In ow1 stacking tanks and supports was the best comp, but it was much less common than in ow2. And they were weaker in ow1 while having another player to do dmg to them. I am talking before the 150 nerf, as that was when they were so blatantly broken and needed nerfs.
How is 300 dps health? When literally 1 dps has that. Most are 200.
Again, I agree the 150 hp nerf to everyone was not a great solution. It was still an improvement over the first 2 ow2 seasons, but could certainly do with more changes.
How many characters have more hp/ armor/ overhealth/ shields than the base such of Doom, Zarya, Junker, and Ramattra? Specifically, how many have more on command where as 2 of those need to hit with abilities for theirs? Being able to survive an extra 49 damage than Reaper or Mei, one has an 80% self heal every 10 seconds or so (idk the CD on that ability) and the other has life steal that will artificially give him more than 300 hp, yeah, I would say 300 hp is dps health.
None has over 300. 1 has 300. If you are trying to count abilities like ice block, overload for torb etc. Well then torb also goes over 300 if done at full health. And that’s it. 3 of those 4 tanks also increase their health.
Dps base health is still 200. We have a few at 250, one at 225, and a couple below 200. Then bastion at 300 while having a huge hitbox. The standard non tank health is this game is 200, not 300.
I did the exact same thing back in 2021. I neglected “competitive” OQ for comp RQ for over a year just because RQ was the “main mode” that OW became forced around. I regret not taking advantage of 6v6OQ while I still had it. Yeah, the nu-openqueues since GOATS-nerfs and RQ happened suck compared to classic OQ but they are still leagues better than any version of RQ. Sadly with the OW2 changes on top of everything else I can’t bring myself to even touch OQ anymore. The whole game is too far gone. It’s like playing a really bad knock-off of a once good game I played years before.
To this day I still don’t understand why Blizzard devs have such a hard-on for the role queue format when it so obviously created more issues than it solved. It’s as if they hate fun and having a playerbase.
Allow me to enlighten you. It was in response to mass player complaints about having games like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1o0tvaPqyg
And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyfHCFv8lU
Thank you for the link to the first video. Genuinely hilarious and takes me back. But those issues absolutely could have been resolved without role queue by simply having competent developers managing the game instead of whatever the hell we got.
Look, if “have competent developers” is the best you can offer as a solution to the problems with open queue, you’re not exactly painting it in a good light. It’s about as helpful as saying “Don’t lose” after someone’s lost a match.
Do you want me to list everything they did wrong, or provide a list of better alternatives to role queue? Why would I even need to? Its faults are pretty obvious. But here since you asked for solutions:
And here is a list of problems that role queue caused for the game, too. It’s long so you can see why I didn’t bother mentioning them in my initial post earlier and simply called out the devs instead. The post is dated from before OW2’s launch but sadly still holds up in almost all points. Like how the devs traded long queue times for nuked matchmaking quality.
I thought OQ was easier to balance since there were so many team comp options to counter any given thing. I wasn’t and still am not a fan of RQ, because it just limits options for teams and makes it easier for a single hero to exploit balancing issues.
Like it used to be fine for Soldier to be overpowered because you could just throw three tanks at him to invalidate that. Now, you hope your tank switches to counter or you lose.
That won’t work. The problem wasn’t an individual character being picked too much, it was two entire roles that nobody wanted to play.
Oh yeah, make tanks and supports weaker. I’m sure that’ll solve the problem of nobody wanting to play Tank or Support.
If you want to remove the need for healers entirely, then it doesn’t like you want to play a team game where everyone has a distinct combat role, it sounds like you want to play a TDM-style shooter where everyone is just trying to individually perform well. And at that point you’re seriously compromising one of the main appeals of Overwatch for a lot of people.
Both of these are literally just minor variations of role queue, and they don’t solve the issue of players regularly needing to fill instead of playing what they’re good at, or having the same MMR for all 3 roles so they can’t play a different role unless they want to lose their rank.
Again, none of these solve the issue of nobody wanting to play tank or support.
You have a really rosy view of Open Queue, mate. And you’re really in the minority if you think Role Queue was bad for the game; outside of a vocal minority of diehard Open Queue enthusiasts, the complaints about Role Queue are about queue times… and that’s it. People really don’t give a crap about the rest. And queue times are mostly negligible nowadays anyhow.
As with many things in life, how things work in theory and how they work in practice are often vastly different.
