My opinion on Jayne's statements: he is wrong and disconnected


#1

O respect Jayne and his game knowledge and no I don’t think he’s trash or anything. But what I do think is that he’s wrong aboit a lot of statements and ideas/opinions on low ranks.

The main points I want to discuss:

‘If you do something in X-rank because it works in that rank, that’s why you’re in X-rank!’

‘If you cheese your way out of a rank by playing a cheesy hero (mentionned due to reaper’s current ptr buffs probably allowing players to cheese their way up and out of gold probably) you will peak at some point and not climb any further and only temporarily boost/inflate your SR’.

I take his words very seriously and he aspired me to put more work into OW and try to be better because him talking makes you want to play the game he talks about. But the thing is: the game the common pleb like us plays and the high competitive and pro scene are 2 totally different games.

I still do tons of mistake and no I do not consider myself to be a master or above. But recently I’ve been working on improving: recording my games, watch the footage, look for mistakes and work on them, spend more time warming up, work on mechanical skill and execution, learn the match ups, use cover, train to use the kill feed’s info.

But why? Yes in higher ranks that’s what people do. But in lower ranks? It’s a wasteland of people wirh various skillsets.

So to the first point of jayne according to which doing something in a rank because it works there is what makes you stay in that rank:
I stopped doing that, and I’m careful about enemy players doing that. But I often have teammates who still fall for it. And if two of my teammates get killed because of that, it still means a lost teamfight, or maybe even game if they keep falling for it the entire match. Maybe that guy’s strategy won’t work forever above gold, but it still got him out of there where he can then adapt his strat to something else. I can try cover my mistakes to a certain point, but I can’t cover for my teammates as well.

This argument is based a lot on the fact that you play as teams and work together, communicate and you all have a specific skillset as members of Xrank. But the low/midranks are plagued. The game seems to not want to hurt anyone’s feelings by putting everyone in midtier. I do not believe that 50+% of the playerbase are midtier and there’s hardly any bronze players. The division of the mid tier is poorly done. So in gold you could have a guy who is there becaude he’s slightly mecha ically gifted but barely knows what an ult does. A lvl 25 joining ranked will 90% of the time hit high silver-low plat. And there’s no way he’ll have the knowledge and experience of a gold player who’s been playing since season 1.

This X rank specific strat doesn’t need to work on the whole team but just one or two guys in order to work out and get the win.

Let’s take my case: a few days ago I played 8 matches in a row, and I wasn’t in it in order to win, so it’s not like losing was tilting me in any way, indeed, looking at the footage my personal performance did not drop too much (sometimes I just couldn’t build any synergy with the team and I still don’t know what to do in those cases) but I won 1 game of 8. What happened? I hardly played/participated! Why?

Do you know how many games in gold are decided by the first fight outcome? I don’t know the specific numbers but I would love to. Here’s what happens for me: if my team gets killed in various intervals on the first fight, we lose the game without taking a songle point most of the time. Why? Because the trickling starts IMMEDIATELY.

BTW: i’m console, so there’s no chat except the comm wheel and voice chat which hardly anyome joins in mid tier except to insult your family 9/10 times.

So players trickle in, don’t see that 3 teammates just got killed and go 1v6.
I don’t play during that time because I’m spamming group up in the hopes that they’ll see and listen. It didn’t happen that day in 8 games. I’m not kidding, my team kept rushing to the poi t as if it were OT all the time and died immediately. I was watching them autopilot to the point and die. The best conditions we had was a 3v6 at a time because of the coincidental same respawn of twp other players which I joined because I knew that would be the best I would get to group together. Otherwise I would probably have been kivked for inactivity.

I don’t even know if people in mid tiers see the killfeed. I think it just blended in the games HUD and they don’t see anything unless it’s a triple+ kill.

Peel is an unknown concept as well for us low ranks. Gold matches are most of the time decided by one man’s lucky shot: do you manage to kill the whole team or enough of them with your ult or an ability? Good, now your whole team can regroup on point and finally you’re engaging as a team again, if you don’t, well keep trickling in until the time runs out.

