My perspective on fixing Mccree

General Discussion
1

Since a lot of you mentioned the subject already I decided- why not trying it myself.

In order to fix Mccree we need a change that wouldn’t destroy what the hero is about ("a brawler [medium range] with anti aggression tool) while also fixing his current problems.

So my ideas are:

  • Hp nerfed from 225 down to 200
  • Reload time increased from 1.2 seconds up to 1.4 seconds

Explanasion: Currently Mccree kind of over performs in 2 different ways,

  1. His primary fire’s recovery doesn’t really line up with other dps with a similar weapon…
  2. Putting too much pressure up close

Fan the hammer might be a strong ability but it should be a pretty strong one in order to punish aggression and combo with flash bang. In order to nerf the ability without nerfing the combo (that already lets 250 hp targets escape sometimes…) I decided to increase reload time in order to make the off time between fan the hammer longer and by that nerfing the pressure fan the hammer does without haring his combo.

As for his hp, I really think 25 hp is just a lazy way of balancing… No hero currently who got the 25 hp treatment really deserved it. I don’t mind explaining that if needed but overall if mccree needed help with his survive ability then playing around with his kit stats would be enough, no real reason for 25 hp except for unneeded buff.

6 Likes
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Yep, I agree, could even tolerate the roll revert too.

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Let me ask you something before I proceed to bash you (joke). Do you know the reason they gave him 225hp?

Same question, do you know why they buffed his reload time?

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brig, sym, and mccree.

Please explain why they don’t need it.

5

They buffed him because of the same reason they buff any other hero.

When a hero under performs they give it a buff to make it better.

I played the previous versions of mccree and I’m well aware of his old balance.

But it’s not like I’m going full revert.

Before reload was 1.5, now its 1.2. I’m trying to find the perfect number where he doesn’t spend too much time reloading but also can’t shoot too often.
So I’m not going with 1.5 back but trying 1.4 is fair.

If it’s too much we can try 1.3 but the important point is that a small nerf to reload will not return him back to where he was considering it’s not a full revert.

As for his hp.
Mccree doesn’t have to fight stuff or ranges similar dps with similar hp such as Junkrat or Hanzo don’t have to.

The system is pretty simple.

  • If you fight up close without enough mobility you deserve 250 hp in order to do your job without instantly dying.
  • If you fight with enough range to use protections you deserve 200 hp.

Some exceptions are Tracer who is so small and so mobile she needed 150 in order to make her a glass cannon.
Bastion who is too big and stationary to survive with 250 hp.
And Torbjorn who’s more head than body.

Mccree’s problems comes from the fact he’s both a hit scan who’s about focusing targets at mid range but also an anti diver which means in theory he needs more hp in order to survive a dive. Which forces him to choose between 200 hp but weaker to dive or 250hp but becoming op unless his medium range damage is nerfed.
That’s why they went with 225 hp which again, I think is a bad decision.
A much better path can be just putting more focus on his kit with 200 hp in order to make sure he can fill both roles without being too good in any of them.
Strong combo with defensive roll but also a decent damage from medium range.

Sure.

Brigitte

For Brig, the survive ability problem comes from from her having a lot of heal with high defenses which means she can survive for longer providing more heal.
The more you can survive the higher value she will get which is why she’s good in high ranks but terrible in lower ranks.
225 hp just ignores the problem and would make her much stronger on higher ranks without fixing her for lower ranks…

A much better solution would be shifting her more towards armor.
So for her hp specifically trying 100 hp-100 armor. Against dive she would be very strong but against heroes that should counter her like Mccree or Pharah she would be vurnable. Giving her a more specific place to be good at but making her very good at that (just like you wouldn’t take Lucio with a Bastion comp you wouldn’t take Brigitte in a comp that can’t provide her the cover).
So if you shift more power into her armor while reducing her healing (self heal can stay as this one is less value for the team and more defense for her but team’s heal should be lower) you overall just make her more balanced for all sides.

Smmetra

Symmetra’s problem comes from her being a slow front liner without a real defensive ability. If you look at similar heroes to her that fight up close. They all have some sort of survive ability tool. Some have more hp, some have defensive ability and some got mobility.

Symmetra instead gets a teleport that doesn’t even fit the rest of her kit really well if you ask me… 225 supposed to give her the survive ability she needs but it doesn’t really solve her problem- just reduce it.

A better solution would be replacing teleport. Her kit since the start was already based a lot on turrets and charged beam. Stuff that counter brawl really well and some divers but weak to other divers and poke.

Instead of tp you can give her a new ability just like Torb got overload, Reaper got wrath form and Mei got cryo freeze.

Since she already has a lot of damage potential and a charged kit. All she needs to have is something that would take advantage over brawl.

It can be slowness, it can be blocking damage from one angle, it can even be in theory a charging overload that gives her more hp over time for limited time. I’m just giving ideas. But overall while extra is help its not a solution.

