…MMR WILL NOT LET AN ACCOUNT with it’s data history to ‘EASILY’ PUSH OUT OF BRONZE no matter your skill level. Even if you DID PUSH OUT, which IS POSSIBLE, it will take ungodly amounts of hours just to get out. Rather, if MMR did NOT EXIST, it wouldn’t take that long for a diamond skill player to ‘easily push out’ of bronze as you say. You’re more likely to want to buy an alt account and ‘start over’, which is precisely what this is designed to do. It’s FAKE COMPETITION. A player who started the game with a history of bad statistics b/c they started out like that to learn the game and have progressed immensely and can now play as if they were a diamond will take FOREVER to get out solo queueing b/c of the way MMR is designed. My entire THESIS is simply this: MMR is NOT COMPETITION. IT’S FAKE COMPETITION. It’s made for monetary reasons.
It was -3 to +3 in the jeff+seagull vid. This could mean many things. Some have said it’s like inter-quartile range. It’s symmetric and renormalizable so you could shift to [0,1] and have the same convo. We also know it’s a many-to-one mapping (like a multi-param regression classifier would do). So it takes all your hidden stuff and weights and tunes and zips it down to a real on (0,1). It’s probably multi-moment with not just first order moments (like mean) but also variance (so lower mmr means you have more irregular play not just less good play).
That’s some of the 101 on mmr (well-known to those who study these sytems). According to the patents, we suspect there is also a KSR component (a more volatile mmr called knapsack rating) which is basically how much of above/below a 1/6th of the team you are budgeted for.
Someone on carry duty is getting a live-session KSR dialed-in to do basically 1/2 the team’s work for that win. A silly way to climb.
That doesn’t justify rigging matches around MMR for so-called “closeness=balance”. That’s tampering with natural odds and random outcomes. It purportedly improves “match quality” (subjective) at the cost of less quantity (longer queues and more constraint satisfaction).
Forcing games necessarily ruins the actual laddering metric - the SR. MMR makes the ranks, payouts, and rewards. It makes the final observable classification essentially moot.
If you defend/support mmr-rigging you are basically agreeing to anti-competitive practice, and as a corollary admitting the ladder ranks are meaningless (therefore the ecosystem is a sham).
You’ll notice that if you undergo a long win streak, you’ll be met with a long losing streak. Then somewhere in between a semi-even win/loss ratio of a batch of matches you play. MMR is designed where when you win TOO much, you’ll be placed in a match designed/handicapped for you to LOSE. How is this real competition? It isn’t. #RemoveMMRfromcompetitive
Just that the average Overwatch player isn’t interested in performance psychology.
They want to log in, have fun, blow some steam and win some games.
I highly doubt that this is the case.
Barely anyone cares enough to even try to find out how MMR is working in Overwatch.
Removing something that most players don’t understand or in many cases don’t even know what it is or that Overwatch has it won’t cause an increase of the player base unless it noticeably improves the perceived match quality.
Contenders and OWL don’t use MMR, so I doubt that the eSports scene gives a damn.
If you have a winning streak that wasn’t the result of a sudden skill improvement, then you are the handicap that causes you to lose the following matches.
This also wouldn’t change if MMR was removed and matchmaking were purely based on SR.
What MMR does is, to reduce the amount and length of winning/losing streaks by placing you in more appropriate matches and adjusting your SR gain/loss so it gets corrected faster.
Im sorry, you just cant convince me that a diamond player could get stuck in bronze as a dps.
Im sure you can convince yourself that.
I have played in bronze and i have played in high gold and the skill difference is just huge.
You basing your skill level on some qm games you did with your buddies that are better is just anecdotal and probably highly biased for ego. Its natural. We all do it.
The reason why I didn’t respond to your question about what there is to gain is because it really shouldn’t have mattered because that’s not what I’m really trying to talk aobut. MMR is NOT competition. MMR, in fact, REMOVES competition from the game. This is the main entirety of what I’m arguing about.
This is partially incorrect. Even if you have a winning streak that IS the result of sudden skill improvement(s), you WILL be met with matches that will be designed for you to lose. This is what MMR does.
Bro…this is exactly why MMR removes GENUINE/REAL Competition. What you just said is the EXACT reason as to why MMR is FAKE COMPETITION. #RemoveMMRfromcompetitive
So another thread about people thinking they are better than they are.
MMR is almost equal to SR after a few games.
You are imagining a material difference in matchmaking using one score over another score.
The likelihood is that you wouldn’t even notice a difference.
And that you would still be in the same rank.
I’ve been in the process of making an alt account to take it down to bronze. I’m near masters peak on dps so we shall see. I have designed my alt to get down to bronze with the worse possible statistics. Yes I am throwing qp games to level 25. We shall see if mmr has any merit.
Sounds like they would enjoy non-comp.
