And thats literally all that I WANTED TO PROVE. He has very high reward as getting the ult takes doesnt take much skill. And using the ult is also 0 skill. You can use it midfight on point.
Compared to other heroes he requires the least of skill and game sense. Even sym requires game plan.
I will admit I only read about the first 50 of these posts, but decided to go ahead and give in my two cents.
I have over 230 hours on Hanzo, 120+ on Mercy (most are pre-rework if that means anything) and 110+ hours on Zen. I have played both aim-based heroes, and non-aim based heroes and have learned the ins and outs of them through my time playing them. In my opinion, Zenyatta is the hardest of these three because you need the aim of Hanzo but the awareness of Mercy, so he’s literally a “do everything at once” kind of guy.
However, does this devalue any of my time on Hanzo or Mercy? No. Is my knowledge on Zen more valuable than my time on Hanzo or Mercy? Again no. They all play differently but have their own pros and cons.
Where Zen lacks in healing, he makes up for in damage which he uses to aid in his survivability. Mercy gives that up in order to have higher healing but as a result she has to rely on her team in order to survive. Where Zen lacks in utility (discord is his only offensive tactic) he makes up for one of the best support ults in the game, Hanzo only really gives his team sonic arrow in terms of utility, but makes up for it in damage, assuming his can land his shots.
Has my Hanzo game improved having played both Mercy and Zen? Yes I am more aware of the ult economy and positioning, but overall it’s still not comparable to Zen or Mercy. Does my Mercy game benefit from me knowing how to aim? Again yes, nothing is more satisfying than getting a Genji to panic ult because I know how to use my pistol and then flying away. The impact these skills have on my games on these heroes are lesser than the heroes they were made to benefit.
There have been games where I know the team needs more healing, so I switched to Mercy and gave up my killing card. There are games where I am not healing at all and so I switch to Hanzo from Zen and make a bigger impact by having that aim down. There are games where I am killing it as Hanzo but I see no one is helping out main healer so I go Zen to cover them, and that switch makes a bigger impact than if I were to be glued to their size as Hanzo. Then there are games where my team lacks coordination in order for Mercy to be effective, so I switch to Zen and between my sheer fire power and my team’s ability to follow a discord, I have been able to nudge the team to victory.
Any of these above experiences doesn’t devalue the others. Yes I was a “good” Mercy after only clocking in like 5 hours on her when it took me until hour 50 to be half decent at Hanzo, but that’s just because I had to get that mechanical skill to get good at him, but that’s how things are. Is it frustrating when a spamrat murders me as Hanzo or Zen? Yeah, it does, but I adjust how I play to get around him, as everyone should, in order to get into a better position to hit him before he hits me. I adjust.
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You should probably not be so hyperbolic then and focus on making constructive comments that can be backed up.
I don’t have a problem with him being able to cast in the middle of a fight, although a longer cast time would make it easier to stop him from suddenly exploding everyone.
That being said, an example of the problem with your way of putting things is you say using his ult is 0 skill. It’s not, not if you want to be effective with it in more situations. But it does potentially reward some pretty dumb maneuvers, again especially at lower skill levels where the other players are not aware.
edit: I will also add that I doubt these problems are as large as you think at higher levels, I would at least hope the team is making an effort to kill the junk in their midst. Unfortunately I’m not much higher than you and I routinely see folks fail to react so I think many of your problems are as much an indictment of the skill levels of the people you’re playing with.
It’s definitely a casual friendly game where positioning and game sense can carry you farther than standard FPS.
That said, ultimately it comes down to mechanical skill, especially at higher levels. It doesn’t necessarily have to be aim, but superior movement and actions will always seperate the contenders from the pretenders.
Did you seriously just blame the weapon for it’s user slipping?
Making better weapons won’t prevent dumb accidents like that…
The blame goes to the fact that the sword is far harder to use well and only slightly more effective than the mace in its ideal situation.
If a slip is all it took to kill you then you should have picked up a weapon that doesn’t require stances vulnerable to slipping to be used effectively. Like a rock tied to a stick.
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The main problem here its not the aim, is the false assumptions people make.
Just because you are DECENT playing Mcree you will not OUTPLAY everytime a GOOD Junkrat. Period.
