play. But it naturally increases a synergy that she already has, which will affect all levels of play! See how much easier that is to balance now that it affects everybody, and how conveniently it avoids being a major nerf? You seem to get the idea. If not, I talked more about it in this response:

And you’re right, let’s not talk about the console meta, because that would be silly when we know full well we shouldn’t balance the game around the shrinking platform instead of the platform that will forever be the home of competition at the highest level.

I like this point, it’s your best one. But when I compare the cost of supports having to heal, which they’re pretty good at, to the benefits of having burst characters, I really struggle to see the cost even compare to the benefits in terms of scale.

Having to undo a crap-ton of damage while your teammate hides behind cover is nothing new. We already have extremely high-damage sustain heroes in the game like Bastion. It’s not always the most fun thing, but it serves a purpose: to create pressure. Once you’ve turned the corner into a Bastion once, you don’t intend to do it again. At best it costs you time and a humiliating heal-up, at worst it kills you and loses ground. So at the point the game becomes not one of walking into Bastion and undoing the damage repeatedly, but one of playing around the Bastion’s pressure. Baiting out his CD, taking map control, etc.

This is the same benefit that extends to the burst heroes: they change the game dynamic in some way and make it more interesting. Reaper is a great example. You don’t just out-heal his two-tap or run away, you hunt him down and make sure he can’t get close. You play around his CDs and positioning. Ashe has this potential. A sniping Ashe can force you to play around her sightlines. Without the one shot of Widow she can safely have more mobility and sustain, keeping the counterplay from being a simple matter of diving and harassing her. Instead you have to actually respect her sight lines and play around them with flanks and shields, and you have a little leeway for mistakes compared to Widow.

I’ve got nothing for Sojourn though, she’s just busted. Absolute insanity for a kit. I hope they don’t keep Sojourn as a burst character but restore Ashe to her former glory.

You already tried this one. It’s very true, I agree completely… but you’re bringing it to the wrong conversation. Mercy is a very obvious exception. Is it not clear when she is already the most pacifist support but has always enjoyed a high pick rate at all elos except the absolute top? Mercy is the way she is for a reason and it would be really dumb to change that. I happily welcome all new supports with crazy damage and debuff potential with open arms.

IDK… We can discuss if pharmacy will be a problem then.

And you do realize, that we said here 65hps on tanks only, right? Phara is not a tank AFAIK.

As I stated here, it is nothing unusual, since they want to sell skins for her ATM…

No, you are mistaken… According to Overbuff mercy has 2nd most pickrate across all ranks at 20.95% in last six months… And this is OW1 data, so no busted sojourn… Better is onle Ana as she sits at 37.21%

Tell me who was so busted in OW1 that she had to be pick to pocket them that she has 2nd most pick rate? Hmmm?

Mercy IS popular character, mostly because it is fun to enable others for people who already do this in other games…

Or simply, fly away laughing at them…

Or have one or two ready in mind at all times, so she does not need to ‘search’ for her escape options…

Consider this. My hanzo keeps body shooting enemy. He gets 125 dmg towards his ult charge each hit… Then targets are finished off by soldier. Now I put my blue beam on my hanzo, so now he deals 162 dmg, 30% more ult charge for him and targets are finished by soldier still…

So my Hanzo generates more dragons than enemy Hanzo…

But I guess one extra dragon is ‘bearly any value’ to my team…

Then why we don see top500 Mercy mains going in to full battle Mercy mode with her, if it is such a better value for her team? Almost like if blue beam has more value than glock 99% of the time, hmmm :thinking:

Well kind of true… But it was because she was moved from one play style to other, after downfall of Moth… People enjoyed Healing, they do not enjoy pocketing, so they did quit… Simple…

Well, they need to rework pharah at this point… It is not even funny anymore how she is reliant on mercy pocket to be viable, and without her she is just meeh…

Not incompetent… I am 99% sure it was deliberate decision, so people will main her and as a result buy a skin…

But I agree that it is terrible design choice, but we get what we get…

What? Why do things like that always come out of the blue. It has nothing to do with the topic.

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In exchange for our historic ability and our main way to help the team offensively, I demand 300hp/s heal. If the only thing we’ll do is healing, make it so our left clic is a literal “you can’t die”.

If they do this then yes, they can remove rez and boost.

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What, his “Baby’s First Recoil” recoil?

Just

nerf

sojourn

already

PLEASE

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Mercy’s major problem is not Damage Boost, at all, her problem consists of she is only healing or damaging at one time, if you’re damaging, you lose your supportive abilities besides Resurrect, if you’re healing, you are not contributing any extra damage to the other team, that’s why she’s mediocre, other supports simply do better and can multitask.

Also I’d say another problem with Mercy is that she is heavily reliant on how her target is playing, Damage Boost is only as good as the person who has it, and that change would not fix that in the slightest.