Better yet, they could just play comp with that mindset and a non-rigged system would send them to where they belong without need for algorithmic handicapping. They’ll get stomped and drop and that will be that.
MMR protects the unskilled and handicaps the skilled. It ruins the skill-based meritocracy which you need to show provable integrity for if you’re going to label it as “competitive” contest.
Path2pro esports will still be a rigged sham. Players entering the ladder have expectation of natural, unrigged progression. No tampered lobbies no cherry-picked match selection around hidden criteria.
Play for the SR against others randomly pulled from similar SR.
SBMM, EOMM, and DDA have no place in ladder.
Leave comp if that’s not your cup of tea.
It’s Standard Deviations, and I’m fairly positive he confirmed it by saying basically everyone is contained within -3 to +3, because there is almost no population on the curve past that.
Ladder ranks are meaningless in a competitive sense. It’s just about finding an ‘even’ match across a team. Calling them rigged isn’t accurate though. While I prefer systems that reward wins instead of adjusting certainty, it’s not the same as rigging a match. Rigging a match implies intent. You’re just fighting certainty, not a willful influence.
My real objection to their system is that they’ve allowed too much rng into it. Throwers, smurfs, bots, letting people stack and others solo queue. This kind of system encourages grinding, and adding rng into it makes that worse.
A truly competitive system would have some kind of reset at the end of a season, some kind of standard for success and failure, and some kind of end goal. This doesn’t. It’s just a system to get equal teams, at the cost of everything else.
I’m still waiting on my win streak, and that sucker better be really long to make up for all these losses.
We actually won’t see because that’s like 1 data point, a personal “experience” (subjective) etc etc.
Better to argue and reason with algebraic params than personal experience or even selected numbers. MMR exists, it’s in the game, it rigs matches, and has no place in competitive ecosystem.
Like I said, you’re right when you say obtaining diamond player stats in bronze level is not the same as getting it facing diamond players. You’re ABSOLUTELY right about that. What I’m saying is, for an account that has a long history of bad statistics from learning the game to begin with, it will take an EXTREMELY long time (ungodly amounts of hours) to climb out due to MMR and not through genuine competition.
You’re probably right about my antic of me saying I can play like a diamond player. Regardless, that’s really besides the point that I’ve been trying to make. This is about MMR not being real competition and it’s designed for monetary reasons such as buying another alt account to ‘start over’ with your newly found skills.
not necessarily disagreeing with you as math or reverse engineering the game is probably the best way to determine how the system works. I was more replying to the other guy saying no way a diamond player could get stuck in bronze.
Thanks for doing this. I’m really curious to see as well. My Account alone has enough of those bronze level statistics. It would be interesting to see a high rank player rank up on my account, but to be honest, I’d rather do that myself so that idea is out of the picture. Please keep me posted if you don’t mind.
I’ll keep you updated I still have 8 levels left on it and it is taking very long to level.
haha good luck. I hope it comes too, but unfortunately, it bears no reflection on your actual performance, in my very strong opinion. I just don’t believe in the merits of MMR anymore as a reflection of a player’s skill and/or progression of skill.
Right, so equivalent to a k=2 standardized moment (wiki/Standardized_moment). It could be any stats or mappings you want under the sun. Who cares?
It won’t change the rigging=true property.
It is rigging 101 as per dictionary definition.
The terminology is spot-on.
It’s deceptive and dishonest because it’s hidden and most players have no knowledge they are being actively rigged. They go into the ladder with expectation of natural contest odds. The mmr rigs the contest odds (it’s non-deterministic but still rigging in a statistical sense).
So it’s rigging 101 clear as day.
We as a community need to get over ourselves and adopt the most accurate terminology.
I disagree here. Ladder ranks are everything in a competitive sense. For competitive integrity the metric must be fit-for-purpose: you are ranked, paid out, rewarded, and get all your fancy pixels based on the SR score and no lobbies tailored to your data.
Finding even match across team is a non-comp “fun-first” mechanism, that algorithmically handicaps and buffers away over/under performance. No place for it in a ranked ladder that brands itself as path2pro esports.
It matters if you want to convince people of the idea to remove MMR.
If there is nothing to gain out of it, then there is no reason to do it.
I gained 400 SR within a matter of days after upgrading from a 60 Hz to a 165 Hz monitor and managed to maintain my new rank without experiencing any kind of mysterious force that tried to drag me down again.
My performance improved noticeably and my rank got adjusted accordingly.
I still don’t see the benefits of your approach.
Even if you remove MMR and get a lucky winning streak you won’t be able to maintain that rank if you don’t belong there.
All that will happen is, that smurfs/alts wreck even more havoc and the competitive mode shifts a bit more from skill based to luck based.
That is besides the point. You could do that in mmr-free un-rigged SR-only system.
So what point are you trying to make? That you can climb in mmr system? Sure. But you can do that in SR system as well. So why bother with mmr rigging?
Eloquently said. Thank you.