I think how I worded things caused a slight misunderstanding, I wasn’t trying to be negative, and wholeheartedly agree that those points are the biggest issues of the mode.
I would believe how many times you solo supported, I’ve been there myself as I seen it as the win condition, similar to playing a tank. Like you said, the biggest issue is the people unwilling to swap to what’s needed.
I like the idea of both roles, but almost exclusively play role queue because the vc is more pleasant and people are less stressed.
The reason I like open queue is sometimes I want to solo heal or tank for a fast paced dps centric composition. I also like in a stack being able to switch roles. I started Overwatch playing close range brawly heroes (Dva, Reaper, Mei, Sym, Lucio) instead of focusing a role. That kind of hero pool doesn’t work well in role queue, because you need to a pool that allows you to swap within a single role to deal with counters.
I like role queue because it greatly removes the toxicity caused by everyone wanting to play dps. I enjoy being able to talk about composition or which way we are engaging instead of who’s taking tank in spawn room (which even in cool teams just took time away from other planning at the beginning of the game). I really enjoy the SR being separate between roles because it make it easier to focus a role for a while without worrying if I’ll be able to play another role when I climb.
I personally feel the opposite. RQ has flex pass which gives you players who don’t play tank/heals in those roles and results in a steam roll. Also, RQ has people who don’t want to wait in queue and will queue as heals but only dps costing us to get rolled. Also I get tons of matches with 2 dive tanks who solo dive especially on maps that a shield tank greatly is needed like Temple of Anubis. Nothing like 2 dive tanks or 1 dive 1 dps tank on defense on that map resulting in the other team capping in seconds.
RQ is a lot more fun because people actually will play the role they want and do good at it. I don’t get dps healers because they actually wanted to be support and will get at least 1 shield tank. Also, since people can play what they want, I just go in expecting 6 dps (which is fine as it is RQ). So whether we get 1 heal 1 tank or 1 tank only etc. it doesn’t bother me because that is what I queued for.
… I think you meant to type OQ in the last paragraph.
I am sorry, I did not address you personally in any way, even wrote it in my post, but used your post to also convey a general thing.
My point is that most of the ppl you Q up with in OQ in low elo are the same people that do not want to play RQ for various reasons.
This is not a prejudice at all, and I am the first one to defend DPS players when they complain about Tanks or supports, because I know how many times I as a support have failed to support my DPS, but yes, they are mostly DPS players in OQ. DPS player who do not want to sit in a longer Q, DPS players who never wanted to play as a team before RQ even came out and DPS players who always no matter what the callouts are, and who are even in VC never ever listen to them because they always think that they are the ones who know better and the same players who come on here to complain how they are stuck in a certain elo because of teammates, the System, MMR, while they do absolutely nothing, nothing at all to contribute whatsoever but only want to play a certain hero because they feel like it. They do not care that they are not only dunking their own SR down, but also the SR of 5 other people on their team, and they are the first ones to get toxic when smth does not go their way.
I again feel the need to point out that I have no prejudice whatsoever against DPS players, and I have even less prejudice against them once RQ came out and have realized how matches depend more on Tanks and supports in RQ than DPS. A DPS missing five shots in RQ can be neglected in a way or one can make up for it in other departments so to say, but a support missing five heal shots cannot be covered up with anything. It is an instant loss. I do not even want to go down the road of those supports that like to feel superior and “decide” whom they like or not on their team, whom to heal or not. Those supports I hate more than the selfish DPS players that made me hate the DPS role for a very long time and I refused to play it, but that is for another topic, not this one, only said it to prove a point. And those supports make all the other supports look bad.
But if you have 5 DPS and one support, who is going to make up for whom when most of them are like “I play what I want, how I want it”? If I also go for DPS support to make up for smth, I am ending up throwing more than they do.
To OP: I too share in this opinion, and believe in addition, that the queuing of roles is one of the best additions to the game full stop.
I actually rarely get games like that i am afraid. maybe 1 game out of 10
Please do provide any evidence that supports the claim of a player base decline due to RQ’s implementation.
What numbers?
You don’t really get how this works, do you? Longer queue times we a default aide - effect of RQ since the very beginning.
