So you want to leave him in the worst version that he’s ever been since the game was released.
Because when he had 25 less hp, and a few of the other small nerfs, he also had a faster fire rate.
And his win rate was even worse than current. It was like 45% or lower.
And your changes are suggesting to leave him worse than that version.
Anyhow bad changes to just dumpster a hero.
Fixed that for you.
Seriously, why talk about a number of you wanna ignore the math behind it?
I feel the one thing they could try would be a spread deviation test on fth so you can’t nail all the shots from a +5m range on a tank, while still keeping it mostly the same in very short ranges.
That’s probably what I’d try touching first and foremost.
Just changing the spread a few degrees could accomplish that imo.
In the same website , McCree has the 7th lowest win rate in the game. Out of 32 heroes he is 26th place on the win % ranking.
h ttps://i.imgur.com/bn9BJmJ.jpg
Popularity and pick rate are not an indicator when it comes to determining if a hero is overpowered.
And the heroes the McCree complainers want to Buff are the top leaders in win rates like …
Sym is #1, Torb is #2, Doom is #3 and Bastion is #4, Junk rat is #8. And they call these heroes “underperforming” , just because of pick rates.
h ttps://i.imgur.com/w0RosoA.jpg
The people that like or main these heroes are the top McCree complainers on these forums.
Seems funny and hypocritical.
The only one ignoring the math is you. Win-rates in aggregate are calculated the same way across all heroes for all games for all active players. There is no statistical deviation worth considering here.
This “misleading” win-rate nonsense only comes into play when talking about small data pools… one player in one game who swapped heroes.
So somehow you’re more confident about that, than RobotWizard, a guy who works as an enterprise level data analyst and has built a similar stats website to overbuff for OWL data, who has had multiple conversions with the overbuff developer?
Heck, even the developers have said they don’t use winrate stats that includes mirrormatches, as it skews the data.
Sure sounds a lot like focusing on a number, but deliberately ignoring the math behind it.
Yes I am, and I think that maybe you should let RobotWizard chime in if he wants to instead of twisting his post to your own ends. I generally agree with RW, and I liked his analysis in general, but too many people are using it and still not understanding it. As he feared they would.
That doesn’t mean they don’t use the aggregate ladder win-rate for balance decisions. They just truncate the data that isn’t useful. They’ve proven that how Jeff said they balance in their marketing video dev update isn’t quite true. If one looks at who they actually adjust, you can infer how they actually make the majority of their balance decisions. And it’s based off of total ladder win-rates, with bias towards minimizing OWL and GM issues.
is he bigger then sym?
How does this discredit what I said?
McCree has a below 50% winrate compared to heroes that have higher pickrates than him like Rein, Zarya, Ana, Mercy (about the same pick rate as McCree).
And all those heroes that have a higher pick rate than McCree also have a higher win rate.
McCree is the 26th worst as far as win rates across all ranks. 25th in GM where all heroes are above 50% win rate.
How doesn any of this show McCree is overperforming and overpowered.
Yes. (20 chars to mars)
Apparently statistical data skewing isn’t a concept you can hold onto.
Every statistical data you can pull about OW is skewed in some way.
So where is your source of McCree being overpowered or overperforming other than “feelings” or your own “opinions”? Popularity?
Tiered of seeing him your games?
Im sure whatever stats you can pull out will also be skewed or biased to fit your agenda.
I agree. But that’s why I think she needs a power shift instead of 25 hp. You want a hero to be good in all ranks and make sure what makes a player better is skills and strategy.
The 25 hp would not make any change to her split being terrible in lower ranks but amazing in higher ranks.
Power shift would reduce her power in higher ranks where countering and strategy takes a lot of space while in lower ranks, you’d be able to defend yourself against dive fine.
Up close I think we can agree both heroes are good up close due to their combos.
200 hp or 225 wouldn’t change anything when all you need is 1 combo with a stun.
And roll is really more than enough to escape the tanks so only the dps who can be melted by that combo are a thing…
Range is mostly their problem.
Junkrat already has bigger head which makes a kill easier for most ranged heroes.
If you want to move with him you need to place a mine and then activate it, which then send you in a predictable movement towards the sky.