The problem with Open Queue balance-wise is that every role had to be balanced around there being anywhere from 1 of them to 6 of them in a given match- a task which often proved impossible. A character which is fine in a vacuum might end up being game-breaking when synergized with certain other characters.
GOATS is the most egregious example of this. Tanks and Supports in particular synergize really well with each other- Tanks can peel for their Supports and each other well enough that it’s often impossible to focus anyone down, while Supports provide enough utility to make up for their lack of raw damage and pumped out enough healing numbers to keep the tanks healthy through almost anything.
The devs spent months scrambling to try and find a way to break the comp, but found they couldn’t do so without making several of the comp’s key characters- characters which were fine outside of GOATS- completely unplayable.
Doesn’t work. Doesn’t work. Doesn’t work. Widowmaker is very oppressive against everyone in Open Q. She can two shot the entire cast with a Mercy pocket or Zen discord in OQ I believe.
And you already started off wrong twice in the first sentence. There were plenty of heroes that needed retuning to their kit numbers and a handful that needed reworked abilities to would have improved the game. Plus, plenty of people wanted to play support and tank, and they did. Wood and metal rank players, unfortunately, weren’t “good” at the game and found many excuses to complain about other than changing their own playstyles or improving at what they were+weren’t already capable of. Hence why there was no deficiency of willing tank and support players in 3K sr and up because ANYONE who actually knew how to play those roles at a somewhat decent level got boosted to those higher skill tiers. The ones who didn’t? Stayed in metal rank hell or lower complaining about 4+ dps instead of figuring out how to climb out of those lobbies filled with metal dps, or by figuring out how to use the many social grouping features that OW devs provided them to predetermine their team’s role compositions.
Again, you so obviously don’t know what you are talking about if you think most players of classic OW didn’t want to play tank or support. It’s straight up misinformation. I want you to think for a second and understand that adding MORE tanks and supports to the game would get MORE PLAYERS picking them. And making those tanks fun to play with more self-agency without being tied to their teammates for survivability or reducing those tanks/supports into barrier bots/heal spammers gets more players playing them. If anything, the biggest barrier to getting players trying the tank and support roles is them believing that they have to spend most the match sponging damage or healing teammates while not trying to get elims. Gutting sustain and damage back to launch OW powerlevels would make those roles popular again because they become more fun to play.
You are exposing yourself into someone who either didn’t play the original OW, or someone who has zero memory of that time. Because you couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve been playing since the open beta as a flex player, and all the roles have been ruined since that time period with support role being one of the biggest offenders. How does me suggesting that MORE supports should have been added to the game or that tanks and dps should be able to play the game without relying on supports make me want remove the need for healers entirely for the whole game? Tone down the extreme thinking there, I just want the game to return to what it once was, only better. Being able to win with only one healer should be perfectly viable. Being able to win with supports that don’t synergize with each other or other teammates should be viable. Even being able to win a match without any support on the team should still be possible. THAT IS BALANCE and decent game design. I know because I still remember a time when that was possible back when the game was insanely popular and successful, partly because of it. Not whatever garbage the game consists of now where players are restricted to playing the same limited playstyles every match. Was classic OW truly balanced? Of course not, there were plenty of issues that needed fixing that never happened. But it was better because you could play in so many different ways without it being throwing because your teammates could mix up the way that they play, too. I assure you that between the two of us I am the one who cares more about preserving the appeals of OW.
Umm no, they are significantly better alternatives to role queue that don’t cause remotely as many problems that RQ caused. Which is exactly why I listed them. So I have no idea why you even bothered to say that.
One reply point ago you just incorrectly accused me of being a TDM-shooter type who doesn’t care about the main appeals of OW. Yet here you are saying that changing up roles mid match is an issue instead of being a core aspect of OW . Here’s a lesson for you. Players will never be good at another role or hero if they never try them. Hence why anyone who actually knew how to fill or play a role correctly climbed out of metal ranks and the ones who didn’t blamed everyone else and gave up whenever they had 3+ dps.
But do you know what will reduce a player’s need to fill? Actual roster balance where teams are not required to have a certain number of tanks and supports on their team in order to win a match. So make up your mind. Players regularly needing to fill is somehow an issue according to you but my suggestion where tanks+dps don’t need to rely on supports as much in order to play optimally is somehow bad even though it wouldn’t killing team play at all but it would reduce the need for role filling and complaints by teammates? I feel like I just boxed you in a corner here because your counter points are all over the place.