As long as queue times haven’t noticeably increased during all this time, then no the ““dwindling population”” claim is completely invalid (and even if there’s any actual evidence to prove such an increase, such as Dev quotes, statistics, etc., then there’s no way to say that’s due to RQ and not due to the many other changes that have been done to the game during all this time). And in my experience and that of tons of people I’ve come across is to be considered, queue times have only decreased as time has gone on.
Citation once again needed.
Stereotypical to say the least.
The only thing that’s objective is that this claim is in no way objective lmaooo.
Lmaooo… As if the distribution wasn’t a giveaway already, OQ us ““better balanced””?
Biased much?
Longer queues show a broken model. Supply/demand mismatch. That’s unprofessional design and out-of-touch from a systems/business perspective. They literally bribe to load-balance and it’s still garb. No1 needs to enter a debate about historical player numbers - 222 is a failed mode and the people behind it are failed.
OPEN is objectively better in terms of queue times, supply/demand matching, higher skillcap, meta combinatorics, more potential for carry agency, etc. It’s objectively better for options/second and matches/hour - actual gamer content- which is at the heart of session quality (which generalizes 1-off match “quality” interpretation). So unless you like your gamer metrics served low, it is objectively better.
You can’t change the players so improvements can only be accomplished by changing the systems which the players use.
After more than 3 years of OQ, it became apparent that such a freedom - centered system wouldn’t cut it for such a unique, complex, but ultimately, flawed game like Overwatch, not in low levels where people don’t know how to play the game (and were never even taught how to in the first place) and not in high levels where players were so good that the system was abused to a point that entire roles had become unplayable.
There’s no ““broken model”” involved here. The supply/demand mismatch and the subsequent high queue times had been expected collateral damage from the beginning.
Not even close and any indication we have points to the exact opposite conclusion.
Not for everyone, so no, you can’t call this claim objective, I’m afraid.
Disagreed.
If how crazy you can build a comp to be is such an important positive for you, without regarding subsequent match quality, then are you sure Competitive is the game mode for you?
And for throw agency… Let’s not forget what ““Flexing”” so oftenly boiled down to back during the pre - RQ days… People switching from Tank to Support to DPS in order to ““fill the gap””, but would end up naturally handicapping their teammates as a result.
Options whose extreme abuse in both low and high levels of play lead to the rightful implementation of RQ in the first place…
False. This cherry - picked definition isn’t gonna to cut it.
Despite everything else that can be said, more options naturally equals more options for misuse and therefore for the destruction of actual match quality.
Whether someone believes ““freedom”” in this case is or isn’t a necessary sacrifice to achieve a stable template for the game is their problem and up to their subjective crisis.
Once again, zero objectiveness involved in these claims.
I feel the opposite. RQ has people who think they can play certain roles well but can’t. OQ has OW veterans who know most roles and multiple characters.
Very few in comparison even play open queue. They should put the open queue button in arcade. There’s only one competitive mode where OWL is played, and that’s role queue. Having open queue up there is confusing to new players, takes unecessery space, can lead to clicking by mistake, and delegitimizes the real competitive mode that almost everyone plays.
For my survey group, OPEN had on average much faster queues than the demand weighted average of 222. And, it’s bribe-free. Better in expectation without factoring bribes. Frankly, the fact that 222 takes bribes to enforce it’s subjective notion of “quality” (i.e. 222=quality for all) just deletes it from further discussion. It’s a broken model.
Meanwhile, if OPEN is full of tank/support players - you don’t have a subjective “poor quality” argument (relative to LOCKDOWN). If OPEN is full of dps players - then it wins the queue times argument, objectively.
You would be wrong to disagree with math 
OPEN has a higher skillcap and higher meta-diversity because of the combinatorics involved. There are just (largeN) more things you can choose/do/affect with in OPEN. The ceiling/skillcap are there, and they are wayyyyy higher than lockdown system.
Whether or not players get anywhere near that is irrelevant. The set of things you can do in open, encloses the set of things you can do in 222. It’s more skillful just by ‘existance of choice’ alone. The relative skillfulness or impact of those extra things is irrelevant.
That means open has access higher skilled micro/macro/meta strategies. In fact, they dominate those of 222. Lockdown can’t get anywhere near the combinatorics of OPEN.
Hard wrong. Because more options means more emergence properties. Self-balancing, self-expression, real-time agency, etc.
