Opaque Matchmaker: Don't legitimate electronic sports need transparency?

I’m ignoring it because it’s a silly premise – tennis is a sport regardless of skill, cycling is a sport regardless of skill, etc. Obviously they have amateur categories.

“Competitive” and “eSport” should just be synonyms.

If your point is that their “Competitive” system is bastardized such that it’s not a true sport, well, that’s my point.

The truth is that that’s presumptuous. You should respond to what’s actually stated, not pretend you’re a mind-reader.

Apparently your mentality is such that you can’t understand why an amateur or beginner would want to be able to compete at his chosen sport in the same way as professionals (an honest transparent ladder system), ergo you grasp at straws to explain my posts. I can’t explain your mentality (please feel free to explain yourself), I can only ask you to observe the fact that amateur sports is really a thing many people like to do, and that if you corrupted that with insidious opaque algorithms the amateurs would complain.

Except one single fact that everyone here keeps ignoring:

COMP. IS. NOT. A. ESPORT.

It’s a game, nothing else. And comparing it to a professional sport is entirely pointless.

They aren’t. No matter how much you think they should be, it simply isn’t true.

“Esport”, since the words creation has always referred to professional video game play. You can’t change the meaning of language to suit your argument, that’s not how it works.

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That’s not even a logical statement. Consider: “No matter how much you think murder should be illegal, it simply isn’t true.”

All you’re doing is repeating yourself over and over “COMP. IS. NOT. A. ESPORT.” But guess what: argument by emphatic assertion isn’t an argument.

Players deserve a transparent honest sportsmanship-like laddering system, regardless of skill level. For some strange reason you disagree with this premise. Well go ahead and make an actual logical argument for your strange viewpoint, but don’t just keep repeating “I disagree! I disagree!” ad nauseam.

Your entire argument is drawing cherry-picked parallels to physical sports and stating what “should” be and what players “deserve”, yet you’re going to try to call him out on fallacies?

The simple truth is that there is too much of a difference between eSports and physical sports. You can’t compare the two. What physical sport is created and completely controlled by a single company?

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You’re trying very hard to ignore the point of my original statement so I’ll say it one last time:

“Esport” and “competitive” are not synonyms. That is a fact.

You are literally trying to argue against language, only to prove your point. This is beyond delusional.

I don’t, for someone that likes to call people “presumptuous” you really like to presume a whole lot about other people.

What I disagree with, is that blizzard not giving more info on the matchmaker makes them some evil organization that’s trying to hide something from players.

It’s nothing more than pandering of someone who thinks more info will fix the comp system. It won’t.

What it will do is wast a whole lot of their time trying to teach people how a complicated algorithm works.

But hey, that’s just my opinion. Keep hoping on the blizzard hate train, grasping at whatever straws you can to justify this blind hatred you seem to have for people just trying to make games.

I can see now that your not interested in reason, hope you find some sort of meaning to all this delusional rambling.

See ya. :slightly_smiling_face:

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“Hello Mr. NFL commissioner. How do I get to the Super Bowl and how are teams formed?”

NFL commissioner… :man_shrugging:

Better yet, “How many points do I get when I score a touchdown?”

“That depends. You’ll see, just score and you’ll get points.”

“But what does it depends on?”

“That’s a secret or you might exploit it!”

:rofl:

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No, you’re literally trying to dodge the substance of my point over a semantic quibble. Go ahead and take your quibbling “that’s not how eSports is defined” point, what remains is the fact that players deserve a transparent competitive system analogous to what we get for other sporting events.

You don’t want to call OW a “sport”, I think it is an electronic sport, regardless of the skill of the players or whether money is involved: winning takes strategy, skills, reflexes, training, teamwork. It’s a sport. Whether the word “eSport” is the status quo definition that would apply is a wholly separate, trifling and irrelevant, matter. (I’d argue they’ve mis-defined “eSport” – but again, separate point.)

Everything you’ve been saying is irrelevant dodging, so that’s a wise move.

Nobody forced Blizzard to design a bad matchmaker. The criticism is actually given because people love the game that they care that the matchmaker is good. You’re the one with the seething incomprehensible hate – for anyone who has ideas on how to improve things. You’ve literally done nothing but dodge my points and attack my motives. “See ya.”

When you are playing WC3, or even more traditional shooters like CS:GO each, players can be judged on generally the same criteria since all characters/races are very similar (this also allows W/L to carry more meaningful weight as ranking metric). In OW though, the heroes are very asymmetrical by design so how you judge Rein play vs how you judge Widow play vs how you judge Mercy play are three very different sets of criteria.

It’s sorta like judging NBA players vs judging NFL players. In the NBA stats like field goal %, free throw %, assists, blocked shots, etc., are, to varying degrees, applicable to all players regardless of position. In the NFL though QBs, RBs, receivers, offensive lineman, kickers, corner backs, etc., are all judged on very different criteria because, like in OW, each position has very different responsibilities.

Some things I think could improve the rankings/comp experience:

6-stacks should get their own queue in comp, though you’d probably have to differentiate between LFG 6 stacks (which could be 6 randos) and pre-made 6-stack groups.