Mccree

The easiest one of them all. Just for comparison lets look at Junkrat. Same range, around the same body (Mccree having slightly bigger hit box but Junkrat having slightly bigger head).
Both use cc to secure kills and got fairly bursty damage although Junkrat has more burst in his primary fire while Mccree got higher damage potential in his secondary.

Both heroes have hit boxes and synergies that just scream “use me with a tank”.

So why is Junkrat balanced with 200 hp and McCree not?

Mccree’s problem mostly comes from the fact some players except him to be similar to Soldier:76 or Widow in term of medium-long range hit scan while others except him to be more like Torb or Junkrat in term of medium range anti dive/aggression.

So with 200 hp he can’t stand against dive for too long and with 250 hp he’s too good for range.

Instead of going with the middle I think they just need to pick a more clear direction- according to his kit the direction should be putting pressure from medium range until the aggression comes and then use his combo to completely stop it quickly.

So his damage shouldn’t be too good from range but it should do some damage, so less reload fits that well. As for up close, his stun combo already does its job well… Idk why he should get more hp…

With all seriousness, I played Mccree before and after the buffs. Mccree’s main problems were his slow fire rate.

Never experimented any problems with survive ability unless I tried challanging my counters from range.

5 Likes
6

Giving him two nerfs and making him objectively worse than he was when he was considered a trash tier pick is absolutely not by any stretch of the imagination a proper “fix” for anything.

2 Likes
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How is he objectively worse than before?
He started seeing play when Tracer did too due to Brigitte getting nerfed.

Every time Tracer was good he saw some play too.

Not to mention that before shields were much more powerful and saw much more play making him objectively worse back then.

from 225 back to 200 is just a revert rather than a nerf and 1.4 reload is a small nerf but not as bad as he was with the 1.5.

The game’s changing and so should the heroes… You can’t expect something that is weak to range and damage to see any play during double shields or goats.

1 Like
8

Your proposal is:

  • 200 HP
  • 1.4s Reload

Prior to his HP buff he used to be:

  • 200HP
  • 1.5s reload
  • 0.42s fire rate

and he was trash tier - one of the lowest picked and one of the worst win rates literally across the board.

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First, Brigitte was nerfed as well giving Tracer more space to play making Mccree stronger

And second, shields & snipers were nerfed during the same time as well making Mccree even stronger. Both of his counters got nerfed while what he countered got buffed.

It’s like how people refer to Reaper being bad despite it getting play during double shields.

Hero’s are good or bad depending on the situation and it makes sense Mccree would be trash if the meta revolves around snipers and/or shields.

It’s a fact he saw a lot of play in the ladder during that time as well. The only thing that changed was higher tiers meta.

Besides, just like how Genji mains wanted faster fire speed but only by a small amount, 0.1 second reload can be a big difference.

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McCree has been bottom tier for years now, it wasn’t meta specific.

2 Likes
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What meta exactly gave Mccree a chance?

Goats? Too much hp and sustainability. Mccree counters speed and squishiness not protections and size.

Double snipers? He can easily be shot in his giant head.

Double shields? He doesn’t provide enough ranged damage to shield.

Meta picks are already more independent heroes which give heroes like Mccree or Torb less chance to shine in there.

The only difference is that the second Tracer was back to the meta Mccree returned instantly with her.

Widow was nerfed, Tracer got her fall off which made her viable and suddenly McCree got played.

I don’t think there was ever a meta where Tracer got picked but not Mccree.

To me it makes sense heroes would have more specific place and not just being viable always. When you make countering and synergy a factor, stuff like that happen.

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You’re just cherry picking hypothetical situations from previous metas to try and explain why he was bad. You’re overanalyzing. The answer is much simpler: It’s because he wasn’t good. There wasn’t some convenient reason in eveyr meta for the last 3+ years straight that made him a bottom tier pick.

Giving him a massive nerf on top of keeping his fire rate compensation nerf is quite literally dumpstering him. Nothing more than bias.

1 Like
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Ok but you didn’t answer the question so I will assume you don’t know the answer. The reason they buffed his reload is the same reason they buffed his fire rate before. McCree HAD a damage output problem, they tried with the fire rate but people found it annoying so they went another route and tried the reload, and it worked very well. Even with the current reload McCree is not even top 3 damage dealer in the game or eliminations, so there is nothing that suggest that that specific buff needs to be removed, he literally needs it to be competitive.

Ok, you don’t know the answer to this one either. His HP ws buffed because McCree is a very vulnerable hero that has a huge hitbox for his role, doesn’t have self sustain, defense or good mobility options, and he is loud af too. The HP is necessary for him to be competitive, he is as big if not bigger than heroes that have 250 HP so it’s fair that he has 225 HP. The HP will stay, that is the only one I can guarantee won’t go away, any McCree player will tell you how much it clicked for him. The only way they could take the extra HP back is if they reduce his hitboxes, otherwise it stays.