Recall the end-user interprets “match quality” subjectively. Open gives them more license to select/access more choice for quality of experience. If everyone picks DPS, despite this carte blanche, then your definition of 222=quality is simply wrong, from a statistical perspective.
Sorry but math hurts 
Everyone picking DPS means your notion of 222=quality is out-of-touch, and the real notion of ‘quality’ means being able to pick and play dps.
And that is why 222 is objectively worse. OPEN doesn’t have to use a “quality” argument, at all. It uses a containment one.
“Everything you can do, I can do better”. said open to 222. Except horrible queues, bribes, and being out of touch. I guess lockdown wins those gamer metrics 
I’m all for the RQ. I’ve tried OQ and it was a hot mess. At least with RQ I have a somewhat fighting chance
Hot mess happens everywhere. Match quality is always subjective, and always a gamble. The things you shouldn’t gamble with are your options, freedom, creativity, and ability to actually get matches in without bribes.
Fighting chance, with handcuffs on? No thanks, I’ll take a fighting chance with OPTIONS, i.e. the chain cut loose just like Ben Hurr off the sinking boat.
But I mean your pov makes sense, because OQ is a harder more skillful mode with more options, real-time flex carry potential, more complex metas and win conditions, etc. It overloads people.
Why would a casual not want the ttk-buffering, mistake-padding, spoonfeed me a mirror-match scripted meta kind of 222 structure?
A gold 222 player wouldn’t cut a day in bronze open.
This is simply true, I climbed, just recently in OQ from 1100ish upto 2300, didn’t even take me 2 hours to get out of Bronze due to having superior skill.
Ok another one of these. “I climbed so it must be fine.”
Well my bros didn’t. They were not able to keep up with 4+ dps flankers. Too many mechanical demands, geometrical punish, angles, blindspots, 1clap sources, 1shot ranges, dps tempo/pressure, duels, etc. Not to mention the quick-convert into goats/brawl or overtime contest. Their hero pools were stressed, they had no concept of real-time flex agency, and felt taxed after only a few matches, 1000sr below 222.
These people just can’t keep-up without the ttk-buffered, mistake-padded world of scripted 222 mirrors. Tanks/supports have a too much impact, and it’s noticeable in OPEN more than lockdown.
Most of the OQ haters can’t even figure out what the problem was. Was it too many dps insta-lockers? No1 playing healer/tank? Or was it too many tanks/healers (goats)?
They still can’t get that story straight 
.
OQ still has faster queues (for dps), similar queues (for flex), and the much higher skillcap that comes from (potentially) leveraging far, far greater options. It’s just better in every sense.
I know of no valid data to support this claim
I know of no valid reason why this should be the case
on a related note, there should imo be a role-less queue qp mode on the main game selection screen, right alongside 222 qp
this became a necessity in OWL due to a ticket sales issue, but has never been an issue in role-less queue matches for the rest of us
there is no confusion, it is all labeled
there is an unlimited amount of space on the selection screens and subscreens
np…the player then cancels out of it
not at all
Blizzard has (sadly) made it crystal clear that for now 222 is the main mode
again, I know of no valid data to support this claim
I consistently get much better match quality in role-less queue than with 222; and in role-less queue I also avoid the many severe problems 222 has added to the game, including but not limited to the excessive queue wait times
All of this boils down to their mechanics, awareness, and game sense, if they can’t climb from their current rank, it isn’t the fault of their/enemy team, it’s just their current skill, if I was dropped into a match between 500-1000 SR lower than where I am now, I would undoubtedly dominate the match, yes I realize there are a lot of smurfs and griefers in low-high Bronze, but my problem was, when facing them, I still had better mechanical skill. It’s not just a story of “I did it so it’s fine” what I’m saying is, if the skill is there, climbing wont be an issue.
See, this is also skill related, until you hit the higher ranks, you can almost play anything you want, in anyway you want without people complaining so long as your performance isn’t lacking. And I agree fully that both tanks and support have a much higher impact in OQ, as they aren’t as common (in my experience, yours may differ).
I feel as if the easiest solution to the previous problem (comp before 222), would have easily been solved if the LFG tool was better, and we had some type of guild system. My favorite part about OQ is the ability to flex to what is needed for the win condition, the ONLY thing I like about 222 is a guaranteed balanced team (providing noone leaves).