Each role should get a different MMR (but that will probably necessitate role locks so someone can’t get match-made in a gold role and the switch to a bronze level role or a diamond level role during a match). Maybe you could switch roles in-game as long as the MMR difference wasn’t too big?

Having guilds could help foster team-focused play so players are less likely to chase individual stats to the detriment of the rest of their team. Maybe there is an XP bonus for playing with guild mates like there is for playing in a group?

BUT the problem with trying to get too specific and creating a lot of subdivisions during match making is you’ll run the risk of longer and longer queue times. Ex. I think Jeff said that in their role queue tests the queue time for DPS players could be as high as 20-30min. They have to weigh finding a ‘close enough’ match in a shorter amount of time verse finding a ‘perfect match’ in a much longer amount of time.

We are talking about how to rank individual players though, not how the playoff system works.

Outside of QB Rank I don’t think the NFL has any official formula to rank individual player performance. And even QBR is limited which is why other companies like ESPN and Football Outsiders have developed their own player ranking methodologies. A lot of it comes down to context which is why relying on software only is so hard. For example, if a pass is intercepted who gets the blame? Is it the QBs fault because he threw a bad pass, or is it the receivers fault for running a bad route or tipping a catchable ball into the air? But Blizz has no choice but to rely on software because it’s not realistic to have humans watch and evaluate every player in every comp game.

How pro scouts grade individual players when it comes time for the draft and for trades is a more apt comparison, IMO. Ex. Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring but by most accounts he’s a ‘meh’ QB that was hard-carried by one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL (which is why he’s the only starting NFL QB to be released from their team after winning a Super Bowl). If you were building a team from scratch I’d rather have a guy like Dan Marino or Warren Moon as QB even though Dilfer has the ultimate symbol of NFL success, a Super Bowl ring, and they don’t.

Can OWL ranking be better? Of course. Do I blame Blizz for trying to create a more comprehensive, if currently flawed, MM? No.

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no team games form teams with a dice roll, it takes a leader and followers

OW needs guilds and a Player Directory (a reverse LFG)

MMR/SR is unorthodox for team games.

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While I think OW’s Matchmaker is the best one Ive ever seen in a game, I agree that the game must have more transparency.

This scheme of AI “judging” wasn’t in WC3, if you won you got full credit for the win, it didn’t try to make team members fight one another over who will get more credit. (As many have pointed out, this is unhealthy. E.g. I often find people aggressively pushing the defense back to their starting location instead of defending the point in order to score more kills, and then this aggressiveness backfires and the point is lost.)

Did you read my reply? I wrote that the current matchmaker IS transparent.

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I feel like I have to repost this again just in this topic alone, because people are ignoring this topic and all the references to Blizzard’s posts on Competitive mode’s matchmaking. (References section at the bottom of the opening post)

Hopefully, people aren’t intentionally ignoring it. Hell, I’d rather people say that Blizzard is straight-up lying and claim that matchmaking is intentionally rigged rather than people ignore the references.

the current matchmaker is NOT transparent

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I think he read your reply and I did too, and what you wrote makes no sense.

You say the system is transparent but there are parts of it which are not. You happen to think that’s better for players, but sorry, that’s not the point. The system isn’t transparent if part of it is hidden, whether you think that’s a good idea or not.

The system is hidden. And that’s not how serious competition works.

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My friend I have a video of this same game developer saying that he purposely create matches where one team will stomp on the other in order to create a feeling of a diverse matchmaker. He is truly saying he rigged matches in order to pretend that the matchmaking is real. I will post it and I wonder if blizzard is to delete it.

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It is not my friend, they cannot make it transparent because it would reveal the mayhem that is going on, they will never reveal it.

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I’m wondering what part of the system you think is hidden?

They have said quite a bit about how it works. I think it starts with ping, then goes to MMR and widens if it takes too long. I’m not sure exactly. I don’t feel like going back and reading about it, but what do you think they are hiding from you?

Yes, how MMR works is hidden to an extent, and for good reason. All we know is that it goes up when you win and down when you lose, but…I’m okay with that.

To the op: chess or tennis players? What does that have to do with video games? And I’ll ask you the same question, what would you like to know about matchmaking that they haven’t told you?

As far as how do I know I’m at the rank I belong at? Because bronze players are worse than silver players are worse than gold etc. It is very apparent if you’ve played through these ranks. With the exception of a few smurf players.

And after reading through some of these posts, your definition of esports doesn’t seem to be correct. What does the matchmaker have to do with esports? (It isn’t used)

As I have already explained, the word “eSport” isn’t the point, the point is about a competitive system for electronic sports, which should work on principles analogous to competitive sports in other realms, both amateur and professional, such as tennis, cycling, and so on.

I have revised the original post to say “electronic sport” rather than “eSport”, since that’s what I meant and since the word “eSport” seems to be problematic.

And I think the word “eSport”, if it isn’t going to function in this general “electronic sport” sense, is probably not a good concept. Traditionally we say “professional sports” if we want to refer to the fact that they earn a living from it, we don’t make up a word that implies that amateurs aren’t also doing the sport.

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