With all honesty I think Mccree’s mobility is probably the better one out of the 2… Especially with his smaller head.
Both aren’t consistent at all above 20 meters… Junkrat might work better in term of range if played on high ground but overall they have around the same range.
Junkrat’s traps and mines only reach that range as well…
Hanzo’s storm arrows might reach longer range but unless you focus a tank you’re gonna have a hard time hitting anything with them…
There are more than enough players who complain about Hanzo’s arrows being inconsistent and it’s all because he’s a medium range hero and not a long range.
Either way I think Junkrat is probably the best example having a primary that works around the same range and a kit that only effect enemies up close.
So only Genji and Tracer might fit here. But even before the changes Mccree was an amazing counter for Tracer.
Mccree’s focus is mostly on his flash bang against these 2 considering one shot may not be enough.
So rather than helping him stall longer, the focus then should be on his flash bang not being effective enough.
I think a big problem with the game is how they overall treat the game…
Right now it really looks like they try to make the game both normal fps and also a strategy game about teams, compositions,synergies and countering.
But in reality they just create a giant mess.
If this game is a normal fps then Tracer is broken for sure considering she has the same damage as any other hit scan but also the mobility to avoid 1/2 the damage if not more.
If this game is a strategy game then why most projectile,melee and beams heroes have proper countering and team reliant while most hit scans enjoy more independent kit? It just makes it so if a hero (like Tracer for example) has a lot of counters from the projectile role than the hero would be op due to lack of play from this role. (Stuff like Torbjorn’s turrets, Pharah’s flight and Junkrat’s trap+shots in theory should all be an easy answer to Tracer but these heroes see close to no focus from the devs…)
Either way, right now Tracer just becomes too much of a problem with hit scans becoming the main heroes and her counters relying a lot on stuff like shields and healing in order to be played all with ignorance from the devs…
But isn’t that a bit problematic when some heroes are niche? They would have very little pick rate but very high win rate.
Same goes to too useful heroes considering both team will have them so their win rate would have to go down.
Mccree has 2 main counters in the game that were dominating the competitive scene for years. Snipers and shields.
Both were recently nerfed while he got buffed.
ofcourse a hero would be bad when his kit is useless against the current situation in the game.
It’s like putting Widow in a game where characters have no heads and high mobility.
When a hero is too good or too bad you need to think why, not just buff random stuff and nerf others…
I personally think Mccree’s job is simply medium-close range brawler that counters divers using cc and high burst shots.
He always saw play when Tracer saw play for an obvious reason, but when shields & snipers were a thing he saw noting.
Not by much but yes.
You are literally agreeing with my statement here. Unless you meant to post otherwise. But you’re just stating again that both pick rate and win rate need consideration to be of value. Niche heroes win-rates are high, but they’re niche so they probably aren’t OP and just saying they have a high win rate and they need nerfs would be silly.
Well what is utterly ridiculous is when people are throwing out all these nerfs to McCree without giving him anything in return that will leave him worst then when he had the faster fire rate and 200 hp and a 47% win rate.
I even proposed some tweaks from McCree that will leave them slightly weaker than when he had the faster fire rate and people still didn’t like it.
Meaning what they want, is to just dumpster McCree to the point to not see him in their games anymore.
The changes I want.
200 hp
Nerf stun duration from 0.8 to 0.7
Nerf FTH damage to 45 per bullet.
Increase fire rate to 0.46, (still slower than when it was 0.42)
And reduce his head hitbox by a bit.
That’s it.
That is a slightly worst version that when he had a 47% win percentage and a much faster fire rate.
Yet McCree haters do not want that and want him even weaker than when he had a faster fire rate and bad win %.
Which is complete nonsense.
Three second CD on Fan the Hammer after using Roll.
Still allows him to use Flash+Fan defensively, he can still kill targets after Roll+Flash by using his primary. Loses the ability to shred barriers because of the global barrier nerf.
Three second cooldown on Hog’s hook after his secondary.
Still allows him to use hook-shoot defensively, he can still kill targets after Hook by using his primary. Loses the ability to shred barriers because of the global barrier nerf.
