cant be said enough
im not sure how you fix that…not when the state of the game regardless of where it is…is always considered a dumpster fire…i cant think of a realistic scenario where the dynamic changes
Just keep changes coming. Doesn’t matter what one or two think it’s a dumbster fire - patch is pretty good right now actually - so we’re just rushing after a high. Things just need to be kept fresh.
And nerfing McCree, specifically FTH, would help a lot with tank TTK in the current patch, so it’s not like a meaningless change.
McCree isn’t killing tanks, he might be breaking shields. If he’s close enough to actually land a full fan on a tank, he’s past his own tanks and in the death zone of his target and the team behind it. Fan is a bad choice against tanks as well, given their large critboxes. Fan is 300 damage, 6 headshots are 840 damage. You’re trading 65% of your damage potential AND your mid-range advantage in order to fan a tank. What a waste of bullets.
That tank was also overextended and not in reach of peel from their own team or in reach of cover for when their shield pops if McCree is killing them. In the end, tanks still need to die at some point. If it’s not the enemy DPS that’s doing it, then who?
To quote myself:
I take issue with your premise that tank problems are caused by McCree’s and Hanzo’s DPS.
I’m more concerned about being displaced as a tank than about getting hit by damage. This is a positioning reliant game and displacement equals death. Doom, Ball, Pharah, and Mei displace.
Mei, Sombra, and Ana shut down my ability to defend myself or cut me off from support. No support as a tank equals death. No defensives as a tank equals death.
Almost forgot about Ana and her sleep and wonder nade. That really sucks as a tank. Her high healing up-time ALSO makes fighting AGAINST tanks incredibly frustrating as DPS, which requires stupid cheesy abilities and strats to shut down tanks as DPS and support. Which leads to tanks getting frustrated with stupid, cheesy DPS and support abilities. Because of Ana.
Reaper and McCree are basically irrelevant to tanks. Storm Arrow on Hanzo is a bit annoying but largely whatever. It’s all just damage. I can block damage.
McCree provides me a free kill on Roadhog, free 80 charge on Zarya, free dinks on Orisa, free shields on Sigma, Winston’s bubble is pointless to pop with fan-fan, Ball can farm McCree, and I can chase him down after he blows everything on my armor and shield with Rein. All the while he’s feeding my support’s ultimates with mostly trash damage.
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I understand the eternal cycle of disliking meta heroes, but we would need bigger changes to truly see something different. There are set patterns in this game from the beginning.
For me I like variety and to improve the bottom heroes which seems to meet a lot of resistance when mentioned. Are we balancing based on performance or annoyance factor, because for many it comes down to how cancerous they feel a hero is.
Both. Shields are half the point.
Or his tanks are with him as well.
Why are you ignoring the most important aspect of this equation, which is time?
Primary fires once per 0.5s, FTH does so once 0.13s, 280 damage from 2 headshots take 0.5s + time to aim while FTH is just mindless spam for 300 damage in 0.65s with no need for crits.
Also FTH is far better barrier spam for shields under a certain distance (about a KOTH point-size distance) and that’s half the reason why it should be nerfed.
6 headshosts, lol, that would take 2.5s, an eternity in OW time. Even 3 primary fire shots is already more time than a full 300 damage FTH blast.
At some point, sure, just not instantly. Who? Don’t care, anyone. Not every damage is justifieable because things need to die. That’s just silly.
I am also concerned about that. I have multiple concerns. Thankfully CC has been nerfed quite a lot, Mei’s Wall and CC are nerfed, Hack and EMP nerfed, Sleep nerfed and so on. There’s a whole list, Jeff was generous.
Well, in the end, tanks need to get healed at some point. If it’s not the enemy support that’s doing it, then who? /s
Nah Ana is just a non-issue. High heal but single target, trades for damage, utilities on high cooldown and leave her vulneable. I’m more troubled by Bap at the moment but that’s another conversation alltogether.
You’re right about Reaper. Yes, he is irrelevant to tanks, has been so since the armor revert.
However, Fan the Bow and Fan the Hammer are not, they’re the tank busters left in the server, on a class of their own that shouldn’t exist in the game at all and it’s not like I want to delete them. 45 damage FTH will do just fine, 50 is a leftover buff from GOATS era, shouldn’t even gotten past 2-2-2.
Mate you played with some bad McCrees, huh?
There’s a reason McCree is second most picked DPS in OWL and I promise you it’s not because Koreans like cowboys.