2 Likes
14

He needs 225 hp. Revert goats era FTH buff and his reload buff. This way Cree still has some survivability and the game is overall less frustrating for tanks.

2 Likes
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There’s a saying that applies to Overwatch. “Just because an enemy can’t hit you doesn’t mean they won’t.”

McCree’s balance won’t really matter until being shot around corners and through walls is no longer a thing. That goes for every hero, for that matter.

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But why should Mccree have a high damage otuput in the first place excactly that’s the problem I think most people miss.

His kit is clearly focusing around the close-medium range punishment.

His primary fire is just pure pressure to abuse divers mobility by putting pressure on them during the engagement and during the fight itself.

Up close you’ve got fan the hammer to put high pressure on and his stun and roll to avoid damage and punish mobility.

I think what most people miss is that this game can either be a full fps or a game of countering and synergies but not both.

How is that fair Mccree would be able to be effective in both medium range consistent pressure and up close while heroes like Junkrat who have very similar stats are forced to be very weak to some heroes like kiters or snipers.

So ofcourse Mccree had damage output problem when shields were so common, Mccree is the middle ground between Soldier to a sniper. He has faster fire rate than a sniper but he’s burstier than Soldier. so it’s fair he would also have the middle ground damage. But at the same time his kit is focused much more on the close range punishment meaning he deserves to have less power in his ranged damage similar to how Mei or Symm got much lower damage output from range despite being able to hit there.

If the players want to make that game more fps then many other heroes deserves some massive changes in order to remove harder countering like big heads, armor or low mobility+close range combo…

I just think it’s not fair expecting one hero to be niche while others get to be good anytime.

So overall I see no problem with Mcree having damage output problem from range, especially when his fan the hammer combo can increase his damage output by a lot.

You ask a very general questions, what do you expect me to answer exactly.
Why would a hero get more damage? Ofcourse because he lacks damage
Why would a hero get more hp? Because he needs more hp.

It doesn’t have to mean I agree with that statement.

The only difference is that unlike Mccree, most heroes with 250 hp play up close while mccree plays in the medium range.
Mei,Reaper,Doomfist all play in enemies faces, if they wouldn’t have 250 hp they would instantly die.
Mccree enjoys the benefit of medium range which allows him to use protections and healing without risking himself that much.

Junkrat & Pharah have to be the best heroes to compare him to considering they have around the same hit box size and Junkrat even plays in the same range. Both got 200 hp and are as wide as he is and count as balanced.

Junkrat is the 5th most played dps in gm this month which is a pretty respectable place.

Fan the hammer has a range of 20 meters pretty similar to Junkrat’s damage maybe a bit less but it does more damage.

The only difference is that people expect Mccree as a hit scan to survive alone much more and be played like a normal fps character.

People who play Junkrat or Pharah play them because of how they work and don’t expect them to act like something that came out from scgo while mccree players play him because of his playstyle.

Once again, I’m not saying it’s impossible to move the game towards a normal fps direction.
But then you need to rework most of the heroes in order to remove harder countering and niche options.

2 Likes
17

Nerf flash, nerf fan.
If it’s too much, make him shoot a bit faster.

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what about 1.35? no its not bigger then 1.5 and its not bigger then 1.4. it’s like 1.3 but with a 5 next to it

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imo, if you want to reduce his health then reduce his hitbox and crit box because they are abnormally large for his hero model. i would leave his reload speed alone since it’s not the problem, just revert the roll buff and nerf fth to 45.

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I mean, the exact number requires some testing. Worth testing.
I can’t really tell which one would be the best for the situation.

Junkrat and Pharah got the same size and they have 200 hp… The only reason heroes get 250 hp is when they stand up front and fighting in close range.
With some obvious exceptions like Torb who has a MASSIVE head or Bastion that has MASSIVE hit box and no mobility.

Any hero that fights from medium range with a normal hit box deserves medium range.

Mccree might have a big head but he’s a medium range brawler countering divers with cc.

No real reason to give him extra hp just because hit scan players expect hit scan heroes to be normal fps heroes while other heroes get stuck with weaknesses.

It’s either every hero being viable anytime or every hero having strengths and weaknesses.

But if Junkrat who has a bigger head and is considered balanced (5th most picked dps in gm) doesn’t need 200 hp so is Mccree…

No reason to take away power from his combo. Mccree is slow and only effective if enemies are willing to come up close and fight him for too long.

It’s already hard to finish 250 hp targets with his flashbang+fan the hammer combo after the flashbang duration nerf no need to make it even harder…

I personally aim for the hero to be scary due to his combo and his fan the hammer massive damage but I agree currently his fan the hammer total damage per second is too high so longer reload just makes sure he does less total damage with that.

By design he supposed to use his primary fire for bursty shots on medium range but the most focus goes to his combo.

So making sure Mccree is less general and more specific to anti aggression isn’t a bad thing as long that the game is focused so much on countering with most of the heroes in it…

1 Like