I still have a lot to say but I honestly have doubts anyone will read this, much less have jayne see this. So I’ll stop here for now and just say, the games played in midrank and the knowledge Jayne has of the game in pro scene does not apply, it is not the same and thus, I do not agree and don’t think his mentionned points really apply. At least not practically. In theory what he says makes a lot of sense. But as a certain someone said:

Sounds good, doesn’t work.


#2

Can someone summarize?


#3

This isn’t about communication or teamwork. This is about doing outright stupid things like going for flash fan flanks the entire game and somehow not being punished for it.


#4

Reaper is good in Gold.
Reaper isn’t good in GM.


#5

who actually cares if reaper is a good pick in low ranks? at least then, when you’re getting destroyed by a reaper, you acknowledge that it’s due to your inability to counter him, rather than him being an actual good hero.


#6

He very regularly points out that abusing a certain mechanic will cause you to be helpless once it’s nerfed, but I always disagree with him on that. Being able to cheese you into a rank still forces you to learn how to adapt to how people in a different rank play.

I would even be so confident as to say spending a single month playing in GM (on a broken hero) is more valuable than spending multiple months playing in a lower skill bracket.


#7

i don’t even know how Reaper could be good in gold if McRightclick exist. You don’t need skill to stun+fth someone in close range


#8

This is 100% true though. If you abuse a particular, character, comp or combo to climb without actually improving your play, you’ll drop in rank as soon as that crutch is kicked out from under you. I don’t know if you were around the forums at the time, but Mercy’s Nerfs were a good sign of this.


#9

that is quite true though
If aiming only at the body and not getting headshots at all in a game on widow in silver works, Thats why you are in silver, youre not getting out before you headshot people.

Also very true, refrencing to the old broken mercy SR system, or the brig SR system, which when fixed made dozens of players drop down in sr and inable to climb back up.

in lower ranks you need to focus in your personal skill, in higher ranks you need to use the skills you learned in lower ranks in imploment them in team fights instead of various 1v1s.

Im gonna say here that those games, are the same in higher ranks. Coming from an overwatch youtuber who by their videos atleast show themselves being in GM said
“1/3rd of the games you play, is up to you to win/lose
1/3rd of the games whatever you do you cant win
1/3rd of the games whatever you do, you cant lose”
Which is to an extent true in almost every rank, including lower ranks.

But then he wouldnt be using the same strat to climb more, making Jaynes statement correct. They cant climb with that certain strat for forever.

Not really, those strats could be something like a brig going full dps and wrecking the enemy, doesnt need team communication for that.

The first placement system works like this: they put you against players of different skills. The first games are in mid tier because thats where most of the players are, if you win it boosts the SR youre getting by a little, and if you lose it takes some of it off. so if someone wins 5 and loses 5 first placements, theyre gonna be put to the mid tier, because thats where they won and lost as much. So their rank is represented by how well they played in those certain ranks.

But that X rank specific strat only works in that X rank, so until you climb, yes those cheese strats will work. And you should learn to use them for your advantage.

If you think before you start the game “im not in it to win” dont expect to win, youre already putting yourself in that mindset that youre gonna lose. so it changes your own perspective on whats gonna happen that game.

That could be the issue.

1/3rd of the games you just cant win.

This isnt exactly jaynes fault is it?

You should use Vc instead of text chat anyways. its easier to speak mid fight rather than stop everything youre doing to write “genji behind”

This doesnt even seem to have anything to with Jayne anymore, as youre just ranting about your experience in competitive.

Its quite ironic how disconnected from the game you are, since your arguments could be fixed with very simple fixes that you dont see yourself doing.


#10

I only can say that on low ranks, heros like briggite and reaper, are really good heros and needs a little effort.

The new reaper will be very opressive on low ranks.

And about console… I left ps4 because almost all matchs were reaper + briggite + pharahmercy. (Master rank)


#11

I said this in a different post, but the gap between gold and plat is huge. In gold it’s almost impossible to take the last point in a 2cp. In plat all of a sudden everyone groups up and 2cp doesn’t feel so miserable.


#12

Yeah the problem is that … he is not.
He does coach people to rank up and what he said is spot on accurate : Not because the direct meaning, but the implications from it.

Its kind of like the “dress for the job you want not the job you have”. If you keep doing the same mechanics that “work” on your rank, according to you (because if it did, consistently, you would be out of it) you will be destroyed the moment you climb and thats WHY you are still there.

