Opaque Matchmaker: Don't legitimate electronic sports need transparency?

[Buttǃ-1842]

He’s an angry “its the matchmaker, not me” player hiding behind the guise of logic. Not worth arguing.

[Cerprise-1257]

@Buttǃ-1842

He’s an angry “its the matchmaker, not me” player hiding behind the guise of logic. Not worth arguing.

Do you work for Blizzard? I ask because I see no particular difficulty in understanding why someone would want transparency in the matchmaker, so your inability to understand must be come kind of hangup? Please explain.

Can Blizzard Employees exploit Matchmaker Insider Information?

Can Blizzard employees exploit matchmaker insider information in order to get higher rankings and/or better quality matchups? And if so, does this suggest that there would be a bias among Blizzard employees against fixing such problems with the matchmaker? For example, if you knew that the MMR calculator favored certain specific behaviors, then if you were a Blizzard employee playing Overwatch, presumably you would consciously try to match these behaviors, whereas those of us without the inside…

[Buttǃ-1842]

I can understand wanting transparency, but this

Open up the algorithms and the data, and don’t be so arrogant as to think you have designed the best possible matchmaking system. Found your system on transparency and comprehensibility, invite third parties to critique your design, and refine it so it’s actually the best system it can be.

Until Blizzard becomes transparent and accountable, there’s no reason whatsoever to trust anything they say about their algorithms; the default attitude should be cynicism and distrust, to assume that whatever they’re doing it’s only to get more cash in their pockets and not to make the game the best it can be, because there’s simply no reason a legitimate electronic sport would hide this key information.

is borderline insane conspiracy theorist garbage. All the reasonable information you could want has already been given to us.

[OtherJex-1680]

OPAQUE MATCHMAKER: DON’T LEGITIMATE ELECTRONIC SPORTS NEED TRANSPARENCY?

No.

eSports have organised leagues. The teams already exist. The league determines the match schedule (or fixture). There is no need for any matchmaker, transparent or otherwise.

[Cerprise-1257]

@Quarters-11687

Read those two posts. And no, NO COMPANY is going to be transparent to the point of literally posting source code. It’s up to you to decide if they’ve clarified enough about matchmaking for you.

Straw man: knowing the MMR performance metrics does not require having the source code.

You seem to believe:

1. This information is too dangerous to know.

2. It is OK for Blizzard employee-players to know it (Can Blizzard Employees exploit Matchmaker Insider Information?).

3. Even if you knew the information it would have little impact; just play to win and you’ll get fair matchups.

Is that a fair summary of your position?

[Quarters-11687]

@Cerprise-1257

Straw man: knowing the MMR performance metrics does not require having the source code.

You seem to believe:

1. This information is too dangerous to know.

2. It is OK for Blizzard employee-players to know it (Can Blizzard Employees exploit Matchmaker Insider Information?).

3. Even if you knew the information it would have little impact; just play to win and you’ll get fair matchups.

Is that a fair summary of your position?

I’ll admit to strawmanning your argument, but you’re strawmanning too when you bring accusations of “Blizzard employees” to the table.

As Kaawumba’s topic has explained via blue posts from Jeff Kaplan, MMR works the same as your public-facing SR, and the SR-inactivity-decay system shows this. It isn’t “performance metrics”, and it’s not something you exploit in order to get “better matches” or a “higher rank.” Basically, your MMR IS your rank. THAT is not opaque.

If you want to exactly know what statistics or what actions (say, "Ultimate Shutdown +50"s you accumulate in a game) affects how much you gain or lose on a win or loss, I’ll say this again: NO game does this. So if you want FULL transparency, no company is going to give that to you UNLESS the game is fully open-source. And as stated by the blues, the main factor of your gains and losses IS whether you won or lost.

As for points 1 and 3:

1. I’d say partially, yes. The entire point of “performance metrics” allowing someone to gain more than the base on a win or lose more than the base on a loss is to allow more rank mobility to someone that may skill-wise be misranked if they outperform statistically consistently, and it depends on their statistical performance compared to peers at the same rank. Medals are NOT factored in at all. When the Mercy rez factor was hinted to the public, many people tried to exploit the hell out of it.
2. That was the entire point. As far as the matchmaker is concerned, your teammates and your enemies are at the same general rank as you (examples of otherwise would be the very, very extreme ends of the SR spectrum, so the players that are way below SR<500, or players at SR 4500 and above).

[Cerprise-1257]

I’ll admit to strawmanning your argument, but you’re strawmanning too when you bring accusations of “Blizzard employees” to the table.

How?

NO game does this. So if you want FULL transparency, no company is going to give that to you UNLESS the game is fully open-source.

I think you’re wildly exaggerating. E.g. see the WC3 ladder info FAQ and charts. (Apparently I’m not allowed to post a link.)

Again, I never asked for the source, that’s a straw man, remember?

As for points 1 and 3:

So you think the information is dangerous for players to know, yet you’re OK that Blizzard player-employees can know it. How do you reconcile this contradiction?

You also think that knowing the information would have little impact on matches. Well if so, how is it dangerous?

I think if you’ve designed a matchmaker that judges performance based on metrics that are dangerous to disclose, then you obviously made a mistake somewhere. Players should be given an honest idea of what counts as being a well-performing player and what counts as being a poorly-performing one.

Saying “win games” is a dodge; the very point is that matchmaking isn’t solely a function of winning games. It should be, but you don’t get to pretend that it is when the argument is that it isn’t and should be.

How is it even remotely OK that Blizzard has designed a matchmaker that gives an unfair advantage to Blizzard employees?

is borderline insane conspiracy theorist garbage.

Nope, it’s simply a reasonable policy to have regarding people behaving in untrustworthy ways. If you observed someone shoplifting, would you invite them to babysit your kids? Yes, because it’s “insane conspiracy theorist garbage” to judge behavior in one area and make estimates about their behaviors in others? Too bad for your kids.

[iloveyou-11602]

Do you work for Blizzard?

What’s your deal with calling anyone who disagrees with you or disproves you a Blizzard shill?

[Cerprise-1257]

What’s your deal with calling anyone who disagrees with you or disproves you a Blizzard shill?

For the record, I have screenshots, and will probably be contacting journalists. Nice work.

[iloveyou-11602]

For the record, I have screenshots, and will probably be contacting journalists.

??? Are you trying to threaten me? For what?

[Cerprise-1257]

Are you trying to threaten me?

No, but you’re working to get me blocked from posting to this forum by feigning that. It doesn’t matter, I have all the info I need on the subject.

[iloveyou-11602]

feigning that

Feigning what?

I have all the info I need on the subject.

All the info you need for what?

[Filhadiireth]

This thread has been locked before conversation could devolve even further.