That happens with many other heroes. Just because you are using a high skill capped hero, that doesnt grant you the “advantage”, YOU have to perform at the level that hero requires.
The example with Moira and Mcree made me cry out laughing omg. Mcree literally takes just 1 body shot and a headshot to make Moira explode. Oh you cant do it ? too bad, that hero is too much for you, dont blame moira because the player using her outplayed you.
Long range : Get near a corner and force her LoS
Short range : Body shot, flash, Headshot. Easy as pie.
Dont be mistaken, if you cant beat a Moira with Mcree, its not a game design fault, you got outplayed because of your bad positioning or bad aim. Blaming game design for getting outplayed in 2018 LUL
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Some heroes do objectively take less skill than others which is what people have to accept. For example, Genji requires tons of mechanical skill for different reasons and Torb is… well… put a turret down, shoot through a choke, gg.
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Bingo. Which is why I said earlier that if people had as much skill as they demand junkrat, Moira, mercy, etc etc players have they would out perform them on heroes like mccree, tracer, genji and so on. No one ever wants to take ownership for losing though. It’s always someone else’s fault.
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A rock user will also die if he slips, thus the sword is much better than a rock.
How? Its harder to use and offers no significant advantage. Its also harder to slip while using a mace since its more dependant on power stances than balance stances.
Don’t try to talk sense. Moira is the epitomy of skill for most on this forum.
In a game with so many heroes, it is just factual that some are easier than others.
This weird belief they all equally have their own difficulty is stretching to say the least
Its not a fallacy, its a fact. Aim is not something different from others skills. You dont win games by having aim, but aim combined with other skills wins you games. For this reason mechanically forgiving heroes have lower skill floor, since they dont require aim, but need same other skills mechanically heavy heroes need on top of aim.
Fallacy, hovewer, is that no aim heroes are overpowered, because they start to fall hard in high ranks since they cant headshot and thus cant come even close in burst/damage potential to heroes who can. And all problems in lower ranks could be fixed by playing better.
We were talking about a ROCK not a mace…
Here’s the large problem, no one has been able to correctly measure skill. If there was some grand list of all the skills needed in Overwatch with values assigned to each of them and then assign values of those values to each of the characters, then it would be a lot easier. To this day throughout every FPS I’ve played no one was able to make such a thing, not with any accuracy of course.
My hero = 100
Your hero = 1
/sarcasm
That’s not the best attempt but it’s not the worst one I’ve seen, lol.
I’ve actually studied swordfighting, so brace yourself for this one.
The use of a sword requires coordination and use of your entire body, from the way your feet are placed, your toes are pointed, and the way your knees are bent. Just a slight variation on this can wind up with you having no force behind your swing, missing your swing, or being left too wide open for a counter. Even the placement of your pinky finger is vastly important to how strong your swordplay will be. (This, traditionally, is why samurai cut off their pinky fingers as punishment–they were literally sacrificing a massive chunk of their skill as a swordsman to prove how sorry they were.)
An average person fighting with a rock doesn’t need to think about any of that. He just picks up the rock & smashes. Sure, he could slip and fall too, but the movement of his body isn’t as precise as a swordsman’s needs to be. A slight variation isn’t going to instantly throw off the entirety of his attack style like just a slight change in ground elevation or positioning is going to affect the use of a sword.
The more difficult it is to master a skill, the more difficult that skill is to adapt to inconsistencies.
As Evilroy said, this is the reason that mass warfare typically favored simpler weapons. No matter how long it took you to learn mastery of a specific skill, a weapon that could achieve 60% of the same effect with none of the training required was always more effective. It was only a matter of time before your sword ace ran into the wrong end of a spear and rendered those decades of training moot.
Some of the lower skill heroes are too rewarding and a more mechanically demanding hero should be rewarded more than one that is not. For example, Junkrat isn’t a very hard hero to play, but the impact he has is huge.
When it comes down to it i really think the issue is that some elitists want to keep “no skill” mechanics out of all fps and fps like games, of which overwatch is the latter.
But the truth of the matter is that’s just not reasonable and everyone else do not care if you think all fps like games should be wholly dependent on aim as the end all be all, if thats how you feel you should go play a game that has these aspects, like csgo for example, while people who enjoy more diverse mechanics will play overwatch.