When you abuse a specific mechanic to climb, your versatility will be close to none and you will actually be a detriment to your team the moment those mechanics get nerfed and that is a fact. It has been seen multiple times.

Nothing wrong with what he said imho.


#13

he’s right in this statement, you wont actually learn anything if you use something really cheese to gain sr, you just gain sr


#14

I read your wall of text and I want to say that Jayne is right lol


#15

Jayne said train properly and get gut. OP is good but still dead stuck in his rank because of his teammates lol.


#16

I agree most of the playerbase should be in bronze, game is designed to keep most people in mid ranks so as not to hurt their feels.
Get rid of mmr and dumb 1000sr matchmaking. While ever the game thinks 2 gold players is the same as 1 gm comp will be a joke.


#17

I’ve not seen very much of Jayne, I know in the past he has said a few things here and there that I disagree with.

I think we have to acknowledge that sometimes he’s going to say things that when you get down to the fine grain details are not inherently true.

He’s usually talking on videos or streams where he might not have enough time to discuss every single off-shoot of a scenario.
It’s very awkward in video format to prepend little warnings that the thing he’s describing might not translate directly to every viewer.

Obviously a statement of:

is not going to be universally true because there are plenty actions that work at all ranks. Doing actions that work at all ranks like “I get on the payload when I’m the only personal able to contest and it’s overtime” is probably not an action that’s keeping anyone in or out of any rank.

If we think a little more about what he’s probably trying to say here though, he’s probably pointing out that there are certain things that simply don’t work reliably as you climb the ranks and if you are unable to adapt as you attempt to climb and rely on those specific things then you will be unable to climb.
It’s pretty much just as you are saying, if a player adapts when the strategy is no longer sufficient then they can still climb but I think the point of the original statement is about players who are not adapting.

The second statement I feel is a bit more charged but there is a level of truth, players who rely heavily on a specific hero are much more susceptible to balance changes than players who are more flexible.
If the meta at a specific rank invalidates your hero then you can see sharp drops in SR or if your perception is a bit more pessimistic you could say that you were artificially held up by that hero’s power until that point.

Ultimately, if you are able to adapt and improve your own play then these statements aren’t really going to apply to you so much.
Knowing your opponent and just how much you can get away with is a big part of the battle and is often understated.

I think the big takeaway message is that you don’t want to rely on poor strategies just because the enemy lets you get away with them - It’s better to build a foundation of strong strategies that provide the enemy with less opportunity to punish you.
If you employ a poor strategy and the enemy punish you then the ripple effect of it failing might be exactly the reason certain players struggle to improve their win rate.


#18

It’s just that you can afford making those mistakes at those ranks.


#19

I’m going to reply to you as, opposed to other people you seem to be serious and have actually read and been understanding. So I’m wondering if I might have misunderstood what he said. Thing is, Jayne was using the ‘Xrank’ statement quite a bit lately. Maybe he did it like those ads where you get to see the full ad for a few weeks until they start showing you a 5-10s version of it which can only be correctly understood by those who saw the full ad.

In higher ranks it works to wait for the team to group up and attack together. However in gold and below especially that does not work. So if he meant to say specific things like Flankree, that’s one thing. Using tactics that work in gold don’t work above thus, you stay in gold. But the opposite doesn’t seem to apply as well:

If you behave or play like you would in ranks above, you’re not bound to climb either. I’m not the most mechanically gifted or skilled player and I’m far from pretending to be unless some people here immediately want to assume. But I can really thrive with Zenyatta in my rank. I will mess up a few ults and I can recognize that, but I often use clutch transes as well which lead to snowballing.

But lately I’m thinking of not even picking him up any longer because there is not a single transopportunity. As I said, the trickling is really an issue and when you have a team which constantly trickles in, a lot of heroes and strats that would work higher up the ladder a totally unviable. So maybe I was thinking to many steps ahead by interpreting from Jayne’s message that the opposite (behaving and playing like ranks above, or trying to at least) would eventually lead to better results but every time I work on that it fails terribly. I do see myself improving though, I die a lot less without because I use my environment and cover better but that’s not very helpful when you can’t convince your team to engage in at least 5v6( at this point I’ve stopped expecting 6v6 altogether tbh).