First off even one rank for a whole role is not accurate anyway, because it only reflects a player’s rank for the heroes they play + succeed with. As we all know someone can be a GM mercy player but the same skill as a plat or worse on every other support. Secondly, being able to swap to another role/hero you’re not as good at in match in order to benefit the team in a match is a type of skill that can absolutely lead to more victories, not defeats. As well as lead to more experience on other heroes that aren’t their best ones at higher skill levels. Again, that was not an issue. Both flexing and filling were skills that lead to better rank, not issues that caused players to lose matches. Because only the bad players lost matches whenever they swapped and couldn’t adapt, or refused to swap heroes/roles and lost because of it. Tbh, I don’t really see where you were going with this at all. Rank retention is rank retention, but you still have to be good enough at heroes to get up there in the first place. The obvious solution is making more role compositions viable through better roster balance so that “undesired filling” is not nearly as frequent. But remind me again how role queue solved the filler problem? Pretty sure swapwatch is still pretty terrible to play but with even more stale comps thanks to rolelocking.
Not really, I just have working brain cells that remember different periods of OW across the years. Unfortunately, yours seem like they don’t remember anything before 2019 when the game was still decent, and not ruined for the worse yet.
Literally untrue given the tens of millions who quit this game and didn’t come back specifically due to issues caused by role queue that I included in my long linked list. Countless players complained about them for years, it was never just about queue times. There is a reason why the first two years of OW were more successful than any year after it.
Oh man. Did you miss the never ending threads about matchmaking that have been happening since the RQ update? Or the balance changes being made to tailor to RQ balancing? Or how ill-recieved 5v5 is and all of its problems? You don’t have to respond because I already did a pretty great job tearing down your whole argument. You haven’t been able to refute a single one of my points this whole time. You were too stuck on mentioning how unpopular tank and support always were to play for everyone (which was wrong), and denying/ignoring the many many issues with RQ I presented you. But I get it, you have to be a very certain type of person to go out of your way to defend the devs and the current game instead of letting some guy point out a fault in a slowly dying game. But next time maybe don’t try to double down and be more prepared so you don’t expose yourself as someone with incorrect knowledge and disingenuous intentions to damage control OW2.
I will leave you with this:
Open Queue with its better matchmaking, at least twice as many tanks and supports that aren’t barrier/healbots that don’t break the game
Role queue with significantly worse matchmaking, only 7-10 tanks and supports that flood the game with way too much sustain making players rely heavily on teammates to accomplish anything.
Now which one is better for both the health of the game and more enticing to a majority of players? It’s not a trick question. Next time try thinking about it.
So, if I want to climb, I have to fill instead of playing what I’m good at (Or what I enjoy)?
This is exactly why they implemented Role Queue.
Been playing since open beta. Try again.
The difference between you and me is that I don’t have nostalgia for old Overwatch. Because I remember its old flaws all too clearly.
No they’re not, they were band-aid fixes that left many of the biggest underlying issues unaddressed.
I agree. That’s why I hated Open Queue; match after match, I had to fill instead of trying a new character. I was constantly presented with a choice where either I would choose a healer or a tank, or our team wouldn’t have a healer or a tank. If I didn’t feel like playing a healer or a tank that game, well then I was just SOL.
You have a very warped definition of “actual roster balance”. To you, “actual roster balance” seems to mean “Every possible team composition should have a near-equal chance of winning, regardless of the situation”.
And that is a ridiculous goal to set; different characters will always synergize better with some characters than with others, fare differently on different maps, and have better or worse matchups against different enemies. The only way you’re ever going to achieve your definition of “actual roster balance” is to have one, and only one character in the entire roster. To have everyone play Soldier: 76, and no one else.
Yeah, because the game was new to people then. The game’s hype was at its peak. They had a different experience, one that can’t be replicated simply by going back to an old version of the game. Saying it was better is patently false.
OQ is a dumpster. QP Role queue has some pretty awful players you get thrown in with, but OQ takes the cake for the amount of window lickers and potato heads.
No, i didn’t say that you have to fill or not play what you enjoy. I’d call out your reading comprehension but it’s pretty obvious you are going out of your way to lead into why role queue was needed because your bad intentions are too obvious. Let me repeat myself for you anyway despite you obviously not caring what I had to say earlier. Good players knew how to fill or play their respective roles properly. Good players didn’t even need to fill, just be better than the other team and compensate for one or two bad teammates. Next time read more carefully there.