Indeed, it would very annoying

Would probably feel like this:

Sorry, not gonna happen… They still need to sell her skins

*remove railgun’s ability to crit completely

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im not going to do the numbers, but i argue that would actually make her more problematic and actually op.

she would become the most op thing in ow history with that.

because with damage boost there are actually a limited number of heros that benefit from it, with attack speed boost a whole lot of heros suddenly become extremely powerful surpassing certain breakpoints.
imagine dive lucios with 30% more attack speed, he would absolutely flatline snipers even more than dive tanks do.
imagine sigmas primary fire, everything but tanks would be melted.
id argue that this would turn tracer into a tank counter.

That’s the thing, I’m not talking about reworking Pharah. Just a flat nerf.

Partially because they don’t want to spend time on it. Partially because it would conflict with getting additional Support players.

I think GreyFalcon is basing his argument on that one dev saying Mercy’s 3rd pickrate and 3nd winrate, which itself is based on Sojourn being in her current state.

So we should rewrite it as : assuming we do nothing to Sojourn, Hog and Kiriko, buffing Mercy wouldn’t be healthy to the game, and to buff Mercy without doing anything to the other three we need to first nerf her. There is an argument to say that it would make devs’ lives easier if this variable wasn’t one they have to work around, but that’s an entirely different debate.

Also :

You are aware of the fact that Mercy is not the only support, right ? If the issue is, as some put it, “people want to pew pew”, we should be asking ourselves how to buff Baptiste, Lucio or Ana, the ones who do pew pew. If the issue is, as other puts it, in the current meta flank is too strong, we should be asking ourselves how to nerf flankers or how to make every support more survivable. If the issue is, I don’t know, we need our second mini-shield back, let’s buff the heck out of Brigitte.

I don’t think it makes sense to on one hand see “Mercy is making Sojourn even more broken” and on the other “players don’t want to play Mercy, Moira, Baptiste, Brigitte, Zen, Kiriko, Ana nor Lucio” and think we have to come up with a single solution to both issue at once. Mercy isn’t n°1 pick, even with Sojourn being in her current state. And for that reason, I don’t think the argument of support queue is a major one when we’re talking about blue beam, because I don’t think the reason why people aren’t playing support is Mercy having a damage boost not do I think making it a speed boost would make tank and DPS players magically switch to playing support just to be a OTP Mercy with the risk of having to play some other character they really don’t want to play when they’re unlucky enough to be teamed with another OTP Mercy.

If the crazy movement, rez, pacifist playstyle isn’t their thing, it won’t be their thing with a speed boost blue beam, if anything by “unlocking” DPS like Ash and buffing them you’ll paint a big “look, X character has changed, it’s time to play it !” picture that would lock them even harder into not playing support.

If people can write this many posts on one mechanic change, on one hero.

Would be kinda messy to talk about the overall goal of “Buff all Supports”

Then maybe it would require it’s own topic instead of talking about it AND about reworking Mercy all at once ?

Tbh, I’ve kinda given up on the “rework” approach last night. They aren’t going to have the time, and a mix of nerfs+buffs gets less Support players.

They are probably going to need to go into “Buff only mode” for the entire Support role. Then after a few weeks, start scaling that back after even Support mains can agree that was too much.

Since really, they are going to need at least 50% more Support players in the next 2 months, if not 100% more.

Oh god please no more hog ult jumpscares

Can someone finally put a source on all these looming doom claims? I don’t see any changes in queue times, percentage of supports in playerbase seems to be the same. Where the hell do people find base for this “we need to buff supports to please them or they will leave” panic?

Mostly just speculation by myself, the guy who has probably spent more time on Role Queue issues than the entire rest of the community combined.

And RobotWizard, who has actually designed multiple matchmaker algorithms that were sold to other gaming companies.

Here’s an example of the problem we got for matchmaking.

For perfectly ideal matchmaking quality and matchmaking speed. You’d want:

  • 20% Tanks, 40% DPS, 40% Supports.
  • i.e. 1/5, 2/5, 2/5
  • i.e. 1-2-2

The further it gets away from that ideal, the worse either matchmaking quality or matchmaking speed gets. And it would appear that the devs are focusing on matchmaking speed, instead of matchmaking quality. To compensate for a lack of Support players.

Let’s say the season 1 ratio of Tank-DPS-Support was

  • 30%, 50% 20%
  • i.e. 1.5x, 1.5x, 0.5x compared to the ideal

Then what happens if you make it

  • 40%, 45%, 15%
  • i.e. 2.0x, 1.125x, 0.375x compared to the ideal

So moving from a Tank:Support ratio of: 1.5x vs 0.5x, which makes a 3x gap for matchmaking
And then next patch: 2.0x vs 0.375x, which makes a 5.33x gap for matchmaking.

Almost twice as bad.

Which means the matchmaker will be almost twice as bad pretty soon, in either matchmaker speed or matchmaker quality, probably a mix of both.

this is going to make symettra when she is at full charge op as heck, same thing with zarya at high charge.