So to get back to that statement, yes, your widow example is correct and maybe I just have interpreted the message too far.

For the second statement I didn’t know the background idea was old mercy and brig, I thought it was that way in general because I think he said the same about Hog. Even though I don’t think you’re shooting yourself in the foot by playing hog. If you feed to much you won’t climb any way, but if you play him because of the solo potential he has (not having to rely heavily on your teammates through self heals, high hp pool, potential to get quick picks etc) I don’t think he’s a cheesy hero to use to climb. If you mess up positioning you’ll always get punished so in that sense I don’t think hog fits the description he used.

What I mean by ‘not in it to win’ is not that I expect losing, but my first priority is focusing on my playstyle and improving, if I lose, well so be it, but what I meant to say, losses were not tilting me because I was approwching my gaming session differently. Didn’t have time to flame or what because I was focusing on thinking instantly: why did I die? What did I do wrong? What should I have done? Should I have ulted? Why did I ult? Did it help? Etc.

When I say I hardly played I mesn I spent several seconds to almost a minute waiting for my team to finally group up yet they kept going in 1v6. Should I really go with one of these guys into a 2v6? I’m legit asking because if I don’t, I hardly get to play the match.

Didn’t say it was Jayne’s fault, but the point was to say that in that rank, because of the trickling, his idea is not as universally applicable as he says it is. Again this is with the idea that the ooposite of his statement ( which is coming out of my interpretation) were to be true.

I always join vc on console but there’s never people except those who mean to do things to your family.


#20

I try my best not to seem like the typical forum troll, since no one will gain anything from an argument of hostility :stuck_out_tongue:

But you can climb out of gold with those tactics, even if without them youd belong to gold, the best instance of this being the mercy SR exploit, where you could battle mercy, and lose only 2-5sr per game when lost, and gain up to 50 per win, so people would just go battle mercy and go from silver to masters in a season, after it was patched they fell back into low gold, and there are multiple tactics in every rank to climb with all the way up to GM.

Zenyatta isnt the best hero to play in lower elos for that exact reason, the best thing i could suggest to you that helps me climb even in diamond-masters, pick up moira and lucio, and learn them. You do amazing amounts of healing with an accessible DPS source with lucios gun, and moiras beam, although moiras beam doesnt do that much damage, but its easy enough to use to be very good in low elos. Just remember to focus healing over damage.

For this id say play especially a lot of lucio, because the trickling gets minimized when youre going with a speed boost behind your teammates, so you and the rest of the teammates catch up eventually, either that or play a tank like rein and try your best to shield the people who go in and trickle.

I think he means if youre in gold, play like a plat, if youre silver, play like a gold, etc, which would work. Thats how i eventually got out of silver in my early days, not like if youre silver play like a GM.

You might be going a step too far, if youre in gold , try to play like a low plat, fix your positioning, stay with the rest of the team as much as you can, use all the combos you can, and try to make callouts for your team.
or on heroes like zenyatta, try to learn to aim, aim on zen will help you a lot on other heroes aswell such as mei, hanzo, or mccree.

For this i would highly suggest LFG for you, since groups tend to still stay together more than other people, and playing in a group could get you that experience you need in playing proper team fights.

I think he meant the old hog, as he used to be wildly overpowered back in seasons 2-4 at least so it was easy to climb with.
But the idea is that theres always an ability/strat that can be abused and gain SR with, atm it would probably be brig still, or maybe fanthehammercree.

But he used to, as he had 100% reliable oneshots, every shot could oneshot a squishie, and sometimes even people like orisa or winston, so you could just flank and every time end up with a kill.

This is still quite a bad mentality, if you expect to lose, you wont play as well as you can.
You should always, every single game shoot to win, and expect nothing less.

You can be upset and still not flame, thats how most pro’s and masters, and GM’s usually handle their games.

the best you can do is probably go with the hog/dva/rein if youre a healer, and follow them around in games such as that one.

But this wasnt the point of that, it just seemed like you were going on a rant about gold, instead of pushing a point.

aside from the 12 year old kids who always have sexual intercourse with your mother, thats still the best shot you have at having any sort of comms.