Satire aside, as a tank I’m more worried about Hog than McCree as far as shield break goes. Hog does tremendous damage to shields with his secondary and then just hooks you into his team and chunks most of your health away as soon as they break. McCree is a kitten by comparison.
Maybe I understood you wrong.
I understood that you have to use both pick rate and win rate together to understand the situation and not just one.
But if that’s the case then there are some problematic situations…
High win rate+ high pick rate= off meta picks. They are strong but aren’t in every match so they can usually gain a lot of value
High win rate+ low pick rate= The main meta picks. You can’t have high win rate when you have to fight yourself, one has to lose in most games…
Low pick rate+ high win rate= niche heroes. Although the lower ones are also not in a good state tbh but some heroes like Torb or Sombra are overall really fine or close to fine
Low pick rate+low win rate= F tier heroes for the rank. Not even good as niche most of the times.
I’m not saying you’re wrong or right, just that all the stats overall tend to rely a lot on meta, skill,viability and balancing.
So even if you rely on both the discussions can a lot of time be useless when talking about a hero. Only about its state in the current state of the specific rank and even then without explaining why.
Just wanted to bring a point. Less agreeing or disagreeing.
You kind of killed the combo for the hero… A big part of the hero is his fan the hammer combo.
I just see no reason to take away power from his most important part of his kit when you can touch weaker stuff.
Don’t involve me in that. I personally don’t really hate Mccree. I enjoy abusing his big head.
I don’t think he’s too strong but 225 hp makes no sense to me and if fan the hammer combo is a problem I would prefer making sure he keeps the combo but has less damage with it alone rather than nerfing his all personality…
And tbh that one is a softer version, at first I wanted to touch his fall off damage and decrease it from 50% down to 33% but I knew a lot of fps only players would be angry with that so I decided to remove it…
At the end of the day, each hero needs to be weaker or stronger in different aspect and if Mccree is currently too strong then he needs the right nerf for the problem.
I’m not saying my changes are perfect but its the best I could have done without harming his chance to get a kill combo on something like Reaper. (Sure his combo might do 300 damage but even now sometimes heroes like Reaper or Mei tend to escape before the combo is over, he really doesn’t a weaker and shorter combo… That would be killed the hero)
Idk, I must say I’m kind of afraid of adding cool downs that stuff that don’t need cool downs. It’s already ruined a lot of Sigma for me… Don’t want it to happen for Mccree as well.
Either way I do think that if a barrier is 20 meters from you or less when you play a slow hero, then they should be destroyed.
If it’s too much we need to think about a way that would keep his combo while lowering the damage.
If you don’t like my idea we can try other stuff like longer stun but longer recovery between shots of fan the hammer or adding a recovery to fan the hammer or reducing the range of fan the hammer from 20 meters down to 15.
Cool down might be enough, I just personally don’t like the idea. It feels to me a bit… unnatural for the hero… And just adds a bit of a punishment for a hero that would probably struggle a lot the second snipers and shields are back.
I don’t particularly care for FTH. I use it only under certain circumstances. I dont have an issue with it either but people seem to hate the low skill McCrees abusing it all game.
The most important part of McCrees kit is his left click. It has always been.
I see you missed the genius of my changes. My changes shift his power back to his left click and with the reduction of 25 hp also make him easier to kill, so with 200hp and with the reduction of his head hitbox, this also helps him not die super easy at the same time.
Also the reduction of stun duration , means bad McCrees cant abuse FTH as much , especially with it having less damage , and more skilled McCrees going for 2 head shots with the slightly faster fire rate.
All my changes have meaning.
The most important change in my tweaks is for the 0.46 fire rate. Without it , any McCree nerf to current would leave him in a trash state.
Anything you can do with Fan the Hammer you can do with M1 though. Unlike Sigma, FtH really isn’t main part of his kit. FtH really isn’t going to help him with snipers (he’s not really meant to go toe to toe with them anyway) and barriers have been nerfed so much that they die incredibly fast.
The cooldown would only be applied after Roll so you can’t Roll+Fan or Fan+Roll+Fan. You can still Roll+Primary or Fan+Roll.