And role queue was implemented for the reasons I already linked to you. And it was a failure for the reasons I also presented to you earlier. If you can’t refute a single point or have to resort to misconstruing some of them in order to get your copy+pasted excuses out there then don’t bother. You are just making other OW2 defenders look bad.
Except you clearly don’t or are lying about playing since the open beta. Because tank and support players were never unpopular before the GOATS nerfs happened. You made yourself very clear here but you somehow don’t know this??
I swear, it’s like you are trying to come off as a troll here. Role queue was the band-aid fix. RQ was training wheels for players who didn’t know how to adapt their playstyles or form premade groups, and training wheels for the devs who gave up on balancing. It wouldn’t have been nearly as disastrous for the game if they only forced RQ on competitive plat lobbies and below. But sadly they forced the format on everyone instead of seeking better solution despite know one actually needing it.
??? what is wrong with you? You could have done both at the same time, or just ignored them and stayed the original hero you wanted to play. Be honest, what rank were you playing at where you couldn’t play what you wanted to or experiment with a new hero?
Did you know you could find or meet people to group up with and completely fix that issue? The devs gave you so many ways to do so. Alternatively, you could have just played better at those tank or support heroes and climbed out of those 5+ dps lobbies you claim happened soooo much to lobbies where people played more variety. There is a reason why metal and wood ranks are filled with dps players, because they aren’t good at dps but also don’t know how to fill! All the actually decent players leave them behind. Filling on behalf of bad dps players is bad in it’s own right. If it bothered you that much you should have just queued with friends, or made friends, or LFG with randoms. I shouldn’t have to teach you at all how RQ wasn’t the solution for that and why it was so unhealthy for the game, yet here we are.
Again with your completely nonsense extreme mentality. What is wrong with you tonite? Did I say that every single hero combination should be viable every match? NO. I said more compositions should have been playable without specific ones dominating almost every match. Obviously, teams who have more synergy will have more of an advantage, as it should be. But the team going the safe 2-2-2 shouldn’t win 90%+ of the time just because of the role comp structure. That’s idiotic. And again, I find myself having to point out that you complaining about having to fill to tank/support because somehow all of your other teammates aren’t playing those roles wouldn’t have to happen if 5 or 6 dps comps were still somewhat playable and not as frustrating. How are you not getting this?? An actually balanced roster would not have you complaining about getting 5 dps players every match. And more available support and tank players who aren’t sustain bots would get more of those lousy dps lockers trying other roles, too. Get a clue man.
It was only new for like the first couple months it released. That’s what new means. The game’s peak hype was sometime during 2017 I believe when it hit peak players, like a whole year after release. It stayed popular up until sometime in 2018 when the bad was starting to sour the good aspects of the game. OW was absolutely better during it’s first years, in active players, hype, reputation, fun, and even balance (which really says something). But thanks for outing yourself as a resident shill because no one can willingly reply this many times ignoring the essays of points shutting you and role queue down while you have been so consistently wrong. So bravo, your determination to damage control for the sake of your bosses is almost commendable. Not sure why you insist on replying to me when I’ll just keep shooting down your bad takes. Seems counterintuitive to being a shill to me but whatever.
If you want people to actually read every detail of your whole post, why don’t you learn to condense your writing instead of posting 1000+ word walls of text?
A good argument can be made in far less than that. If you can follow it, internalize it, and explain it clearly and concisely to someone else, you know you’ve understood it.
But if you feel the need to pad out every single talking point to where your whole post is 3+ pages long, it seems to me like you’re either rambling because you don’t understand your own arguments all that well, or you’re trying to throw so many words at me at once that I’ll slip up by skimming it.
i would play it more but for some unknown reasons people pick that role that has the least q time in role q.
meaning to many wanna play dps while dps q time is less than 1 min while support barely gets picked which is the longest q in role q.
i just don’t understand unless people really like playing dps into low hp tanks.
but usually it boils down to which team goes 3-2 first, as thats also whats stopping me from playing to much mistery heroes, one team ends up with 2 or 3 tanks and supports and just rolls.
. Here’s a lesson for you. Players will never be good at another role or hero if they never try them. Hence why anyone who actually knew how to fill or play a role correctly climbed out of metal ranks and the ones who didn’t blamed everyone else and gave up whenever they had 3+ dps.