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Someone posted the OWL team fight stats a few days ago. McCree has a sub 50% team-fight win-rate there too, not just on ladder. The team that didn’t run him at all was the overall winner of OWL. Ashe/Tracer are meta in Asia which is where gaming is considered serious business.
We like to gloss over the little, yet important, details.
The better question is why does everyone feel the need to run McCree when he objectively is not a winning pick? There is something wrong in the game, and it’s not the cowboy. He’s the symptom, not the disease.
Obviously you know the answer, but to make it clear to everyone else who actually cares about the reasoning and isn’t just a crying for the sake of it, his match up spread is why he is an OWL staple. You don’t want to get into a counterpick war at higher levels because that is terrible for ult economy.
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Putting a cooldown on FtH, and reducing the damage or number of arrows on StormArrow, would make it a lot more desirable to play Tank.
Don’t really care what DPS get used in GM/OWL.
Because maybe, just maybe, the “muh winrate” arguments don’t matter.
Because really, if you don’t care about the math behind a number, it really questions why you keep talking about that number.
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Maybe they do? 
I’m one of about 5 people on this forum that actually bothers considering the math at all 
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Ryom, in a game where winning is the only goal, winrate doesn’t matter, what really matters is the perception of a hero. Ignore literally every stat but pickrate, because if you think about it, they are getting picked for a reason. That is the real big brain play, here.
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The difference is that the game is mostly balanced around 200 health, and 225 is enough to survive a lot more than just 200. Add in the fact that mcree at close range has a massive area stun, and insane burst damage, and suddenly it does matter that he is close.
Reaper doesnt have the burst, nor stun of mcree.
Mei takes several seconds of focus firing to stun, mcree’s is instant.
Sym’s damage has to be sustained for several seconds to even come close to mcree’s instant burst potential.
Mcree isnt even a close range hero, he is mid range, he is better at close range than these close range heroes.
Why is this so hard to understand?
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Uh huh…
A guy, who is professionally an enterprise level data analyst, who deals with terabytes of data on the regular, goes and interviews the overbuff dev about all the statistical skewing with winrate math, and your reply is.
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We also do that to our own detriment…that perception is usually not based on anything that’s actually quantifiable (and hell often clashes with the very data as Ryom was pointing out)…
And we do it regularly to…this post is due in large part with that…it doesn’t matter how balanced the game is once we start developing the idea that X is strong everything else gets thrown out the window even if the difference isn’t really there or is minuscule
The game will never be balanced because we don’t ever allow it the chance to ever get to that point…meta? Play meta? Nerf meta? What’s new meta? Play new meta…etc etc
I think player mentality is the single biggest detriment to the game…more than balance, more than matchmaking, more than cheating…we do not allow the game to be anything but stale
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Even if Geoff Goodman rubbed a magical lamp with his infinity gauntlet while reciting his wish to a fairy godmother for perfect balance, it wouldn’t matter. If the balance was objectively perfect with zero flaws… People would still complain.
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And would develop a meta anyway…or at least the idea of one
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Why don’t you let RobotWizard speak for himself? If he wants to debate me, he will. You act like he’s the only person here with an education. I’ve done “enterprise level” technical work as well. You aren’t impressing me.
Maybe stop trying to appeal to his ‘authority’ and speak for yourself instead? Unless you don’t feel up to the task? That’s the second time you’ve tried to speak for him. At least I’m willing to stand on my own two feet in a debate.
Who did you think clued RobotWizard into the Time component of winrates?
Or how McCree, Widow and Hanzo all have similar winrates. Because of mirroring, fast rounds with less playtime due to their “quick pickoff” playstyles, and a chunk getting taken out by draws.
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I don’t understand, are you implying that Tracer, Widow, Hanzo, and McCree are all getting mirrored. But also that McCree is somehow more dominant despite this? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. And then when other dps are picked into these heroes, they are just performing better… Because they aren’t mirrored? Despite these heroes being better.
I think you are just maintaining your conclusion as truth and that is why you think the data is nonsensically warped. Idk, man. You are beating around the bush instead of just directly explaining why McCree’s winrate is invalid.
Basically none of his stats are good in any context except for that pickrate.
In GM, how is map specific mirroring so strange?
It’s less about it being invalid, as it’s irrelevant.
Especially when the heroes that would replace him all have similar winrates.
As for Tracer, obvious fast games.
But with Brig, who used to always have high winrates, it would appear she’s better at enabling Dive, than blocking Dive nowadays.
Bap? Just used for everything, so he gets heavily mirrored.
Yeah basically.
Winrate is more of an expression of how fast or slow the hero affects the duration of the match.
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